Civie Salaries
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Civie Salaries
Guys & Gals -
Take a look at the thread at the bottom of the main page called Terms of Endearments - Its all about commercial salaries.
For all of you thinking of making the career jump to civi street - take a look at this page first and be prepared for some real eye openers.
Basically the salaries are shocking, even compared to our measely military ones (even without our benefits!)
Good luck
Take a look at the thread at the bottom of the main page called Terms of Endearments - Its all about commercial salaries.
For all of you thinking of making the career jump to civi street - take a look at this page first and be prepared for some real eye openers.
Basically the salaries are shocking, even compared to our measely military ones (even without our benefits!)
Good luck
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Know you all love to fly (or why be here) and excuse a civilian - but the Mil Training regime makes an excellent feeder into IT careers. Good presentation skills and problem solving ability + discipline makes for great project managers and senior technical types. I'd say take all your training and convert to PPL(a) or (h) and fly for fun. Use the exit period to gain business / commercial skills and you're a cinch for the £40K + benefits entry roles.
Just my two pence worth but it is based on knowledge - YWIW Senior was a commissioned navigator (Vulcans 101 / Shackeltons 8 + others - well I was very short) who was RIF'd in the mid 70's, and has done pretty well since, and the sort of candidates skills I look for when hiring I'm Project Managers (but I may be biased)
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]
Just my two pence worth but it is based on knowledge - YWIW Senior was a commissioned navigator (Vulcans 101 / Shackeltons 8 + others - well I was very short) who was RIF'd in the mid 70's, and has done pretty well since, and the sort of candidates skills I look for when hiring I'm Project Managers (but I may be biased)
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]
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Dear YOU WANT IT WHEN
I don't suppose you feel like expanding on your statement above, rather than just giving us a lick of the lolly and then taking it away.
Large / small company - what benefits - location - supernumary packages - security - pension etc....
Being ex-mil yourself you know that a HUGELY attractive package will have to be on offer to attract an aviator away from.
a. His airplane
b. His closeted and protected military environment.
Comment please....?
I don't suppose you feel like expanding on your statement above, rather than just giving us a lick of the lolly and then taking it away.
Large / small company - what benefits - location - supernumary packages - security - pension etc....
Being ex-mil yourself you know that a HUGELY attractive package will have to be on offer to attract an aviator away from.
a. His airplane
b. His closeted and protected military environment.
Comment please....?
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Right JP. I guess I asked for that. However all please accept that these are my thoughts only (always state the get out at the start)...
The commercial market is exceedingly wide (and varied) so it is not easy to match package to package as companies will always vary. My initial comment was not made to try and tempt pilots away from their craft but to remind them that flying can be for fun only and that good paying jobs exist outside of the airlines and often at better rates.
I should point out that I'm not an ex Mil type (here by grace of an open forum), YWIW senior is, but I've interviewed a lot in the past and got drunk with my mates who are in uniform. In the commercial world there is a change of mindset required - the market is very results orientated, and the training investment is generally lower. i.e. if someone drops a bo**ock then out/off they go. Training is as needed only and refresher courses are seldom offered.
IT is not just a technical or nerds role. In brief it is the ability to convert a business concept into a technical solution and to apply it back to the business in such a manner that a perceived reduction in operating costs can be achieved. Or it is the ability to keep IT running so that perceived savings are continued.
This is a skill that companies pay good money for!!!!
IT Technical roles start at about £18K and go up to the late £30s. Entrants would need to be literate and able to work through problems - it also helps if you have some idea about computers / keyboard use! Programming roles start in the low £20s and just go up for the right language. Flavour of the month appears to be either JAVA / web based ones or Visual Basic, but old third generation ones such as Cobol still command good money.
However (and here is where you can score) Project Management roles tend to start around £30K for junior types and mid £40s and up for experienced ones. Specialist skills like SAP command more - so a project manager who understands financial systems might earn £55 to £65K. Following on from Project Manager would be Programme Manager / Head of IT type roles - in these cases often salaries can be around the £60K mark as starting figures.
Different companies have different pension plans, some have none, some you contribute to and some you don't. A common offering these days is 10% of your basic salary as benefits and you decide how to draw that (gym membership, pension, hospital plan, CASH!). Almost all management roles either have a car or a car allowance (normally between £5K and £9K per annum).
It has been my experience that the military turns out pretty good logical thinkers, the ability to work under pressure and think out of the box. But also people who can go "ramp up a gear" when needed to - and understand that the working day doesn't necessarily finish at 17:30. I'm not a recruitment consultant or a careers advisor but given the choice I hire ex Mil every time - if I could, I've a pal in the Army who is great with computers and comms gear , he's a medic, trained HGV driver etc.. on about £22K per annum for a seven day week - and people get to shoot at him. He really wants out but is worried about adapting - if he'd take the plunge he could be on a cushy £25k, five day a week with no bull.
I hope this gives you some flavours, however it is almost impossible to answer your question, locations vary, roles vary, pay varies. However in last weeks Computer Weekly (a weekly trade rag if you hadn't guessed ) there was 10 sides of job adverts, probably over a 800 positions vacant, and next week there will be another 800. If you've done your 12 years, or 20 then IT can be a real option.
If anyone is intrested (please don't swamp me) then I can try and help re-structure a CV to channel it more towards civilian minds. I've done this for a couple of pals historically and they transferred into IT and both have good roles.
This is my longest post - so forgive any spelling errors please
The commercial market is exceedingly wide (and varied) so it is not easy to match package to package as companies will always vary. My initial comment was not made to try and tempt pilots away from their craft but to remind them that flying can be for fun only and that good paying jobs exist outside of the airlines and often at better rates.
I should point out that I'm not an ex Mil type (here by grace of an open forum), YWIW senior is, but I've interviewed a lot in the past and got drunk with my mates who are in uniform. In the commercial world there is a change of mindset required - the market is very results orientated, and the training investment is generally lower. i.e. if someone drops a bo**ock then out/off they go. Training is as needed only and refresher courses are seldom offered.
IT is not just a technical or nerds role. In brief it is the ability to convert a business concept into a technical solution and to apply it back to the business in such a manner that a perceived reduction in operating costs can be achieved. Or it is the ability to keep IT running so that perceived savings are continued.
This is a skill that companies pay good money for!!!!
IT Technical roles start at about £18K and go up to the late £30s. Entrants would need to be literate and able to work through problems - it also helps if you have some idea about computers / keyboard use! Programming roles start in the low £20s and just go up for the right language. Flavour of the month appears to be either JAVA / web based ones or Visual Basic, but old third generation ones such as Cobol still command good money.
However (and here is where you can score) Project Management roles tend to start around £30K for junior types and mid £40s and up for experienced ones. Specialist skills like SAP command more - so a project manager who understands financial systems might earn £55 to £65K. Following on from Project Manager would be Programme Manager / Head of IT type roles - in these cases often salaries can be around the £60K mark as starting figures.
Different companies have different pension plans, some have none, some you contribute to and some you don't. A common offering these days is 10% of your basic salary as benefits and you decide how to draw that (gym membership, pension, hospital plan, CASH!). Almost all management roles either have a car or a car allowance (normally between £5K and £9K per annum).
It has been my experience that the military turns out pretty good logical thinkers, the ability to work under pressure and think out of the box. But also people who can go "ramp up a gear" when needed to - and understand that the working day doesn't necessarily finish at 17:30. I'm not a recruitment consultant or a careers advisor but given the choice I hire ex Mil every time - if I could, I've a pal in the Army who is great with computers and comms gear , he's a medic, trained HGV driver etc.. on about £22K per annum for a seven day week - and people get to shoot at him. He really wants out but is worried about adapting - if he'd take the plunge he could be on a cushy £25k, five day a week with no bull.
I hope this gives you some flavours, however it is almost impossible to answer your question, locations vary, roles vary, pay varies. However in last weeks Computer Weekly (a weekly trade rag if you hadn't guessed ) there was 10 sides of job adverts, probably over a 800 positions vacant, and next week there will be another 800. If you've done your 12 years, or 20 then IT can be a real option.
If anyone is intrested (please don't swamp me) then I can try and help re-structure a CV to channel it more towards civilian minds. I've done this for a couple of pals historically and they transferred into IT and both have good roles.
This is my longest post - so forgive any spelling errors please
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Dear You want it When
very many thanks for that comprehensive and personal view into the realms of the REAL World.
An extremely tempting alternative for some I am sure - especially those who have some G / J6 background (means nothing to you but to those who it does look in!).
To give you an idea of the packages you will need to offer to be comparable to a Mil aviator; this is in broad terms what he/she gets now:
SNCO / Offr (OF3 & below) Basic Salary in service @ 35K
Flying Pay, about & up to 10K
free medical & dental care
excellent (one of the best) pension schemes
Boarding School Allowance of about 3k per child per term.
Cheap & sometimes very good accomodation.
free uniform
Travel to / from work expences
A nice and tidy little package when you add it all up. So for those of you in service and considering leaving - do not just look at the basic salary - look at the total package and compare.
OH - It is extremely rare, that any of us get shot at.
Last time that happened to an aircraft - anyone like to comment...?
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]
very many thanks for that comprehensive and personal view into the realms of the REAL World.
An extremely tempting alternative for some I am sure - especially those who have some G / J6 background (means nothing to you but to those who it does look in!).
To give you an idea of the packages you will need to offer to be comparable to a Mil aviator; this is in broad terms what he/she gets now:
SNCO / Offr (OF3 & below) Basic Salary in service @ 35K
Flying Pay, about & up to 10K
free medical & dental care
excellent (one of the best) pension schemes
Boarding School Allowance of about 3k per child per term.
Cheap & sometimes very good accomodation.
free uniform
Travel to / from work expences
A nice and tidy little package when you add it all up. So for those of you in service and considering leaving - do not just look at the basic salary - look at the total package and compare.
OH - It is extremely rare, that any of us get shot at.
Last time that happened to an aircraft - anyone like to comment...?
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]
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JP - just trying to be helpful. Which is the REAL world you refer to 
we're all in this together surely?
It would appear to be an excellent package (circa £60k ish) that is being offered in services that any commercial environment would be hard put to match. I'm in no way trying to tempt people over but either you retire and put your feet up or you have to do something else for the next twenty / thirty years. Not everyone can get a flying role - so its worth hearing about what skills are transferable.
£60K per annum roles are rare unless you have some high value skill to sell - so I guess it's back to bucking for the LHS of a British Airways jet.
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]
we're all in this together surely?It would appear to be an excellent package (circa £60k ish) that is being offered in services that any commercial environment would be hard put to match. I'm in no way trying to tempt people over but either you retire and put your feet up or you have to do something else for the next twenty / thirty years. Not everyone can get a flying role - so its worth hearing about what skills are transferable.
£60K per annum roles are rare unless you have some high value skill to sell - so I guess it's back to bucking for the LHS of a British Airways jet.
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]
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Dear YWIW
No offence meant and probably not directly aimed at you. Indirectly I suspect I am aiming my messages at those who may have itchy feet - and to get them to look at totality rather than what exists at the bottom of their pay statements - You will be amazed what is taken out at source..!
I hope you don't mind too much at being a tool for my explanation of what we are in reciept of.
And that package goes up by more than inflation each year...Just have to watch out that we don't get too sidelined with the benefits under current government.
ITS ALWAYS A THREAT.
best wishes and thanks...JP
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]
No offence meant and probably not directly aimed at you. Indirectly I suspect I am aiming my messages at those who may have itchy feet - and to get them to look at totality rather than what exists at the bottom of their pay statements - You will be amazed what is taken out at source..!
I hope you don't mind too much at being a tool for my explanation of what we are in reciept of.
And that package goes up by more than inflation each year...Just have to watch out that we don't get too sidelined with the benefits under current government.
ITS ALWAYS A THREAT.
best wishes and thanks...JP
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]
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Dear JP - don't mind being your tool (surely a joke in here somewhere ), no problem to burn up my lunch time answering posts etc.. bit worried about the "probably not aimed" statement. Either it was or it wasn't. Enjoy life.
Edited: After 7 of 9s post....
One of the most common statements you hear when someone leaves a role is "Money". However when you start to dig (exit interviews) you normally find that there are other issues - usually pertaining to a personality clash, or a feeling of lack of direction or just being hacked off. Money is just the easy one to hang a hat on to.
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]
), no problem to burn up my lunch time answering posts etc.. bit worried about the "probably not aimed" statement. Either it was or it wasn't. Enjoy life. Edited: After 7 of 9s post....
One of the most common statements you hear when someone leaves a role is "Money". However when you start to dig (exit interviews) you normally find that there are other issues - usually pertaining to a personality clash, or a feeling of lack of direction or just being hacked off. Money is just the easy one to hang a hat on to.
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]
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Jemima,
Agree with a lot of what you say - the Military package, as a whole, is pretty good. However, what you must also factor into the equation is the pension and gratuity available at the 38/16 point - not an insignificant amount for a Sqn Ldr. Add those to your civvy salary and things look a lot better. However, all my mates who have left for the airlines agree that money was not the main factor in their decision to leave the Service. Family stability, time away from home, p*ss poor management, second rate equipment etc are among the reasons that they left. These are the same factors that will force me out - not dissatisfaction with my salary.
Agree with a lot of what you say - the Military package, as a whole, is pretty good. However, what you must also factor into the equation is the pension and gratuity available at the 38/16 point - not an insignificant amount for a Sqn Ldr. Add those to your civvy salary and things look a lot better. However, all my mates who have left for the airlines agree that money was not the main factor in their decision to leave the Service. Family stability, time away from home, p*ss poor management, second rate equipment etc are among the reasons that they left. These are the same factors that will force me out - not dissatisfaction with my salary.
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Absolutely concur.
And the fact that with so many people leaving, the pyramid becomes shallower, and thus promotion up to the top becomes easier..
In a real world...everyone of us must make our own decision based upon our own circumstances.
Regards.
And the fact that with so many people leaving, the pyramid becomes shallower, and thus promotion up to the top becomes easier..
In a real world...everyone of us must make our own decision based upon our own circumstances.
Regards.
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I think that using a military aviators' forum for trying to lure military aviators out of their service is a cheap shot.
One of my best mates PVR'd into a deepening recession and the only job he could find was at the tatty end of the charter airline business. Operating standards were scandalous. The CAA was so short of cash that they employed one of the senior captains as their agent. There was competition between the captains as to who could uplift the least fuel to make destinations like Teneriffe, where he reckoned that every arrival from his company was legally in a fuel emergency; but none was declared. The company went bust evnetually and was bought out by BA. Even his pension fund was dodgy at one stage.
He died a couple of years ago (of cancer) still vituperating about civil aviation.
One of my best mates PVR'd into a deepening recession and the only job he could find was at the tatty end of the charter airline business. Operating standards were scandalous. The CAA was so short of cash that they employed one of the senior captains as their agent. There was competition between the captains as to who could uplift the least fuel to make destinations like Teneriffe, where he reckoned that every arrival from his company was legally in a fuel emergency; but none was declared. The company went bust evnetually and was bought out by BA. Even his pension fund was dodgy at one stage.
He died a couple of years ago (of cancer) still vituperating about civil aviation.
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Hey FV, Was that shot aimed at me? If so read the f**king thread - I was trying to help JP in an honest question - she is the one that twisted it.
What the heck, bo**ocks to you and your mates (all close ranks - I figure civis arn't welcome here anyway) if that is your attitude. I will stay out of this forum for the future.
No big loss until one of you is on the other side of a recruiting desk <G> Very unlikely.
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]
2nd Aug: Following Beagles comments on page 2
OK - here in lies the danger of replying in anger (having had a bad day - no excuse). FV sorry for your loss, but I most certainly was not trying to tempt people away - far from it I was trying to highlight an alternative route having made the decision. If there is anoter RIF then IT is an option to run in parallel with General Avation - sure you're not going at 500kts + anymore (lucky to hit a 100Kts in a C150) but you're still flying.
And as I said to JP in a private message - of course I will still hold Mil experience / training as a major plus in any recruitment cycle. Nuff said?
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]
What the heck, bo**ocks to you and your mates (all close ranks - I figure civis arn't welcome here anyway) if that is your attitude. I will stay out of this forum for the future.
No big loss until one of you is on the other side of a recruiting desk <G> Very unlikely.
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]
2nd Aug: Following Beagles comments on page 2
OK - here in lies the danger of replying in anger (having had a bad day - no excuse). FV sorry for your loss, but I most certainly was not trying to tempt people away - far from it I was trying to highlight an alternative route having made the decision. If there is anoter RIF then IT is an option to run in parallel with General Avation - sure you're not going at 500kts + anymore (lucky to hit a 100Kts in a C150) but you're still flying.
And as I said to JP in a private message - of course I will still hold Mil experience / training as a major plus in any recruitment cycle. Nuff said?
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]
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OH DEAR
it seems as if we have all lost the plot - what started with a genuine observation and some light hearted chat with a well meaning visitor has been twisted. No intention was meant in any way to anyone..
For those of you who have bitter pills to chew about poaching etc.. we are all big boys and gals and make the decision to leave having done as much research as possible on what the future may hold.
I suggest that this forum may be just one of those research tools. It is certainly not a bitching area for those of you who have had mates who made the wrong decision at the wrong time.
Enough preaching...lets all be adults and if you are to partake in this thread, do it like a responsible adult, with some constructive comment please.
Again many well meant thanks to all of you have given me your opinion and in some cases help.
it seems as if we have all lost the plot - what started with a genuine observation and some light hearted chat with a well meaning visitor has been twisted. No intention was meant in any way to anyone..
For those of you who have bitter pills to chew about poaching etc.. we are all big boys and gals and make the decision to leave having done as much research as possible on what the future may hold.
I suggest that this forum may be just one of those research tools. It is certainly not a bitching area for those of you who have had mates who made the wrong decision at the wrong time.
Enough preaching...lets all be adults and if you are to partake in this thread, do it like a responsible adult, with some constructive comment please.
Again many well meant thanks to all of you have given me your opinion and in some cases help.
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for Flatus Veteranus
Actually what has dissapointed me most is you Michael.
The fact that you are not even military but seem to be destructive, and have little to add really grinds of hypocrisy when reading your last and only input.
So however many posts you make..do them somewhere else.
Bye Bye OLD MAN.
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]
Actually what has dissapointed me most is you Michael.
The fact that you are not even military but seem to be destructive, and have little to add really grinds of hypocrisy when reading your last and only input.
So however many posts you make..do them somewhere else.
Bye Bye OLD MAN.
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]
Oh the intemperance of youth. Learn to distinguish between opinion and personal abuse please! I was finding this thread quite interesting until it deteriorated into yoof-cuwcha abuse. Incidentally, the pension at 55 is far from good as it is based on only 75% of an aircrew officers' annual salary whereas it's based on 100% for some blotter-sucking rubber desk johnny!
That someone's best friend succumbed to terminal cancer might at least evoke some sympathy rather than just blatant rudeness.
Now off to bed with you!! Smacked bottom and no hot milk!!
...oh well - back to my copy of 'The Oldie'!
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
That someone's best friend succumbed to terminal cancer might at least evoke some sympathy rather than just blatant rudeness.
Now off to bed with you!! Smacked bottom and no hot milk!!
...oh well - back to my copy of 'The Oldie'!
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
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Er, beg to differ, but having read again what was a light hearted discussion with some interesting comment from YWIW and Jemima, it was FV who butted in and became rude. I don't believe that what YWIW was a 'cheap shot', quite the opposite. What he said was of value and interesting. As for sympathy, well guess what, I imagine all of us have lost friends and relatives to cancer, not sure of the relevance to the discussion though (and I am genuinely sympathetic, don't get me wrong).
To YWIW, don't let the over agressive contributors force you out, especially as these are the same people who thought that it was appropriate to abuse Mach t Knife on a different thread for asking if we can have more aircrew input.
As a general comment I wonder why so many of the threads descend into personal abuse and vitriol. Is it because those of you that think it is ok to abuse someone for just stating their opinion are hiding behind the veil of anonimity?
The fountain of Saint Elias, sulphurous and saponaceous, was renowned for its calming influence on all who suffered from abuse of lechery or alcohol, or from ingrowing toe-nails. - Norman Douglas
Another vaguely irrelevant quote next week.
To YWIW, don't let the over agressive contributors force you out, especially as these are the same people who thought that it was appropriate to abuse Mach t Knife on a different thread for asking if we can have more aircrew input.
As a general comment I wonder why so many of the threads descend into personal abuse and vitriol. Is it because those of you that think it is ok to abuse someone for just stating their opinion are hiding behind the veil of anonimity?
The fountain of Saint Elias, sulphurous and saponaceous, was renowned for its calming influence on all who suffered from abuse of lechery or alcohol, or from ingrowing toe-nails. - Norman Douglas
Another vaguely irrelevant quote next week.
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Got to admit I saw the thread a little differently.
Very interesting info and it is true that many mil guys see the grass greener on the other side.
If mil aviators are that easy to 'lure' then we are in a more sorry state than we all realised.
It's also true to say that most aviators opt for the obvious - airlines. There 'may' be lots of other equally interesting/challenging careers out there for the ones who want to leave other than in aviation.
Moosa Aswayita!
Very interesting info and it is true that many mil guys see the grass greener on the other side.
If mil aviators are that easy to 'lure' then we are in a more sorry state than we all realised.
It's also true to say that most aviators opt for the obvious - airlines. There 'may' be lots of other equally interesting/challenging careers out there for the ones who want to leave other than in aviation.
Moosa Aswayita!