US to withhold F-35 fighter software codes
To be fair to the likes of Drayson, when he made his promises he probably asked junior advisors what Government / MoD policy was. He’d have been told “Acquire source code and establish Software Support Cells. Bidders have to complete a Compliance Matrix – non complaint, no contract”.
But, like so much policy and regulations, it doesn’t keep up with technological advances or reflect reality. Or the fact that for 14 years our leaders have been systematically stripping MoD of the expertise and funding necessary to comply with this policy. Both Gray and Haddon-Cave reports dwell on this.
The last time I had to consider a SSC it soon became blindingly obvious that the only reason it was being pushed by the Service concerned was because the Military ILS Manager happened to be enthusiastic software amateur. When asked for a “sustainability plan” which involved a through-life guarantee of a fully staffed and funded SSC, the system toppled. In other words, a policy is only an aspiration until fully funded.
Yes, they may have set up an SSC, but the moment they had a funding or staffing problem, and a gap appeared in, for example, the configuration control audit trail, then you’d be in deep poo. This is precisely what happened on the likes of C130 and Nimrod; infinitely simpler systems.
This is part of a much larger problem. We, as a country, try to punch far above our weight, and the Government won’t (can’t) feed us enough to balance the scales at weigh-in.
But, like so much policy and regulations, it doesn’t keep up with technological advances or reflect reality. Or the fact that for 14 years our leaders have been systematically stripping MoD of the expertise and funding necessary to comply with this policy. Both Gray and Haddon-Cave reports dwell on this.
The last time I had to consider a SSC it soon became blindingly obvious that the only reason it was being pushed by the Service concerned was because the Military ILS Manager happened to be enthusiastic software amateur. When asked for a “sustainability plan” which involved a through-life guarantee of a fully staffed and funded SSC, the system toppled. In other words, a policy is only an aspiration until fully funded.
Yes, they may have set up an SSC, but the moment they had a funding or staffing problem, and a gap appeared in, for example, the configuration control audit trail, then you’d be in deep poo. This is precisely what happened on the likes of C130 and Nimrod; infinitely simpler systems.
This is part of a much larger problem. We, as a country, try to punch far above our weight, and the Government won’t (can’t) feed us enough to balance the scales at weigh-in.
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I'm just wondering if something has been lost in the detail here.
Programming source code, or making alterations to source code has to be strictly controlled. It’s recognised across the IT world as an essential element of good control and governance. There has to be a gate keeper, who checks the alteration, tests it in isolation, before allowing the change to occur. It is the foundation stone of ensuring that the systems work effectively and without bugs.
If you have all or one of the partner nations making alterations independently, then those aircraft will then have to be treated as independent entities as new central ‘updates’ will no longer be guaranteed compatible. It makes sense to have a central code processing centre.
To guarantee independent action, the UK would need to have assurance that it has the ability to make and process alterations whenever it wants, without asking permission from the US. This might mean that UK coders are integrated into the processing house structure, and that the UK retains a cold site within the UK which is capable of undertaking the work. In the event of a crisis, our coders can start up at the cold site, and make whatever alterations we choose.
Perhaps it is worth seeing the F35 as more akin to the iphone when O2 held the monopoly. We might be happy to join the ride, because you get a very slick product, with a huge support structure driving, and access to fantastic apps. But if your relationship with O2 turns sour and they start hitting you with huge bills, you want to know that you have the ability to ‘jail break’ the phone. But its probably far better to stay on the train, and work together.
Programming source code, or making alterations to source code has to be strictly controlled. It’s recognised across the IT world as an essential element of good control and governance. There has to be a gate keeper, who checks the alteration, tests it in isolation, before allowing the change to occur. It is the foundation stone of ensuring that the systems work effectively and without bugs.
If you have all or one of the partner nations making alterations independently, then those aircraft will then have to be treated as independent entities as new central ‘updates’ will no longer be guaranteed compatible. It makes sense to have a central code processing centre.
To guarantee independent action, the UK would need to have assurance that it has the ability to make and process alterations whenever it wants, without asking permission from the US. This might mean that UK coders are integrated into the processing house structure, and that the UK retains a cold site within the UK which is capable of undertaking the work. In the event of a crisis, our coders can start up at the cold site, and make whatever alterations we choose.
Perhaps it is worth seeing the F35 as more akin to the iphone when O2 held the monopoly. We might be happy to join the ride, because you get a very slick product, with a huge support structure driving, and access to fantastic apps. But if your relationship with O2 turns sour and they start hitting you with huge bills, you want to know that you have the ability to ‘jail break’ the phone. But its probably far better to stay on the train, and work together.
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I think you are missing the point Walter, by 9000 miles or so.
No, Walter is on point. A majpr reasons why the Bush Jr. admin. did not want to "sell" F-22's to Australia or Japan is that Israel also wanted or wants F-22's. ( The Israelis never actually pay for their aircraft. Calling the freebies "sales" is P.R. )
The problem is Israeli reverse engineering and subsequent sales to China. Japanese reverse engineering is also a potential problem.
And why should the USA entrust all to the EU provinces formerly known as UK?
[COLOR="Navy"]MiG-15 Design & Development:
In the immediate wake of World War II, the Soviet Union captured a wealth of German jet engine and aeronautical research. Utilizing this, they produced their first practical jet fighter, the MiG-9, in early 1946. While capable, this aircraft lacked the top speed of the standard American jets of the day, such as the P-80 Shooting Star. Though MiG-9 was operational, Russian designers continued to have issues perfecting the German HeS-011 axial-flow jet engine. As a result, airframe designs produced by Artem Mikoyan and Mikhail Gurevich's design bureau began to outpace the ability to produce engines to power them.
While the Soviets struggled with developing jet engines, the British had created advanced "centrifugal flow" engines. In 1946, Soviet aviation minister Mikhail Khrunichev and aircraft designer Alexander Yakovlev approached Premier Joseph Stalin with the suggestion of buying several British jet engines. Though not believing that the British would part with such advanced technology, Stalin gave them permission to contact London.
Much to their surprise, the new Labour government of Clement Atlee, which was friendlier towards the Soviets, agreed to the sale of several Rolls-Royce Nene engines along with a licensing agreement for overseas production. Bringing the engines to the Soviet Union, engine designer Vladimir Klimov immediately began reverse-engineering the design. The result was the Klimov RD-45. ...
]MiG-15 - Korean War MiG-15 Fighter
No, Walter is on point. A majpr reasons why the Bush Jr. admin. did not want to "sell" F-22's to Australia or Japan is that Israel also wanted or wants F-22's. ( The Israelis never actually pay for their aircraft. Calling the freebies "sales" is P.R. )
The problem is Israeli reverse engineering and subsequent sales to China. Japanese reverse engineering is also a potential problem.
And why should the USA entrust all to the EU provinces formerly known as UK?
[COLOR="Navy"]MiG-15 Design & Development:
In the immediate wake of World War II, the Soviet Union captured a wealth of German jet engine and aeronautical research. Utilizing this, they produced their first practical jet fighter, the MiG-9, in early 1946. While capable, this aircraft lacked the top speed of the standard American jets of the day, such as the P-80 Shooting Star. Though MiG-9 was operational, Russian designers continued to have issues perfecting the German HeS-011 axial-flow jet engine. As a result, airframe designs produced by Artem Mikoyan and Mikhail Gurevich's design bureau began to outpace the ability to produce engines to power them.
While the Soviets struggled with developing jet engines, the British had created advanced "centrifugal flow" engines. In 1946, Soviet aviation minister Mikhail Khrunichev and aircraft designer Alexander Yakovlev approached Premier Joseph Stalin with the suggestion of buying several British jet engines. Though not believing that the British would part with such advanced technology, Stalin gave them permission to contact London.
Much to their surprise, the new Labour government of Clement Atlee, which was friendlier towards the Soviets, agreed to the sale of several Rolls-Royce Nene engines along with a licensing agreement for overseas production. Bringing the engines to the Soviet Union, engine designer Vladimir Klimov immediately began reverse-engineering the design. The result was the Klimov RD-45. ...
]MiG-15 - Korean War MiG-15 Fighter
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I think you are missing the point Walter, by 9000 miles or so.
No, Walter is on point.
No, Walter is on point.
Well, fair's fair, we gave it to the USA as well
Believe China is underway with the design of its 5th gen stealth fighter.
Bet the codes come with that for an extra few quid.
If the current trend towards voting green continues in Australia, we will not be committing to any conflict beyond our shores soon.
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Actually I missed this thought the first time around.
Is the 'missing' code actually REQUIRED for what we anticipate the aircraft's role to be?
There is masses of code in modern aircraft that has been left after development, some is for BIT checks/ maintenance reports etc etc. Some is for future functionality and so on. It does seem reasonable that some of it is kept confidential if not actually required.
We sold stuff to the Saudis which wasn't as capable as the RAF hardware, was there screaming and gnashing of teeth then? We were quite happy to take their money or oil chits.
Car manufacturers have lots of access codes to get 'inside' your engine management system and other equipment. They tend not to advertise how to access those - and nobody says a dicky bird.
Perhaps this is just one more storm in a teacup, stirred by moral entrepreneurs.
Is the 'missing' code actually REQUIRED for what we anticipate the aircraft's role to be?
There is masses of code in modern aircraft that has been left after development, some is for BIT checks/ maintenance reports etc etc. Some is for future functionality and so on. It does seem reasonable that some of it is kept confidential if not actually required.
We sold stuff to the Saudis which wasn't as capable as the RAF hardware, was there screaming and gnashing of teeth then? We were quite happy to take their money or oil chits.
Car manufacturers have lots of access codes to get 'inside' your engine management system and other equipment. They tend not to advertise how to access those - and nobody says a dicky bird.
Perhaps this is just one more storm in a teacup, stirred by moral entrepreneurs.
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West Coast's 'balancing act' comment made me do something I haven't done in a while - think and consider an alternative view. I have just go off teh outrage bus - Sorry to disappoint folks.
The sell out of tech to the Soviet Union by left leaning politicans did result in the MiG 15's engine and the evolutions of it.
(I suppose there is irony around the MiG15 is the reverse engineering of the AA2 Atoll from a dud Sidewinder which was reportedly carried back in one. Thank God the Reds never got their hands on a B29.)
The UK can't moan in fairness about this - as the country is a province of the EUSSR, and there is no Special in the Special Relationship anymore.
Business is, after all, business.
'We' can't demand a special place in anyone's hearts if we are shown to have welched on the deal of confidentiality in the past. Similarly the US machine can't point too judgemental a finger eastwards across the atlantic whilst wearing the robes of a blushing virgin of innocence.
I suppose that this could be ironed out if the UK still had an organic arms industry which hadn't been sold or given to either the east or west - Could we adopt SAAB or Dassault?
I could still stand seeing some re-engined, glass cockpit Buccaneers in the strike / CAS role - make sure that they are amphibious for the CVSs.
The sell out of tech to the Soviet Union by left leaning politicans did result in the MiG 15's engine and the evolutions of it.
(I suppose there is irony around the MiG15 is the reverse engineering of the AA2 Atoll from a dud Sidewinder which was reportedly carried back in one. Thank God the Reds never got their hands on a B29.)
The UK can't moan in fairness about this - as the country is a province of the EUSSR, and there is no Special in the Special Relationship anymore.
Business is, after all, business.
'We' can't demand a special place in anyone's hearts if we are shown to have welched on the deal of confidentiality in the past. Similarly the US machine can't point too judgemental a finger eastwards across the atlantic whilst wearing the robes of a blushing virgin of innocence.
I suppose that this could be ironed out if the UK still had an organic arms industry which hadn't been sold or given to either the east or west - Could we adopt SAAB or Dassault?
I could still stand seeing some re-engined, glass cockpit Buccaneers in the strike / CAS role - make sure that they are amphibious for the CVSs.
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Thank God the Reds never got their hands on a B29.)
Russian B-29 Clone — The TU-4 Story, by Wayland Mayo, Page 10
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It does seem reasonable that some of it is kept confidential if not actually required.
It doesn't matter whether or not the software is required for current functionality of the aircraft. Especially if the software is currently essential. That means its security is important.
In addition to security issues, there are property rights to consider.
The RAF or MoD doesn't have unlimited rights to modify the software. Neither does the USAF or the USN/USMC, without additional negotiations and payments due.
I'm quite sure that UK contracts for purchase of C-17's, C130's, F-4's or Douglas Dauntlesses have not included unlimited rights to modify things, at least without voiding warranties.
There's this tradition of Anglo-Saxon law and precedent. Or maybe that tradition is becoming obsolete because Anglo-Saxons are becoming obsolete, in the New World as well as the Old. From each according to his ability to each ... That's the new order, right?
If UK people want to hack F-35 systems and thereby void warranties, I suppose the UK is free to pursue that option.
It doesn't matter whether or not the software is required for current functionality of the aircraft. Especially if the software is currently essential. That means its security is important.
In addition to security issues, there are property rights to consider.
The RAF or MoD doesn't have unlimited rights to modify the software. Neither does the USAF or the USN/USMC, without additional negotiations and payments due.
I'm quite sure that UK contracts for purchase of C-17's, C130's, F-4's or Douglas Dauntlesses have not included unlimited rights to modify things, at least without voiding warranties.
There's this tradition of Anglo-Saxon law and precedent. Or maybe that tradition is becoming obsolete because Anglo-Saxons are becoming obsolete, in the New World as well as the Old. From each according to his ability to each ... That's the new order, right?
If UK people want to hack F-35 systems and thereby void warranties, I suppose the UK is free to pursue that option.
Finnpog,
Your argument loses ALL credibility when you spout such nonsense as;
"as the country is a province of the EUSSR, and there is no Special in the Special Relationship anymore."
I think that you'll find that it still is rather special, which is why the UK is the only other Tier One partner and is intimately involved in developing the aircraft and all aspects of it's systems. We were a part of the down select from the XF-32 and XF-35 and a myriad of UK companies have been involved in the design concept from day one.
Source code software is commercial in confidence in extremis on a whole host of industrial projects from lifts, trains, fire protection systems, car engine management systems to all manner of military systems. Add in a state of the art stealth capability that is cutting edge and is it any wonder that Lockheed-Martin are keen to hold onto said source soft ware codes.
I recall a conversation with a VERY senior bod in Lockheed-Martin about ten years ago who made it plain that even the US military didn't have a cat in hells chance of obtaining C-130J source software code from his company.
As someone else alluded to earlier, what do you want the source code for anyway? The F-35 will be depot serviced at 3 locations worldwide and the sensitive bits will only be serviced by LM personnel.
Your argument loses ALL credibility when you spout such nonsense as;
"as the country is a province of the EUSSR, and there is no Special in the Special Relationship anymore."
I think that you'll find that it still is rather special, which is why the UK is the only other Tier One partner and is intimately involved in developing the aircraft and all aspects of it's systems. We were a part of the down select from the XF-32 and XF-35 and a myriad of UK companies have been involved in the design concept from day one.
Source code software is commercial in confidence in extremis on a whole host of industrial projects from lifts, trains, fire protection systems, car engine management systems to all manner of military systems. Add in a state of the art stealth capability that is cutting edge and is it any wonder that Lockheed-Martin are keen to hold onto said source soft ware codes.
I recall a conversation with a VERY senior bod in Lockheed-Martin about ten years ago who made it plain that even the US military didn't have a cat in hells chance of obtaining C-130J source software code from his company.
As someone else alluded to earlier, what do you want the source code for anyway? The F-35 will be depot serviced at 3 locations worldwide and the sensitive bits will only be serviced by LM personnel.
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If you want to know what the MoD's latest position on software safety is, you need to get into this site's Standards Of Best Practice:https://ssei.org.uk/documents/
One of the key aspects with software safety on this scale isn't access to the source code per se, but confidence that the software is safe based on the processes used to develop it and the evidence presented about the product.
Having sufficient confidence (true confidence, not "it'll be ok because, gov...") will be the tricky bit.
sw
One of the key aspects with software safety on this scale isn't access to the source code per se, but confidence that the software is safe based on the processes used to develop it and the evidence presented about the product.
Having sufficient confidence (true confidence, not "it'll be ok because, gov...") will be the tricky bit.
sw
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What would we (UK) do with the source code anyway?
after not very much time you'd end up with (from a software POV) 2 completely differant aircraft
American JSF
and
British JSF
the 2 differant source codes would be incomptable, so if the yanks produce an update for AMRAAM it wouldn't work on British JSF's (or their customers) without the brits producing their own update
and if the brits integrate ASRAAM it wouldn't work on US JSF (or their customers) without producing their own update (likley?)
repeat ad infinitum
their really can only be one code to rule them all
by asking for 1xmoon (on a stick) and settling for less we (the UK) have either been very clever or very stupid and only time will tell
after not very much time you'd end up with (from a software POV) 2 completely differant aircraft
American JSF
and
British JSF
the 2 differant source codes would be incomptable, so if the yanks produce an update for AMRAAM it wouldn't work on British JSF's (or their customers) without the brits producing their own update
and if the brits integrate ASRAAM it wouldn't work on US JSF (or their customers) without producing their own update (likley?)
repeat ad infinitum
their really can only be one code to rule them all
by asking for 1xmoon (on a stick) and settling for less we (the UK) have either been very clever or very stupid and only time will tell
Evertonian
The problem is Israeli reverse engineering and subsequent sales to China. Japanese reverse engineering is also a potential problem.
And why should the USA entrust all to the EU provinces formerly known as UK?
And why should the USA entrust all to the EU provinces formerly known as UK?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
after not very much time you'd end up with (from a software POV) 2 completely differant aircraft......American JSF.....and British JSF
Last edited by ORAC; 27th Nov 2009 at 12:27.
Why you need the source code
I am only a civilian software engineer - don't want to intrude too much but I can say why we need the source code.
There are always specific needs for each user that have to be customised. This often involves writing programs that interact with the system that you have purchased.
Usually one expects documentation to tell you how to do that but documentation is as hard to create as the actual software so there is never ever enough of it in any rapidly developing advanced system. In cases where people are not sure how to do something it's great to have the source code as a reference - in fact essential. It tells you what's really happening instead of the bull**** that the docs spout.
Code is always full of bugs - especially code from big companies. So being able to discover why something isn't working yourself without waiting for some overworked LM employee to get back to you is important.
It is scary for any company to hand over this kind of stuff but they want the defence contract and they are getting paid very well indeed so I think they can **** hand it over.
There are always specific needs for each user that have to be customised. This often involves writing programs that interact with the system that you have purchased.
Usually one expects documentation to tell you how to do that but documentation is as hard to create as the actual software so there is never ever enough of it in any rapidly developing advanced system. In cases where people are not sure how to do something it's great to have the source code as a reference - in fact essential. It tells you what's really happening instead of the bull**** that the docs spout.
Code is always full of bugs - especially code from big companies. So being able to discover why something isn't working yourself without waiting for some overworked LM employee to get back to you is important.
It is scary for any company to hand over this kind of stuff but they want the defence contract and they are getting paid very well indeed so I think they can **** hand it over.
More bang for your buck
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Can the MOD just take the manufacturers word for it? Are they allowed to?
Do Airbus or Boeing release their source codes?
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It's not ownership of, or an ability to change the source code that is the issue here (as some people seem to think). It's access to the source code to analyse it. Essentially, it is considered necessary to assure the safety of the aircraft.
Thor Nogson:
In principle, yes. In practice, it's likely to be much much harder (too hard?)
Possibly, no and no.
Two's in:
As above, it's not ownership that's at stake here, it's access. But as you imply, the MoD has no access to the source code "for the US bits of the Apache". As a matter of interest, they did arrange access to the source code for the Flight Management Computer by a US company on their behalf.
pr00ne:
Not sure of the relevance of these questions but I'll give one answer as a matter of interest. No, the RAF does not have access to C-130J software code ... but they did arrange it for UK companies acting on their behalf. This is despite:
Thor Nogson:
without the opportunity to examine the source code, would it be possible to confirm airworthiness of the aircraft before entry into service?
my question is whether it can be certified as airworthy?
Can the MOD just take the manufacturers word for it? Are they allowed to?
Can the MOD just take the manufacturers word for it? Are they allowed to?
Two's in:
Ask someone how much source code the MoD owns for the US bits of the Apache - it's a round number.
pr00ne:
Isn't the software code proprietary to the company that developed it?
Does the RAF have access to the ALL of C-130J software code?
Does the US military have access to ALL of the C-130J software code?
Same questions can be posed for C-17, AIM-120.
Does the RAF have access to the ALL of C-130J software code?
Does the US military have access to ALL of the C-130J software code?
Same questions can be posed for C-17, AIM-120.
I recall a conversation with a VERY senior bod in Lockheed-Martin about ten years ago who made it plain that even the US military didn't have a cat in hells chance of obtaining C-130J source software code from his company.
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Surely one of the issues is that we are not just purchasing some of these aircraft, we are a contributing development partner.
Special relationship = one way street = load of bollaux
OP
Special relationship = one way street = load of bollaux
OP