RAAF to Copenhagen
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Oh woe is me, the Labour government is responsible for everything bad in the world.
I remember the early/mid 80's when the commercial support program (CSP) was unvieled. Actually it could have been when Fraser was in power.
In any case I think that many in defence (especially the RAAF) would consider it has gone too far.
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On Condition Maintenance v's TBO
It is 28 years since I left the RAAF and I therefore know nothing of the current maintenance practices. What I do know is that the first thing to wear out on some aircraft on which I worked during the years I was a ground engineer, before going aloft as a F/E, one of the first things to wear was the Dzus fasteners or Camloc fasteners. The ridiculous system of weekly and monthly servicing, irrespective of hours flown, was often a complete waste of man-hours. Likewise, changing of components purely because they had been in service for "X" number of hours was not always worthwhile in terms of reliability or cost effectiveness. Progressive maintenance where components are properly checked by competent engineering staff and changed only when evidence is found to support such changes does make sense. I think the suggestion of alisoncc that maintenance is only carried out "after it breaks" is not entirely correct. I know that during my life as a civil F/E technical delays were very rare and the quality of aircraft maintenance was very good.
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Old Fella wrote:
To the best of my recollections it was NEVER weekly and monthly servicing, irrespective of hours flown. On our Vulcan Sqdn, the aircraft's Form 700 gave hours flown and noted any excessive airframe stress applied. Often major and minor service scheduling was based on an intelligent assessment of both time since last carried out in conjunction with hours flown.
It was standard practise that the Crew Chief always flew on the first test flight following any major service, and I understand that on aircraft where more seating was available, all signatories to the Form 700 got to fly on the first test flight. Doing so wonderfully focussed the mind on producing the best outcome.
My comparison wasn't on the RAF v RAAF, but on Now and Then. Then accountability and discipline were paramount. There were no "Legal team - driven" appeals against a months jankers and loss of pay for even a minor failing in following correct procedures. Greater failings could be punished by demotions, significantly affecting the rest of one's service career. There were no "if's" and "but's", end of story. Imagine the furore if some civvy tech was sentenced to a month in jail and a UKP3,000 fine (todays equivalent) for failing to fully tighten a connector on some piece of avionics equipment as happened to an associate then.
Whilst there have been massive improvements in equipment reliability, I firmly believe that servicing standards have dropped more than sufficient to offset this improvement. And irrespective of one's political leanings, if the country's Prime Minister flying to and from a meeting with the President of the US to discuss troop deployments cannot be assured of actually making it, then it's an incredibly poor show. Said troop deployments taking place in an operational theatre, so yes it was a "war" critical mission that Kevin Rudd undertook. But then again we used to take our wars seriously.
The ridiculous system of weekly and monthly servicing, irrespective of hours flown, was often a complete waste of man-hours. Likewise, changing of components purely because they had been in service for "X" number of hours was not always worthwhile in terms of reliability or cost effectiveness
It was standard practise that the Crew Chief always flew on the first test flight following any major service, and I understand that on aircraft where more seating was available, all signatories to the Form 700 got to fly on the first test flight. Doing so wonderfully focussed the mind on producing the best outcome.
My comparison wasn't on the RAF v RAAF, but on Now and Then. Then accountability and discipline were paramount. There were no "Legal team - driven" appeals against a months jankers and loss of pay for even a minor failing in following correct procedures. Greater failings could be punished by demotions, significantly affecting the rest of one's service career. There were no "if's" and "but's", end of story. Imagine the furore if some civvy tech was sentenced to a month in jail and a UKP3,000 fine (todays equivalent) for failing to fully tighten a connector on some piece of avionics equipment as happened to an associate then.
Whilst there have been massive improvements in equipment reliability, I firmly believe that servicing standards have dropped more than sufficient to offset this improvement. And irrespective of one's political leanings, if the country's Prime Minister flying to and from a meeting with the President of the US to discuss troop deployments cannot be assured of actually making it, then it's an incredibly poor show. Said troop deployments taking place in an operational theatre, so yes it was a "war" critical mission that Kevin Rudd undertook. But then again we used to take our wars seriously.
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Then & Now. RAAF v's RAF
alisoncc. I spent 23 years in the RAAF, about 11 in total in the Engine trade. I trained as a C130A Flight Engineer and thereafter spent the rest of my RAAF career in the F/E role before joining the civil airline industry. I also spent almost four years as a ground engineer at a joint RAF/RAAF facility where we operated a mix of RAF and RAAF aircraft, all under the RAAF maintenance system. I can assure you that weekly "A" servicing and monthly "C" service's were, at times, carried out on aircraft which may not have flown at all and in most cases had flown few hours. During my ten years on the C130 aircraft I was responsible, as were all Squadron F/E's, for any maintenance required away base short of major component changes such as an engine or prop change. We very rarely had the luxury of any ground crew assistance. As for your comments regarding the inability of being "assured of actually making it, then it is an incredibly poor show" , I'm sorry to say, is a nonsense. No aircraft, of which I am aware, which can be assured of never suffering a defect has yet been produced. As for the taking of "war" seriously, I think both our countries of birth have earned the right to hold our heads high in terms of military worth. But then what would I know, I'm a mere Colonial.
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And Tony they were the best maintained C130A's in the world, giving much higher hours between failures than our USAF friends.
The fact that one of them is the only C130A in original configeration still flying 50 years on says a lot for the deligence of the servicing crews of the RAAF.
I know that several times Lockheed had nice things to say about how "their" aircraft were looked after by the RAAF.
Just goes to show that as aircraft have got more reliable, so the schedules can safely be amended.
People who think they have the important job, would do well to remember that with out out techo's the ramp would just be a large aircraft parking lot.
Regards
Col
The fact that one of them is the only C130A in original configeration still flying 50 years on says a lot for the deligence of the servicing crews of the RAAF.
I know that several times Lockheed had nice things to say about how "their" aircraft were looked after by the RAAF.
Just goes to show that as aircraft have got more reliable, so the schedules can safely be amended.
People who think they have the important job, would do well to remember that with out out techo's the ramp would just be a large aircraft parking lot.
Regards
Col
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Best maintained C130A's
Hi Col. Yes mate, our aircraft were and likely still are among the best maintained aircraft worldwide and operated by people who know what they are about. Over fifty years of C130 operations and, thankfully, not one written off in an accident. Need I say more. All the best for Christmas and 2010 mate. Cheers Tony.
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Interesting story to tell about an RAAF C130.
In March 1967, after visiting family in Brisbane got a lift on a RAAF Herc out of Amberley heading for Butterworth via Darwin. Whilst loading at Darwin, another RAAF Herc taxied on to the next pan, and was rapidly surrounded by medics and ambulances. It was the first Australian Casevac out of Vietnam. Photo below of us enroute Butterworth. I think it was out of Amberley, may have been Richmond.
Chatting to the crew after leaving Darwin I mentioned that I was heading for RAF Changi. A very obliging pilot said “no probs” and called Changi Tower requesting approval to do a practice landing and taxi, which was given. Half way around the perimeter track they stopped and kicked me out, then continued on their way.
Whereupon I wandered across to Customs with suitcase in hand requesting admittance. Besides being an RAF camp Changi was also an international airport. So entry wasn’t so easy as passengers didn’t normally turn up that side without suitable documentation and normal procedures. Ended up with them ringing the tower and enquiring as to whether an Australian military aircraft had recently landed and deposited anyone on the airfield. The tower replied that they hadn’t seen anyone get out, but it wouldn’t surprise them. So Customs let me through. The Herc crew were a pretty good bunch of guys.
All the best Old Fella.
Alison
In March 1967, after visiting family in Brisbane got a lift on a RAAF Herc out of Amberley heading for Butterworth via Darwin. Whilst loading at Darwin, another RAAF Herc taxied on to the next pan, and was rapidly surrounded by medics and ambulances. It was the first Australian Casevac out of Vietnam. Photo below of us enroute Butterworth. I think it was out of Amberley, may have been Richmond.
Chatting to the crew after leaving Darwin I mentioned that I was heading for RAF Changi. A very obliging pilot said “no probs” and called Changi Tower requesting approval to do a practice landing and taxi, which was given. Half way around the perimeter track they stopped and kicked me out, then continued on their way.
Whereupon I wandered across to Customs with suitcase in hand requesting admittance. Besides being an RAF camp Changi was also an international airport. So entry wasn’t so easy as passengers didn’t normally turn up that side without suitable documentation and normal procedures. Ended up with them ringing the tower and enquiring as to whether an Australian military aircraft had recently landed and deposited anyone on the airfield. The tower replied that they hadn’t seen anyone get out, but it wouldn’t surprise them. So Customs let me through. The Herc crew were a pretty good bunch of guys.
All the best Old Fella.
Alison
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Alison,
I see you learned the first rule of paxing in a C130A - "sleep high". On the 'A', the circulation of the aircon was put in the wrong way round, so that after six hours, you always ended up with freezing feet and a boiling noggin.
I see you learned the first rule of paxing in a C130A - "sleep high". On the 'A', the circulation of the aircon was put in the wrong way round, so that after six hours, you always ended up with freezing feet and a boiling noggin.
Last edited by Wiley; 14th Dec 2009 at 20:48. Reason: typo
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C130A aircon
alisoncc. Thanks for the "plug" for my old Squadron and your good wishes. Likewise, all the best to you. Wiley there are some advantages in not having under-floor heating on the C130A. Anywhere aft of the ramp hinge was pretty cold-soaked after a few hours in the cruise and the design of the rear cargo door provided a great place to keep a carton cold and any frozen barramundi or prawns etc from thawing. And at 124200 lbs MTOW the "A" was a GO machine. Paxing was not the most pleasant experience however, and neither was having to sleep down the back on overnight turn-arounds on such tasks as evacuating Darwin after Cyclone Tracy.
Last edited by Old Fella; 12th Dec 2009 at 08:07. Reason: rectify typo's
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Old Fella, ahhhh, your comments bring back some fond memories.
Who could forget, on a PNG trainer, everyone sweaty in the extreme, and immediately after the final landing of the day at God only knows where, the Loadie climbing up into the duck's bum, dragging out the Esky that had sat there since not long after dawn, and the sound of the SP greenies being popped and passed up to the cockpit at about the same time as the two outboards were caged...
The practice would bring on massed courts martial in today's PC world, but that first sip from the frosted greenie can tasted really, really good as you taxied in and completed the paperwork prior to buttoning the old girl up for the night.
The wrong way round heating ducts might have been great for the Esky in the tail, but they were still a real punish for any poor bloody pax who scored a long flight on an 'A' rather than with that other mob across the road. Stepping down onto the cargo compartment floor, for the lucky ones who'd scored a high perch to sleep on, was like dipping your feet into a pool of very, very cold water.
Like the MG range, the 'A' was the last of the sports cars... As I recall, the saying was "'A' for go, 'E' for show".
Now, back to the subject of the thread. Where were we? Lambasting 24/7 Kev for his oversized carbon footprint, I believe.
Who could forget, on a PNG trainer, everyone sweaty in the extreme, and immediately after the final landing of the day at God only knows where, the Loadie climbing up into the duck's bum, dragging out the Esky that had sat there since not long after dawn, and the sound of the SP greenies being popped and passed up to the cockpit at about the same time as the two outboards were caged...
The practice would bring on massed courts martial in today's PC world, but that first sip from the frosted greenie can tasted really, really good as you taxied in and completed the paperwork prior to buttoning the old girl up for the night.
The wrong way round heating ducts might have been great for the Esky in the tail, but they were still a real punish for any poor bloody pax who scored a long flight on an 'A' rather than with that other mob across the road. Stepping down onto the cargo compartment floor, for the lucky ones who'd scored a high perch to sleep on, was like dipping your feet into a pool of very, very cold water.
Like the MG range, the 'A' was the last of the sports cars... As I recall, the saying was "'A' for go, 'E' for show".
Now, back to the subject of the thread. Where were we? Lambasting 24/7 Kev for his oversized carbon footprint, I believe.
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Frosty SP ales
Wiley, the days when PNG trainers were in vogue were indeed good days. Nights spent in places like Goroka, Mt Hagen, Wewak, Lae, Madang etc were not wasted. The flying in the Highlands was "character building" to say the least and there was never a more apt saying than "There are no Old Bold pilots in PNG". Those who were too bold adorned the mountains mostly. Your recollection of "A's for GO, E's for SHOW" is spot on and also very true. A lot of healthy rivalry between 36 and 37 existed over the whole time I was on C130's (A-E-H's) at Richmond (1968-1978). Happy landings.
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Old Fella wrote:
Don't know about PNG trainers, but was there when it was TPNG - early seventies. Spent many hours digging BN2A's out of the mud at Kiunga and Nigerum when they dug themselves in on landing. We used to supply the Kennecott survey teams when they were assessing the potential of what later became Ok Tedi. Did my first solo nav into Tapini.
The bar at SPAC was a good place to be after a week away. Moresby had two pubs, top pub and bottom pub, being each end of the main drag.
Wiley, the days when PNG trainers were in vogue were indeed good days. Nights spent in places like Goroka, Mt Hagen, Wewak, Lae, Madang etc were not wasted
The bar at SPAC was a good place to be after a week away. Moresby had two pubs, top pub and bottom pub, being each end of the main drag.
Silly Old Git
Spent a few nights in the disgraceful Malarial tours pilot donga Kiunga about that time alisoncc
The pilots were driven nuts doing Kiunga -Ningerum shuttles as I recall.
Thank god fpr SP Green.
The pilots were driven nuts doing Kiunga -Ningerum shuttles as I recall.
Thank god fpr SP Green.
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Ozzie Osborne
Tinpis, have not seen Ozzie for many years, however will be going to a reunion in March where I may be able to get some info if you don't hear beforehand.
I think i know who you are looking for...
