Helicopter ATPL exemptions
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Join Date: Jun 2000
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Helicopter ATPL exemptions
I received an e-mail to day with the following information-
JAR ATPL(H) for those with
2000 hrs
1500 of which P1
350 multi pilot
Sit Aviation law and Flight ops exam
MCC exemption
This should be circulated to everyone as it was an open letter.
JAR ATPL(H) for those with
2000 hrs
1500 of which P1
350 multi pilot
Sit Aviation law and Flight ops exam
MCC exemption
This should be circulated to everyone as it was an open letter.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: England
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Helmut,
I must concur, if I were going through or had just been ejected from the box I'd be pretty p***ed off. With current flying rates, unless you have a couple of tours in the emerald toiletunder your belt you are up the proverbial without a paddle.
Rumour has it that the CAA would have been happy with a lower limit only the army wanted a higher level..... perhaps worried about a mass exodus?? Well this won't prevent that.
If this is some sort of retention ploy I feel it's doomed to fail. Most 'old and bold' already have licences or are in the process of getting them and new guys and girls coming through aren't going to hang around in sleepy hollows hoping to accumulate the hours.
Oh it's OK the Apache will be here soon.... do simulator hours count????
I must concur, if I were going through or had just been ejected from the box I'd be pretty p***ed off. With current flying rates, unless you have a couple of tours in the emerald toiletunder your belt you are up the proverbial without a paddle.
Rumour has it that the CAA would have been happy with a lower limit only the army wanted a higher level..... perhaps worried about a mass exodus?? Well this won't prevent that.
If this is some sort of retention ploy I feel it's doomed to fail. Most 'old and bold' already have licences or are in the process of getting them and new guys and girls coming through aren't going to hang around in sleepy hollows hoping to accumulate the hours.
Oh it's OK the Apache will be here soon.... do simulator hours count????
well they really pushed the boat out for us on this didn't they - NOT.
Who the hell is going to get those hours these days? let's see....
250-ish hours on an 18 month pilot's course, average of 10 hours per month if they're lucky, but let's be really generous and say a totally unrealistic 15 hours per month. That's 180 hour per year, so it will take you 10 years to get there. So if you're an officer forget it as you'll be flying a desk within 4 years or less.
MOD - you're crap. "this will aid retention" they say. Sorry it won't. It's a turd and no matter how much you polish it, that's what it will remain.
So same old, same old this is a pretty pathetic effort. The best thing that happened to retention is the fact that we may now actually get a decent Op on Osama's ass.
But this is a rubbish deal.
Thanks for nothing pencil-necks.
Who the hell is going to get those hours these days? let's see....
250-ish hours on an 18 month pilot's course, average of 10 hours per month if they're lucky, but let's be really generous and say a totally unrealistic 15 hours per month. That's 180 hour per year, so it will take you 10 years to get there. So if you're an officer forget it as you'll be flying a desk within 4 years or less.
MOD - you're crap. "this will aid retention" they say. Sorry it won't. It's a turd and no matter how much you polish it, that's what it will remain.
So same old, same old this is a pretty pathetic effort. The best thing that happened to retention is the fact that we may now actually get a decent Op on Osama's ass.
But this is a rubbish deal.
Thanks for nothing pencil-necks.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, CR. When you started flying, you were never promised a civvy license, were you?
You accepted the role as seen, right?
Who's changing the goal posts now?
Sorry to sound a bit off but you took the shilling matey.
You will be in an excellent position in the future (should you decide to stay in) to represent us and voice the feeling of one who has been hard done by. Or have you only learnt how to compose an essay to Army Review and Doctrine comic in your time away?
Free the Blackpool four!!
I agree that the recent 'retention' measures fall extremely short of the mark and have been a knee jerk, back of the fag packet reaction to an issue that quite frankly has been on the cards for some time. I feel they are throwing money in the wrong direction. Draw-down and no visible threat nowadays means Betty's finest come down the bottom of the shopping list when it comes to votes. As I've said before, we need to invade a small island/warm country to set the balance straight. Mmmmm.......watch this space in the next couple of weeks, I feel our defence budget might well be increased.......or maybe not! Blah, blah..rant rave..irrelivant ramblings......
You accepted the role as seen, right?
Who's changing the goal posts now?
Sorry to sound a bit off but you took the shilling matey.
You will be in an excellent position in the future (should you decide to stay in) to represent us and voice the feeling of one who has been hard done by. Or have you only learnt how to compose an essay to Army Review and Doctrine comic in your time away?
Free the Blackpool four!!
I agree that the recent 'retention' measures fall extremely short of the mark and have been a knee jerk, back of the fag packet reaction to an issue that quite frankly has been on the cards for some time. I feel they are throwing money in the wrong direction. Draw-down and no visible threat nowadays means Betty's finest come down the bottom of the shopping list when it comes to votes. As I've said before, we need to invade a small island/warm country to set the balance straight. Mmmmm.......watch this space in the next couple of weeks, I feel our defence budget might well be increased.......or maybe not! Blah, blah..rant rave..irrelivant ramblings......
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CR
Got bored sharpening pencils and making brews already?
Helmut
See your admins improving: I was expecting it to be at least 8 months for you to get back online and leave the Brandy alone.
Got bored sharpening pencils and making brews already?
Helmut
See your admins improving: I was expecting it to be at least 8 months for you to get back online and leave the Brandy alone.
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Funny you should say that, ol_ben. They do 3 ltrs over here! Doh!
Admin! Pah.......last one in the LUP is a big girls blouse.....any questions?......brief complete!!!
See you for a form 3 in a year!
Admin! Pah.......last one in the LUP is a big girls blouse.....any questions?......brief complete!!!
See you for a form 3 in a year!
Neither the TGDA website nor the CAA PLD website have yet been updated to include either AAC FW accreditation or Purple RW accreditation, so anything posted on this thread is not official!.
Of course it'll take around the period you discuss to accumulate the relevant accreditation towards the JAR ATPL(H) - why should that surprise you? It is entirely unreasonable to expect full accreditation for little experience; however, it is always possible that some accreditation may be given for RW pilots with less than the full qualifying time? I do not have any details of the specifics of RW accreditation and I have been asked not to make generally known the stage which the accreditation process has now reached. Patience chums - something will be coming soon.
Of course it'll take around the period you discuss to accumulate the relevant accreditation towards the JAR ATPL(H) - why should that surprise you? It is entirely unreasonable to expect full accreditation for little experience; however, it is always possible that some accreditation may be given for RW pilots with less than the full qualifying time? I do not have any details of the specifics of RW accreditation and I have been asked not to make generally known the stage which the accreditation process has now reached. Patience chums - something will be coming soon.
RW accreditations for ATPL(H) have now been officially released. See www.tgda.gov.uk/CAA_Accreditation/htmlfiles/GeneralInfoRW.htm for details.
There are no RW to ATPL(A) accreditations; these were apparently turned down by the CAA as nothing exists to cover such accreditation under JAR/FCL.
[ 19 September 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
There are no RW to ATPL(A) accreditations; these were apparently turned down by the CAA as nothing exists to cover such accreditation under JAR/FCL.
[ 19 September 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
Join Date: Mar 2001
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CR - I thought there was a bit of whinging in my day, but then we were spending 4 months of the year on exercise and most of the remainder in NI or FI. If we wanted to get to greener grass (it really isn't you know)we then had to sit ALL CAA commercial subjects to obtain a licence.
You tell the young 'uns today and they just won't believe you!
You tell the young 'uns today and they just won't believe you!
Jeezus! Can't a guy have a good rant once in a while? OK, p'haps a little OTT, but the fact remains that it is way way out of the reach of most new aviators today. Unreachable goals do not make great incentives, and perhaps a more stepped approach (ppl, cpl, atpl pehaps?) might have been better.
Sure I signed on the dotted line and nothing was promised when I did, but the fact remains that the AAC needs us more than we need them, its a volunteer organisation and they have to try and retain us because last time I looked I wasn't a charity organisation!
And Helmut et al, you come and shine your arse at my desk for a bit and see how egalitarian about the corps you are then! (Yes I know its my fault for being an officer)
I wouldn't need retention to do your job!
rant rant rant.
And army 427, its precisely because I'm not doing the business like "in your day" that I'm bitching about!
aaaarrrggghhh!
Anyway, have a nice day you guys.
Sure I signed on the dotted line and nothing was promised when I did, but the fact remains that the AAC needs us more than we need them, its a volunteer organisation and they have to try and retain us because last time I looked I wasn't a charity organisation!
And Helmut et al, you come and shine your arse at my desk for a bit and see how egalitarian about the corps you are then! (Yes I know its my fault for being an officer)
I wouldn't need retention to do your job!
rant rant rant.
And army 427, its precisely because I'm not doing the business like "in your day" that I'm bitching about!
aaaarrrggghhh!
Anyway, have a nice day you guys.
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Sorry CR - I do appreciate your frustrations. 10-15 hours per month is a little sad, not to mention dangerous. Still looks like you all might increase your stats soon, Good luck. 
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CR
"........the fact remains that the AAC needs us more than we need them...."
Your memory so short that you forget the poor lot of the E3 fraternity - not that many transfers this year to back up the above.
"........the fact remains that the AAC needs us more than we need them...."
Your memory so short that you forget the poor lot of the E3 fraternity - not that many transfers this year to back up the above.
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BEagle old chap -as you seem to be the one in the know, is there likely to be any form of dispensation for RW after an ATPL(A) at all, or are we destined to spend vast amounts of our own pennies joining the fixed wing elite?
I understand that the problem does not lie with the military team who made the proposals, but with the JAA. At present there seems to be no clear mechanism for JAR/FCL ATPL(H) holders to receive ATPL(A) accreditation, so there's nothing the CAA can identify to assess the MoD propsals against. But when/if the JAA extracts the digit, the cross-accreditation as proposed by the MoD could be re-assessed.
However, I understand that JAR/FCL ATPL(H) holders will be able to take appropriate ATPL(H) to ATPL(A) bridging exams, when they become available in the next 12 months, and that limited flight time credit is already allowed for under JAR/FCL 1. So my advice would be to obtain your ATPL(H) and then 'bridge' to CPL(A)/IR with ATPL(A) theory credit. However, although you would receive credit for total flight time and theory, you would still need to complete the FW CPL(A) training and testing requirements, including an IR, at an organisation approved to conduct the training and testing. Hence even with your shiny new ATPL(H) in your hand, you would need to enrol on (probably) a modular CPL(A)/IR course, complete the 'bridging' theory and examination (JAR implies that this is a single exam, but I would take that with a pinch of salt!), complete CPL training, do the CPL(A) Skill Test, complete IR training, do the IR Skill Test (probably in a multi-engine aircraft) and then you should be able to apply for a JAR/FCL CPL(A)/IR. That would entitle you to operate as co-pilot for commercial transportation, during your first few years 'on the line' you would achieve the remaining requirements for ATPL(A) which you would need to operate as Commander for commercial transportation.
Well - that's as I understand it and I may well be wrong. Drop a note to Alex Whittingham at Bristol Flight Centre and he may be able to give you more accurate advice.
[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
However, I understand that JAR/FCL ATPL(H) holders will be able to take appropriate ATPL(H) to ATPL(A) bridging exams, when they become available in the next 12 months, and that limited flight time credit is already allowed for under JAR/FCL 1. So my advice would be to obtain your ATPL(H) and then 'bridge' to CPL(A)/IR with ATPL(A) theory credit. However, although you would receive credit for total flight time and theory, you would still need to complete the FW CPL(A) training and testing requirements, including an IR, at an organisation approved to conduct the training and testing. Hence even with your shiny new ATPL(H) in your hand, you would need to enrol on (probably) a modular CPL(A)/IR course, complete the 'bridging' theory and examination (JAR implies that this is a single exam, but I would take that with a pinch of salt!), complete CPL training, do the CPL(A) Skill Test, complete IR training, do the IR Skill Test (probably in a multi-engine aircraft) and then you should be able to apply for a JAR/FCL CPL(A)/IR. That would entitle you to operate as co-pilot for commercial transportation, during your first few years 'on the line' you would achieve the remaining requirements for ATPL(A) which you would need to operate as Commander for commercial transportation.
Well - that's as I understand it and I may well be wrong. Drop a note to Alex Whittingham at Bristol Flight Centre and he may be able to give you more accurate advice.
[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
