STILL THINK THERE ARE JOBS OUTSIDE?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm afraid that the news is not good, I hear that many people wishing to rescind their applications to leave are not having their 'hands bitten off' but are being boarded at Innsworth. It seems the tables have turned and that the treasury will call the shots now that the RAF pilot manning crisis is over, albeit in the short term. I reckon the retention package certainly looks unlikely now and that those on the brink of leaving the RAF on the 11th September may well find the ex-military pilot queue at the dole office quite long! It's a shame if all this is true, let's hope someone high up in the MOD can see the common-sense approach. I for one am not holding my breath! 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Somerset
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the retention incentive front, a group of distinguished visitors to an Airstation today indicated that work was ongoing and that the study was awaiting treasury approval. This was in direct response to a question regarding the current airline job market. When pressed, the response was that 'senior officers were not so shortsighted to let recent events affect the retention plans'. Therefore prepare for a large disappointment !!
The most telling comment was that a senior officer was not present as he had been called back for urgent work on the retention review! If our lords and masters get this one wrong then the effects will be disastrous.
As for timescales, expect another incredibly vague signal in Nov to keep us hanging on, but no mention of dosh until Feb 02 at the earliest.
The most telling comment was that a senior officer was not present as he had been called back for urgent work on the retention review! If our lords and masters get this one wrong then the effects will be disastrous.
As for timescales, expect another incredibly vague signal in Nov to keep us hanging on, but no mention of dosh until Feb 02 at the earliest.
Rumour Control says that the £10k bonus would be incorporated into the top rate of flying pay, but given the large number of PVRs being withdrawn and the equally large number of inquiries about rejoining, the Treasury have queried whether we have a retention problem. Yes, our senior officers are keen for the problem to be addressed, but are they prepared to fall on their swords when the Treasury wins, as they always do?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have just been speaking to the staish at Waddo - and basically said the same as Flatfish. He also indicated that the powers to be are concerned not to get it wrong this time and that this was an ideal opportunity to ensure we retained the right people. Apparently we are still short of navs! 27 ex-military pilots, was the figure I was quoted, who are pleading to come back in. Binnsworth alledgedly told them to look else where. I feel sorry for the Virgin mate who resigned to work join BA - just to be told that they no longer require his services. On a personal note - the E3D flt cdrs at Waddo would not be welcoming any prodical sons back with open arms or fatted calves!
[ 05 October 2001: Message edited by: Scorpius ]
[ 05 October 2001: Message edited by: Scorpius ]
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scorpius,
As an ex E3 pilot who now works for the airlines (and there are quite a few of us), I would like to reply on behalf of the "prodical sons".
1. I don't think it's right for you to quote Waddo's CO on this open forum.
2. Your information regarding the Virgin mate who went to BA is completely wrong.
3. My personal experience of Kosovo was that we needed every single experienced captain we would get our hands on at the time. You may well need these guys long before they need you! We could even teach you guys how to fly across the pond without making huge navigational errors!!!!
[ 05 October 2001: Message edited by: Next Waypoint ]
As an ex E3 pilot who now works for the airlines (and there are quite a few of us), I would like to reply on behalf of the "prodical sons".
1. I don't think it's right for you to quote Waddo's CO on this open forum.
2. Your information regarding the Virgin mate who went to BA is completely wrong.
3. My personal experience of Kosovo was that we needed every single experienced captain we would get our hands on at the time. You may well need these guys long before they need you! We could even teach you guys how to fly across the pond without making huge navigational errors!!!!
[ 05 October 2001: Message edited by: Next Waypoint ]
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My information is that some recent FJ retirees are being taken straight back in, so long as they agree to serve a further 3 years. That might be about the time frame for the airline industry to be back up and running.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PP, I too had heard that the general concensus from Innsworth was a min 3 years. However, good friend has just been offered a choice of FTR, spec F/L, S/L non-exec Sqn post or S/L desk job for a year with a guarantee of staff college. He's along way off from being made redundant and was just feeling the waters. Said desk officer recommended the FTR as it would allow a 6 week notice period!!!!!!
I really am uncomfortable in a system where a lack of loyalty/commitment or whatever can then be rewarded like the return of the prodigal son. Why should I train to fight with somebody who will leave just as soon as the going gets tough or the outside economy picks up?
I decided long before Sep 11 that I was in for the long haul, and no retention incentive has come my way, but if, god forbid, that somebody decides to return to the armed forces and then becomes eligible for a bonus then Inns can shove it where the sun don't shine, I'll be off.
I fully understand that the Treasury will insist on reviewing the retention proposals, but please, please Air Staffs get them to look further than the next 6 months. There might be temporary relief from the pilot shortage (though I understand that from the 200+ enquiries to Innsworth, nobody has actually returned), but unless long term retention measures are in place then the situation will only be exacerbated.
I really am uncomfortable in a system where a lack of loyalty/commitment or whatever can then be rewarded like the return of the prodigal son. Why should I train to fight with somebody who will leave just as soon as the going gets tough or the outside economy picks up?
I decided long before Sep 11 that I was in for the long haul, and no retention incentive has come my way, but if, god forbid, that somebody decides to return to the armed forces and then becomes eligible for a bonus then Inns can shove it where the sun don't shine, I'll be off.
I fully understand that the Treasury will insist on reviewing the retention proposals, but please, please Air Staffs get them to look further than the next 6 months. There might be temporary relief from the pilot shortage (though I understand that from the 200+ enquiries to Innsworth, nobody has actually returned), but unless long term retention measures are in place then the situation will only be exacerbated.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JHC
I'm still here darling. Current working week (including travel time) is a knackering 80+ hours so I've had to prune my Prune time.
I am getting paid for all the extra hours but I'm also making my taxman very rich! It will all be over by Christmas .... hmmm, now where have I heard that one before
Last year I was involved in making 200 people redundant. It was not a fun time - dealing with tearful girls in the loo, indignant men who had been working at the same desk for donkeys years, sorting out final payments, pensions etc. I'm happy to say that most of these people found new employment fairly quickly, but last year was a boom year compared to this. I honestly think things will get much worse towards the end of the year. Losing a job is a lot more than that to some people. It may mean moving to another area, giving up friends and starting all over again. Most people have a belly full of that whilst they're in the Forces and move to the airlines for stability for their families. The immediate future looks pretty bleak, so let's give 'em a break huh guys.
I'm still here darling. Current working week (including travel time) is a knackering 80+ hours so I've had to prune my Prune time.
I am getting paid for all the extra hours but I'm also making my taxman very rich! It will all be over by Christmas .... hmmm, now where have I heard that one before
Last year I was involved in making 200 people redundant. It was not a fun time - dealing with tearful girls in the loo, indignant men who had been working at the same desk for donkeys years, sorting out final payments, pensions etc. I'm happy to say that most of these people found new employment fairly quickly, but last year was a boom year compared to this. I honestly think things will get much worse towards the end of the year. Losing a job is a lot more than that to some people. It may mean moving to another area, giving up friends and starting all over again. Most people have a belly full of that whilst they're in the Forces and move to the airlines for stability for their families. The immediate future looks pretty bleak, so let's give 'em a break huh guys.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UnderPowered...
Thanks for the rumour, is it genereated by 'the boys' or does it have some origin in MOD? From the sound of many replies on this forum there seems to be a 'glimmer of hope' that retention packages may still happen.
Thanks for the rumour, is it genereated by 'the boys' or does it have some origin in MOD? From the sound of many replies on this forum there seems to be a 'glimmer of hope' that retention packages may still happen.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You guys in the military must now have noticed the speed at which the businessmen in the aviation industry reacted to the USA events. Massive job cuts announced within days. This illustrates the true attitude within the corprate sector. Everyone is disposable, instnatly and without appeal. At the merest suggestion of problems then the good old bloodletting takes place. However, this sort of speed of action is unheard of in the military. Before any decisions are made there are endless meetings and focus groups to thrash out the pros and cons. It is for this reason that the military will continue to discuss the 'problems' of retaining aircrew for the next couple of years at least. In fact way after the problem have ceased to exist.
What p***** me off, as tax payer, is that they will no doubt produce enviable packages
to persuade you all to stay on longer....but as a father, to tell the truth I am perfectly happy with that, as my son is flying in the military, even as we speak.
What p***** me off, as tax payer, is that they will no doubt produce enviable packages
to persuade you all to stay on longer....but as a father, to tell the truth I am perfectly happy with that, as my son is flying in the military, even as we speak.
Champagne anyone...?
PD - I think you'd be surprised at how quickly the upper echelons and their financial masters would ditch any retention plans they may have had. As for the actual problem of retention I don't for a moment think that's it's gone away despite recent events.
PS. I'm a taxpayer too thanks very much.
PS. I'm a taxpayer too thanks very much.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 721
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, at least we no longer have to wade through pages of "I am leaving next week, when are you? I hear half the guys/gals on xxx Sqn have put in their papers..." type of crap that until very recently stained this site and, indirectly, the RAF. Presumably the carpet-baggers have either left (and some are begging to get back in) and have left the professionals to get on with it.
I should have thought that in the current operational situation, all PVR applications ought to have been binned.
I should have thought that in the current operational situation, all PVR applications ought to have been binned.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: The Frozen North
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FV
Whilst I agree that it's a pleasant change not to have the continual moaning, let's not forget that people only, generally, complain when there is something to moan about.
I think I am paid quite well, but the issue is about quality of life. The RAF is overstretched and recent events will only make things worse, not better. Are we likely to see an increase in funding to match the extra commitments? I would be surprised.
At the end of the day, retention measures (whether you like it or not) are the simplest way to get folk to bite the bullet and put up with the hassle. The lack of jobs in the airline industries will only be a tempory glitch - if the MOD gets it wrong again the backlash might not be immediate, but it will happen at some point.
PS - I pay taxes too (40%!!!!), but I also think that I am worth my salt. If they are not going to cure the problems then the least they can do is sweeten the pill!?
Whilst I agree that it's a pleasant change not to have the continual moaning, let's not forget that people only, generally, complain when there is something to moan about.
I think I am paid quite well, but the issue is about quality of life. The RAF is overstretched and recent events will only make things worse, not better. Are we likely to see an increase in funding to match the extra commitments? I would be surprised.
At the end of the day, retention measures (whether you like it or not) are the simplest way to get folk to bite the bullet and put up with the hassle. The lack of jobs in the airline industries will only be a tempory glitch - if the MOD gets it wrong again the backlash might not be immediate, but it will happen at some point.
PS - I pay taxes too (40%!!!!), but I also think that I am worth my salt. If they are not going to cure the problems then the least they can do is sweeten the pill!?
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: UK
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many of the those who have gone recently have done their time and left at their option. I don't think this makes them disloyal, a bad person or anything else. What I do think is that some people are having a pretty hard time of it at the moment through no fault of their own. Some of the smugness apparent in this thread really is childish; perhaps it comes from those without the courage to leave a comfortable institution?
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 721
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Adastral
Whinging about pay and the kit - OK.
Leaving at ones option point - OK. PVR, pesumably having amortised one's training costs - OK. But using the Web to talk up defections, hoping thus to pressurise MOD - NOTOK. IMHO it is not officerlike behaviour and comes close to breaching the oath of allegiance.
There was something on the radio this am about the RAF asking reservists to come back in supporting roles during the current emergency. I just dug out my No 1 Blue - a bit musty but it still fits. But my SD hat -Oh sh*t!
Whinging about pay and the kit - OK.
Leaving at ones option point - OK. PVR, pesumably having amortised one's training costs - OK. But using the Web to talk up defections, hoping thus to pressurise MOD - NOTOK. IMHO it is not officerlike behaviour and comes close to breaching the oath of allegiance.
There was something on the radio this am about the RAF asking reservists to come back in supporting roles during the current emergency. I just dug out my No 1 Blue - a bit musty but it still fits. But my SD hat -Oh sh*t!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Chippenham, Wiltshire, UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just as a point to note, I for one did the PVR thing and went outside to civilian flying a few years ago thinking it would be the perfect life. As much as we all like to whinge, moan and complain about the RAF, I had to admit that life was not as green outside as I had thought. For all those who seek a civvy flying job, think long and hard before you leave. If the thought of wandering around "anytown" on your own because the remainder of the crew are all sat in their hotel rooms counting their allowances or the same crew who have the potential to fly you into the ground because they simply are not trained as well as those in the mob, then it really is your choice.....but do think long and hard before you hand in the Gen App. It could be that you'd be better suited to staying in and helping to make the changes from within the RAF........
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: The Frozen North
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FV
Totally agree. I am 100% loyal to the service; however, I will not blindly follow with no word of criticism when I see major flaws in the way we are lead.
I cannot abide that we have been cut back to the bone and yet still try and take on more than we are capable of. No-one will say NO because we are either 'can do' people or 'yes men'.
Sadly it seems to be the latter that are going to the top and the former that are taking options or PVRing.
The danger in this situation is that the real power behind the throne, the treasury, will use the down-turn in market forces to fob off the Air force Board and do nothing about the retention crisis.
Yes, there has been a tempory reduction in the number of civilian jobs but we are still undermanned on the frontline and have lost, and will continue to lose, valuable experience.
Innsworth are pushing 60 IPS (In Productive Service) as the golden cow - but that only gets bodies in the front door. You can't (or the treasury apparantly won't) put a price on 1000hrs+ experience.
As we are unlikely to get descent airframes, instant manning and a reduction in the number and intensity of worldwide commitments, then they are going to have to do something to keep that experience in.
Loyalty swings both ways.
Soggykitkat (Where did you think of that one, or shouldn't I ask?)
You are probably right; those of us in should not have too rose tinted a view of life in the outside world. However, none of the guys that that I know have regretted their decision to leave... and their families definately haven't.
Life will be, perhaps always will be, greener on the other side. There is still a chance for the grass to be treated on this side of the fence before it becomes too bitter to swallow.
Totally agree. I am 100% loyal to the service; however, I will not blindly follow with no word of criticism when I see major flaws in the way we are lead.
I cannot abide that we have been cut back to the bone and yet still try and take on more than we are capable of. No-one will say NO because we are either 'can do' people or 'yes men'.
Sadly it seems to be the latter that are going to the top and the former that are taking options or PVRing.
The danger in this situation is that the real power behind the throne, the treasury, will use the down-turn in market forces to fob off the Air force Board and do nothing about the retention crisis.
Yes, there has been a tempory reduction in the number of civilian jobs but we are still undermanned on the frontline and have lost, and will continue to lose, valuable experience.
Innsworth are pushing 60 IPS (In Productive Service) as the golden cow - but that only gets bodies in the front door. You can't (or the treasury apparantly won't) put a price on 1000hrs+ experience.
As we are unlikely to get descent airframes, instant manning and a reduction in the number and intensity of worldwide commitments, then they are going to have to do something to keep that experience in.
Loyalty swings both ways.
Soggykitkat (Where did you think of that one, or shouldn't I ask?)
You are probably right; those of us in should not have too rose tinted a view of life in the outside world. However, none of the guys that that I know have regretted their decision to leave... and their families definately haven't.
Life will be, perhaps always will be, greener on the other side. There is still a chance for the grass to be treated on this side of the fence before it becomes too bitter to swallow.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Chippenham, Wiltshire, UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The soggykitkat comes from my inability to stop smoking......someone said I had the willpower like the breaking strain of a soggy kit-kat.....kinda stuck!
I can only relate to my experiences outside, and I never thought of the RAF as a two way loyalty street, but oh those bloody rose coloured specs!!!!
Thankfully, I managed to rejoin the RAF (now everybody knows who I am!!!!) 2 years ago, and after a glimpse of outside I'm truely glad to be back amongst the fold so to speak, even CCS/GDT is enjoyable nowadays!
My only point was that leaving the service may not be all that you thought. If you want to pay your mortgage off 10 years early but be bug*r*ed about whilst doing so, then outside might be your thing, but if you enjoy flying with true well trained professionals then stay.
I can only relate to my experiences outside, and I never thought of the RAF as a two way loyalty street, but oh those bloody rose coloured specs!!!!
Thankfully, I managed to rejoin the RAF (now everybody knows who I am!!!!) 2 years ago, and after a glimpse of outside I'm truely glad to be back amongst the fold so to speak, even CCS/GDT is enjoyable nowadays!
My only point was that leaving the service may not be all that you thought. If you want to pay your mortgage off 10 years early but be bug*r*ed about whilst doing so, then outside might be your thing, but if you enjoy flying with true well trained professionals then stay.