Nimrod to go by March
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MRA4 - hope yet?
The Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton had the opportunity to fly on the first production Nimrod MRA4 aircraft on a recent visit to Warton. During a very successful 90 mins flight CAS saw each element of the mission system in action and even experienced first-hand, the agile handling of the aircraft from the flight deck.
On landing, CAS said: "It was a great flight and very, very useful for me to understand precisely what has been done to develop the capability and to make the aeroplane basically a weapon system of choice for the role we’re going to do. It does seem that actually the aeroplane is now ready to go into operational service, both from the point of view of the aircrew up the front and also the operators in the rear part. They understand the systems, the systems are now working and therefore the quality of what we’re going to get. Once we’ve got our own people properly trained it should be really good."
On landing, CAS said: "It was a great flight and very, very useful for me to understand precisely what has been done to develop the capability and to make the aeroplane basically a weapon system of choice for the role we’re going to do. It does seem that actually the aeroplane is now ready to go into operational service, both from the point of view of the aircrew up the front and also the operators in the rear part. They understand the systems, the systems are now working and therefore the quality of what we’re going to get. Once we’ve got our own people properly trained it should be really good."
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DV
Why would you think that the farewell to the MR2 would take place at Waddington? There will be a crew on RS120 (2hr standby) for SAR/Ops till 2359 on 31 Mar 10 at Kinloss! I believe that the landing of the last planned sortie - other than post OSD disposals - will kick off the hangar bash.
Duncs
Why would you think that the farewell to the MR2 would take place at Waddington? There will be a crew on RS120 (2hr standby) for SAR/Ops till 2359 on 31 Mar 10 at Kinloss! I believe that the landing of the last planned sortie - other than post OSD disposals - will kick off the hangar bash.
Duncs
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DV,
Re your post 153, the MRA4 hasn't 'gone' to Warton - that's where it is built (or at least completed AFAIK!). I don't think that any will come direct from Woodford.
The Nimrod MRA4 OCU is at Kinloss and currently converting aircrew.
Duncs
Re your post 153, the MRA4 hasn't 'gone' to Warton - that's where it is built (or at least completed AFAIK!). I don't think that any will come direct from Woodford.
The Nimrod MRA4 OCU is at Kinloss and currently converting aircrew.
Duncs
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Woodford also now has a potential grave yard for the Prototype MRA.4s
see here
Woodford 07/03
but at least the second production airframe has actually flown!
and see here
Nimrod at Manchester 08/03
V1
see here
Woodford 07/03
but at least the second production airframe has actually flown!
and see here
Nimrod at Manchester 08/03
V1
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With regards to where the initial training is to be carried out, please read the following article. It seems that as yet we do not have a Release to Service.
Nimrod MRA4 Declared 'Ready to Train' - BAE Systems
DV
Nimrod MRA4 Declared 'Ready to Train' - BAE Systems
DV
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MR2 out of service early, political or financial, you decide. I know which one I would go for.
sometimes you don't know what you've lost till it's gone as is safer now than ever.
Still waiting on Mr Brown or Ainsworth to visit.
sometimes you don't know what you've lost till it's gone as is safer now than ever.
Still waiting on Mr Brown or Ainsworth to visit.
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I for one wanted to hear that the MR2 had been made safe, then expected (naively) that it would remain in service while the MR4 came online, much as we transitioned from MR1 to MR2 (also while we were at war, funny old thing, innit?)
I would say that in all fairness that was probably the intention, then as more and more dirty washing was aired, particularly following the Haddon-Cave report, it became obvious that the money being spent was never going to result in a whiter than white MR2, so the plug was pulled.
I don't really see how anyone in the chain of command, or more appropriately the chain of decision, could be expected post coroner and pre H-C to realise that the MR2 would prove to be beyond redemption, so fixing it (provided it seemed to be economically viable versus operational requirements) made sense...then H-C showed that the required fix would be astronomically expensive and take so long that MR4 would be online anyway. To my mind this article was full of 20:20 hindsight, and is unfair... would everyone REALLY have been happy if MR2 had been withdrawn from service immediately after that dreadful day and the capability gap had been even longer?
Canning MR2 was, overall, a political decision I am sure - but economically it made a good deal of sense too. You really shouldn't castigate people for not making major decisions at the instant that becomes apparent only in hindsight 2 years down the line.
16 million quid, by the way, is probably what the Ministry of Silly Walks spends on paper clips every quarter.... the bankers cost us BILLIONS, a sense of scale might not go amiss.
Dave
(I do agree with the P&J caption, I too am beginning to regard the subject of the photo attached to that article as 'dreadful')
I would say that in all fairness that was probably the intention, then as more and more dirty washing was aired, particularly following the Haddon-Cave report, it became obvious that the money being spent was never going to result in a whiter than white MR2, so the plug was pulled.
I don't really see how anyone in the chain of command, or more appropriately the chain of decision, could be expected post coroner and pre H-C to realise that the MR2 would prove to be beyond redemption, so fixing it (provided it seemed to be economically viable versus operational requirements) made sense...then H-C showed that the required fix would be astronomically expensive and take so long that MR4 would be online anyway. To my mind this article was full of 20:20 hindsight, and is unfair... would everyone REALLY have been happy if MR2 had been withdrawn from service immediately after that dreadful day and the capability gap had been even longer?
Canning MR2 was, overall, a political decision I am sure - but economically it made a good deal of sense too. You really shouldn't castigate people for not making major decisions at the instant that becomes apparent only in hindsight 2 years down the line.
16 million quid, by the way, is probably what the Ministry of Silly Walks spends on paper clips every quarter.... the bankers cost us BILLIONS, a sense of scale might not go amiss.
Dave
(I do agree with the P&J caption, I too am beginning to regard the subject of the photo attached to that article as 'dreadful')
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Your contention then is that the Nimrod was beyond fixing, and therefore the initial decision to fix it so that operational capability could be restored was obviously flawed from the start, and that this was therefore a foolish decision, presumably?
I don't think, to be honest, you'll find that everyone agrees with that opinion.
I don't think, to be honest, you'll find that everyone agrees with that opinion.
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Because your question is founded on what I consider to be a false premise...similar to questions about whether one still beats ones wife.
New technical info from H-C, no, although I would say that until H-C the true scale of how much needed fixing was not clear, if that is in fact the case post H-C. I believe that there was a desire to provide two paths to safe operation of the MR2 post crash - (1) Identification and rectification of those items that posed a significant threat to the aircraft's ability to operate safely, and (2) changes in the way the aircraft was operated - eg cessation of AAR. Unfortunately the PR side of the equation was ignored, the RAF/MoD did not understand that even getting 1 and 2 right would not be enough, because they had lost the confidence of the public who would not accept that perhaps they had in fact now made the aircraft safe. Considering the aircraft's contribution in a number of roles over the decades I consider it a shame that it was seen to be simpler to retire the aircraft early and accept the capability gap.
New technical info from H-C, no, although I would say that until H-C the true scale of how much needed fixing was not clear, if that is in fact the case post H-C. I believe that there was a desire to provide two paths to safe operation of the MR2 post crash - (1) Identification and rectification of those items that posed a significant threat to the aircraft's ability to operate safely, and (2) changes in the way the aircraft was operated - eg cessation of AAR. Unfortunately the PR side of the equation was ignored, the RAF/MoD did not understand that even getting 1 and 2 right would not be enough, because they had lost the confidence of the public who would not accept that perhaps they had in fact now made the aircraft safe. Considering the aircraft's contribution in a number of roles over the decades I consider it a shame that it was seen to be simpler to retire the aircraft early and accept the capability gap.
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Jimmy Jones can 'suspect' all he wants. Maybe one day he will actually say something to the press that he 'knows for a fact' instead of making himself look silly to those who do know.
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davejb;
The defective items (hot air ducting) were known about in June 2005; 33 sections were identified as being "life expired and required replacement" by BAe Systems following the XV227 incident. Had the replacement programme been initiated then perhaps the Nimrod fleet could have been saved, along with 14 lives. The BOI appear to have turned a blind eye to the report, as they fail to mention it in their report, along with a recommendation to replace hydraulic pipe couplings.
DV
The defective items (hot air ducting) were known about in June 2005; 33 sections were identified as being "life expired and required replacement" by BAe Systems following the XV227 incident. Had the replacement programme been initiated then perhaps the Nimrod fleet could have been saved, along with 14 lives. The BOI appear to have turned a blind eye to the report, as they fail to mention it in their report, along with a recommendation to replace hydraulic pipe couplings.
DV
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...or isolation of the SCP. My point being that changes in the way the aircraft was operated would appear to have removed the danger, but the furore prevented that from being considered an adequate response. I'm not arguing that post 227 the right thing was done, but neither am I convinced that the correct thing has been done in the past couple of years.
MR2 is currently still flying, that it will shortly stop doing that is a PR/Political decision I suspect.
MR2 is currently still flying, that it will shortly stop doing that is a PR/Political decision I suspect.