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A400M first flight

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A400M first flight

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Old 12th Dec 2009, 07:48
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Commercial contract

I cannot see how Airbus can wriggle any more money out of their buyers.

A friend works for Airbus and he has said time and time again that this time Airbus have used a standard commercial contract for the A400M, there is to be no delays due to the customer changing his mind half way through the programme. They will deliver what was ordered on day one. Any mods that are required eg strengthened floor can be done but will be done after delivery as a separate programme.

They cannot have their cake and eat it! The delay is all of their own making, for once the MoD changing the goalposts is not the reason for the delay, therefore no way the taxpayers should pay more. Airbus can learn from the experience and undoubtedly will do better next time.
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 09:23
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Daddy Oh,

For the hardware, yes. For everything else, ie the infrastructure and personnel that make it work, well, not yet........
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 14:37
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Trumpet trousers

Quote:
so hopefully they are up shadowing the A400M today getting a few PR shots
Yes, they are
Can you post any?
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 14:48
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See A400M In a Class of its Own
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 15:09
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Plenty of room at Brize........the VC-10s and tristars will be long gone before whats left at Lyneham transfers
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 15:53
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Plenty of room at Brize........the VC-10s and tristars will be long gone before whats left at Lyneham transfers
Not so sure about that - Future Brize timeline has the C130 fleet arriving Jul 11

Don't think there will be enough space on the pan, never mind in the hangars!

Just as well the A400M will be nearly 3 years late then
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 16:46
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A class of it's own?

Yeah I guess, most others put jets on their large cargo aircraft.
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 17:22
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Too late, too exspensive and too slow.
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 18:25
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A400M is the airlifter of choice if:

You require an advanced tactical transport in a few years and money is of no concern;

You do not operate fleets of C130J's or C-17's and

Your procurement decisions are led by Euro political considerations.

However, if you urgently need a proven airlifter, already have C130J's, C-17's and no money....
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 18:42
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Too late, too exspensive and too slow.
Whilst the programme is indeed running late and costs have risen, I dispute the 'too slow' comment.

The 300KCAS speed was defined by the European Staff Requirement for a future military transport aircraft.

MSN001 achieved that speed on its first test flight.

Presumably, the window-lickers on this thread will accuse the ESR of being somehow 'led by Euro political considerations'?

Incidentally the 'jet' option was binned from the specification years ago as it was too inefficient for the ESR specification.
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 19:41
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Beag's, old boy

Just looking to see who's cage I could rattle. Looks like it was yours.

Plane looks fine, sure it will fly just fine as well.







a little bit faster if it had jets tho...
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 19:55
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West Coast, baffling really why Lockheed didn't put jets on the C-130. I mean, then it would go faster, what is it with these people????
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 20:20
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Pssss. the C130 isn't there to do strategic airlift. Besides it was prolly designed by the same people that designed the A400
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 21:07
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Westie, it's interesting to compare the 'Euroflag Solution 20' concept version of the 'FLA' (which had 4 turbofans) with the its descendant, the A400M.

Both were designed for a 300/M0.72 max speed requirement.

The jet version had a smaller cargo bay (length, width and height all smaller), it had a 32% smaller max payload, a 22% smaller MTOW, carried about 12 tonne less wing fuel....

I think the chaps with the computers have optimised the present design pretty well - the FLA Solution 20 concept was rather a dog.
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 22:25
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Beags,

3 questions.

What is the max altitude with cabalt restrained to 8K?

what is the expected Mach in the cruise at this level?

Do you think eurocontrol are going to have A400M holding up civilian traffic at this mach and alt, or do you think it will get held down like the J does?
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 22:38
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.72!!!!

I back out of my driveway faster than that.


The jet version had a smaller cargo bay
Really, I always thought the C17 was larger.


Oh, that version.
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Old 12th Dec 2009, 23:05
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Surely the real issue with the A400 is the price.
If the original price was 100MEuros, and now will go up (UK looking at getting 19 for the same money as originally supposed to be 25), then projected price now is 131MEuros. That is only 10% cheaper than a C-17. And who believes that Airbus will stick to current projected price.
Europe makes good stuff at times but mostly (always) too expensive?
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Old 13th Dec 2009, 01:04
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OK Equivocator.
I have a more accurate figure.
A400 13% cheaper than C-17!
By any measure A400 is very expensive compared to it's competition.
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Old 13th Dec 2009, 01:36
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And not forgetting the cost of tidying up any extra snags that are yet to be ironed, cost of training infrastructure, cost of admin (IPT, logistics) cost of seperate eng sections and associated executive....

I would really like the 400M in service, but it doesnt exactly look cost effective at a time we are seriously short of moolah.
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Old 13th Dec 2009, 02:06
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"West Coast, baffling really why Lockheed didn't put jets on the C-130''.

They did. It became the C141.
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