The frustration of Pirates?
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The frustration of Pirates?
Can't help but think why the task force is out there off Somalia, Yemen etc when all they seem to do is just watch ships get taken over? Might sound harsh but watching the Ross Kemp on Pirates, he was flying with the Royal Navy in their Merlin and a ship put out a mayday saying they were being followed by pirates. When the Merlin turned up the pirates seemed to turn away and the Merlin crews went back to their ship. A call then came in that night of the same ship being attacked and boarded by those same pirates.
The Merlin was once again sent out and told to RTB and not to intervene because the pirates "were already onboard".
The crew of the Merlin swore and were clearly frustrated on the fact they cannot do anything once the ship is boarded (for political reasons and crews safety i assume).
Then we have the RFA ship sheparding the Pirates on the British yacht off the seycheles with our chaps armed and just watching it just feet away not being able to intervene. Those British citizens are now in Somalia as hostages.
I have also seen on the news video of RN ships getting within several hundred metres of pirate ships but not doing anything at all.
Surely if pirate boats are going around illegally boarding ships and armed to the teeth, that warrants any intervention on any Navy if they see a pirate boat. Why do they have to WAIT for them to attack when they can clearly see (sometimes) they have RPG's and AK's onboard.
Different rules it seems for the USN and French Navy whereby they have undertaken several armed assaults (some with a not so good outcome) but have also raided and destroyed quite a few 'suspected' pirate skiffs and they seem to be on a pro-active patrol.... whereby the RN sits back and watches.
Are we under a different ROE?
Another French assault here French Navy Storms Pirate Ship, Arrests 12 - Defense News recently arrested 12 pirates and they destroyed their mothership.
I know also that when we do eventually *arrest* the pirates for pirating the seizing ships we have to release them shortly after because we are NOT allowed to detain them.
If the USCG have ROE to shoot the boat upon sight a drug runner who maynot even have any weapons (but i expect tehy do)
Why does a navy (or several navies) have no authority to do so with Pirates who clearly put lives in danger and hold ships to ransom.
So... what is the point of being out there when we cannot do anything to prevent the pirates doing their thing and when we do, we have to release them. It seems absurd and must one of the most frustrating things for the navy or marines to do.
The Merlin was once again sent out and told to RTB and not to intervene because the pirates "were already onboard".
The crew of the Merlin swore and were clearly frustrated on the fact they cannot do anything once the ship is boarded (for political reasons and crews safety i assume).
Then we have the RFA ship sheparding the Pirates on the British yacht off the seycheles with our chaps armed and just watching it just feet away not being able to intervene. Those British citizens are now in Somalia as hostages.
I have also seen on the news video of RN ships getting within several hundred metres of pirate ships but not doing anything at all.
Surely if pirate boats are going around illegally boarding ships and armed to the teeth, that warrants any intervention on any Navy if they see a pirate boat. Why do they have to WAIT for them to attack when they can clearly see (sometimes) they have RPG's and AK's onboard.
Different rules it seems for the USN and French Navy whereby they have undertaken several armed assaults (some with a not so good outcome) but have also raided and destroyed quite a few 'suspected' pirate skiffs and they seem to be on a pro-active patrol.... whereby the RN sits back and watches.
Are we under a different ROE?
Another French assault here French Navy Storms Pirate Ship, Arrests 12 - Defense News recently arrested 12 pirates and they destroyed their mothership.
I know also that when we do eventually *arrest* the pirates for pirating the seizing ships we have to release them shortly after because we are NOT allowed to detain them.
If the USCG have ROE to shoot the boat upon sight a drug runner who maynot even have any weapons (but i expect tehy do)
Why does a navy (or several navies) have no authority to do so with Pirates who clearly put lives in danger and hold ships to ransom.
So... what is the point of being out there when we cannot do anything to prevent the pirates doing their thing and when we do, we have to release them. It seems absurd and must one of the most frustrating things for the navy or marines to do.
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The RoE are very risk averse. That said, they go some way to avoiding; Ship sunk by Indian Navy was Thai fishing trawler: IMB
IMB received a report about mistake by Indian Navy from Thai trawler's owner Bangkok-based Sirichai Fisheries.
IMB received a report about mistake by Indian Navy from Thai trawler's owner Bangkok-based Sirichai Fisheries.
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"Different rules it seems for the USN and French Navy whereby they have undertaken several armed assaults (some with a not so good outcome) but have also raided and destroyed quite a few 'suspected' pirate skiffs and they seem to be on a pro-active patrol.... whereby the RN sits back and watches."
Lets just hope its not in danger of becoming a habit after what happened to the team from HMS Cornwall... I know we're becoming a shadow of what we used to be, but this is taking the p***.
Taken to its logical conclusion... build two aircraft carriers, sell one to the Indians and the other, if there is a Mumbai/ 9/11 style attack, just sits by watching hosting cocktail parties...
Lets just hope its not in danger of becoming a habit after what happened to the team from HMS Cornwall... I know we're becoming a shadow of what we used to be, but this is taking the p***.
Taken to its logical conclusion... build two aircraft carriers, sell one to the Indians and the other, if there is a Mumbai/ 9/11 style attack, just sits by watching hosting cocktail parties...
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I was told recently by a retired RN Commodore that the UK Govt has shoved its oar in regarding International Law on Piracy. RN has been told not to arrest as the pirates might then claim refugee status in UK.
Under International Law I understand that you can shoot them.
There are also increasingly serious mutterings from marine insurers at Lloyds about buying and crewing their own anti-pirate/escort ships.
NB the crew of an RFA ship are mostly civilians.
Under International Law I understand that you can shoot them.
There are also increasingly serious mutterings from marine insurers at Lloyds about buying and crewing their own anti-pirate/escort ships.
NB the crew of an RFA ship are mostly civilians.
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The British East India Company armed its merchant ships to naval standards (including marines) and on land, introduced its own army to combat brigands. We all know what that led to. Imperialism is frowned upon these days. 
On the other hand, in the Malacca Straits the pirates are wary of all Russian vessels since pirates boarded one and found themselves facing a heavily armed crew who shot all but one dead, then put the survivor back in his boat and sent him on his way, with a picture of the Russian flag to show his friends back in Indonesia.
On the other hand, in the Malacca Straits the pirates are wary of all Russian vessels since pirates boarded one and found themselves facing a heavily armed crew who shot all but one dead, then put the survivor back in his boat and sent him on his way, with a picture of the Russian flag to show his friends back in Indonesia.
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in the Malacca Straits the pirates are wary of all Russian vessels since pirates boarded one and found themselves facing a heavily armed crew who shot all but one dead, then put the survivor back in his boat and sent him on his way, with a picture of the Russian flag to show his friends back in Indonesia
There's a letter in today's Telegraph that is an antidote to the "Let's go in guns blazing, it's what Nelson would have done" crowd:
SIR – The Royal Navy has been criticised for lack of action by the civilian-manned Royal Fleet Auxiliary tanker Wave Knight.
When this vessel arrived, the Chandlers were already the captives of armed Somali pirates. Accurate fire against people clustered in a small boat bobbing up and down is difficult enough for experts, let alone enthusiastic non-specialists.
At least we avoided the headline, “Royal Navy kills Britons in bungled rescue attempt”. Last year, an Indian frigate sank a hijacked Thai trawler, erroneously believing it to be a pirate mother ship, and 15 fishermen tied up below decks died.
This is real life, not a video game with a “play again” button.
Lt Cdr R.J. Hoole
Waterlooville, Hampshire
When this vessel arrived, the Chandlers were already the captives of armed Somali pirates. Accurate fire against people clustered in a small boat bobbing up and down is difficult enough for experts, let alone enthusiastic non-specialists.
At least we avoided the headline, “Royal Navy kills Britons in bungled rescue attempt”. Last year, an Indian frigate sank a hijacked Thai trawler, erroneously believing it to be a pirate mother ship, and 15 fishermen tied up below decks died.
This is real life, not a video game with a “play again” button.
Lt Cdr R.J. Hoole
Waterlooville, Hampshire
Pircay - the law
'International Law' does not authorise the execution of pirates; rather piracy is a peremptory norm (jus cogens) - along with genocide, for example - that is based on the acceptance of fundamental, natural laws that apply to all States, without derogation.
Under the emerging concept of international individual criminal responsiblity, piracy offenders are guilty of a crime agaisnt international society and can thus be punished by international tribunals or by any State at all. Moreovoer, jurisdiction to hear charges is not confined to the State on whose territory the act took place, or the national state of the offender. This neatly gets around the issue of terre nullis - ie international waters. As far as I can recall, there are no standing international piracy tribunali.
Part of the problem is that unbder UK Law, alleged offenders have to be arrested and processed in accordance with PACE 1974 - one of the reasons that the RN travels with US Coast Guard Officers in some locations, who are attested officers of the law. Off Somalia, most offenders captured by the European or NATO missions are handed over to Kenya, where ther eis legal entity and a transparent judicial system.
Under the emerging concept of international individual criminal responsiblity, piracy offenders are guilty of a crime agaisnt international society and can thus be punished by international tribunals or by any State at all. Moreovoer, jurisdiction to hear charges is not confined to the State on whose territory the act took place, or the national state of the offender. This neatly gets around the issue of terre nullis - ie international waters. As far as I can recall, there are no standing international piracy tribunali.
Part of the problem is that unbder UK Law, alleged offenders have to be arrested and processed in accordance with PACE 1974 - one of the reasons that the RN travels with US Coast Guard Officers in some locations, who are attested officers of the law. Off Somalia, most offenders captured by the European or NATO missions are handed over to Kenya, where ther eis legal entity and a transparent judicial system.
On the other hand, in the Malacca Straits the pirates are wary of all Russian vessels since pirates boarded one and found themselves facing a heavily armed crew who shot all but one dead, then put the survivor back in his boat and sent him on his way, with a picture of the Russian flag to show his friends back in Indonesia.
From Bob Woodward's book Veil
Hezbollah had kidnapped four Soviet diplomats from Beirut during the fall of 1985. One they murdered straightaway. The others they held in captivity.
In response, the KGB seized the relative of a Hezbollah leader. As part of Moscow's anti-terrorism policy, the KGB castrated him, stuffed his testicles in his mouth, shot him in the head and sent the body back to Hezbollah. The KGB included a message that other members of the Party of God would die in a similar manner if the three Soviets were not released.
Shortly afterward, Hezbollah set free the three remaining Soviet hostages. Soviet interests in Lebanon were never similarly menaced again.
Hezbollah had kidnapped four Soviet diplomats from Beirut during the fall of 1985. One they murdered straightaway. The others they held in captivity.
In response, the KGB seized the relative of a Hezbollah leader. As part of Moscow's anti-terrorism policy, the KGB castrated him, stuffed his testicles in his mouth, shot him in the head and sent the body back to Hezbollah. The KGB included a message that other members of the Party of God would die in a similar manner if the three Soviets were not released.
Shortly afterward, Hezbollah set free the three remaining Soviet hostages. Soviet interests in Lebanon were never similarly menaced again.
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Surely all ships we send out there now should have a few Marines onboard with the relevent kit to aid such a thing as that with the yacht.
When a US crewed Ship was pirated it was shadowed by a Destroyer. The crew were put onto a skiff and the Captain jumped into the water but was captured again.
The US forces had several snipers set up on the warship and both took out several pirates in one go in simultaineous hits... the result was the Captain was able to escape again and the pirates were killed.
Isn't that how it should be?
I know a gung-ho approach isn't always needed but in the case of pirates who are armed with such weapons, stealing from ships and holding crew hostage then surely the only outcome (if it can be done at the time) is to conduct similar operations and get rid of them.
We have a habit just talking to the other side (we do it in Afghanistan too according to the news reports) when we should be dealing with them in another manner.
It's a case of the other nations doing what is needed.... whereas the British approach is to mostly "Talk" and be "Political" over it all the time. It is like it in the Indian Ocean, Red Sea and Afghanistan.
Is this Government afraid of taking action? Do they think that public 'say' would be against the actions of the Royal Navy if they did conduct such offensive operations (pre-emptive) against the pirates?
I have a feeling the majority of civilians would back such operations if it kept civilians being held hostage all the time.
Use the Merlins out there and put them to good use, it seems that is what the crew onboard wanted to do... with their swearing and frustration on the programme they are fed up with pussy footing around flying in circles watching the pirates humiliate them....
When a US crewed Ship was pirated it was shadowed by a Destroyer. The crew were put onto a skiff and the Captain jumped into the water but was captured again.
The US forces had several snipers set up on the warship and both took out several pirates in one go in simultaineous hits... the result was the Captain was able to escape again and the pirates were killed.
Isn't that how it should be?
I know a gung-ho approach isn't always needed but in the case of pirates who are armed with such weapons, stealing from ships and holding crew hostage then surely the only outcome (if it can be done at the time) is to conduct similar operations and get rid of them.
We have a habit just talking to the other side (we do it in Afghanistan too according to the news reports) when we should be dealing with them in another manner.
It's a case of the other nations doing what is needed.... whereas the British approach is to mostly "Talk" and be "Political" over it all the time. It is like it in the Indian Ocean, Red Sea and Afghanistan.
Is this Government afraid of taking action? Do they think that public 'say' would be against the actions of the Royal Navy if they did conduct such offensive operations (pre-emptive) against the pirates?
I have a feeling the majority of civilians would back such operations if it kept civilians being held hostage all the time.
Use the Merlins out there and put them to good use, it seems that is what the crew onboard wanted to do... with their swearing and frustration on the programme they are fed up with pussy footing around flying in circles watching the pirates humiliate them....
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Here is the series if anyone missed it.
Part 1. YouTube - Ross Kemp In Search Of Pirates 1 (1/5)
Around 4:45min is when Ross joins HMS Northumberland...
He then patrols with the Merlin crew.
Part 2. YouTube - Ross Kemp In Search Of Pirates 1 (2/5)
Continued onboard Northumberland
You can click on the rest on the right hand side of Youtube.
Part 1. YouTube - Ross Kemp In Search Of Pirates 1 (1/5)
Around 4:45min is when Ross joins HMS Northumberland...
He then patrols with the Merlin crew.
Part 2. YouTube - Ross Kemp In Search Of Pirates 1 (2/5)
Continued onboard Northumberland
You can click on the rest on the right hand side of Youtube.
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I reckon the story of the Trojan Horse has some relevance here, and position the container ship so it will definitely be captured. Keep the Press out and do an extreme clean up. If this contravenes what Western military find unacceptable, use mercenaries. Thats my tuppence worth.
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Just a thought:
There's a lot of soldiers that are coming home from sandy places. Let them have their "home leave" and then let them volunteer for "protection duty" aboard random ships in the region for a month or two at a time. Arm them, allow them to rest and let them react with maximum force if attacked.
As the soldier, you "pays your money and takes your chance"... You could get an oil tanker or a pleasure cruise - the former is probably far more likely... But, it's "easy time" after you get over the seasickness.
The deterrent factor is huge... and I'm sure there will be sufficient volunteers for the program...
There's a lot of soldiers that are coming home from sandy places. Let them have their "home leave" and then let them volunteer for "protection duty" aboard random ships in the region for a month or two at a time. Arm them, allow them to rest and let them react with maximum force if attacked.
As the soldier, you "pays your money and takes your chance"... You could get an oil tanker or a pleasure cruise - the former is probably far more likely... But, it's "easy time" after you get over the seasickness.
The deterrent factor is huge... and I'm sure there will be sufficient volunteers for the program...
When discussing the piracy issue I'm surprised that this hasn't been mentioned:
Somali Cruises - Cruise along Africa's east coast!
No need to be surprised, Biggus http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/3796...uise-ship.html seems remarkably similar .....
Jack
Somali Cruises - Cruise along Africa's east coast!
No need to be surprised, Biggus http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/3796...uise-ship.html seems remarkably similar .....
Jack
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"piggybank"
I reckon the story of the Trojan Horse has some relevance here, and position the container ship so it will definitely be captured. Keep the Press out and do an extreme clean up. If this contravenes what Western military find unacceptable, use mercenaries. Thats my tuppence worth.
Am with you , am sure the guys at the SBS would love a crack at this where its sanctioned by HMG of "casual" at a much higher rate of pay !
doesnt it come back to the " best defence is offence" ????
I reckon the story of the Trojan Horse has some relevance here, and position the container ship so it will definitely be captured. Keep the Press out and do an extreme clean up. If this contravenes what Western military find unacceptable, use mercenaries. Thats my tuppence worth.
Am with you , am sure the guys at the SBS would love a crack at this where its sanctioned by HMG of "casual" at a much higher rate of pay !
doesnt it come back to the " best defence is offence" ????
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Romeo Oscar Golf
You make a good point. It has long been known that in several multinational operations, the Russian 'peace makers' get a lot less problems than western 'peace keepers'.
I suppose it does not take long for the average trouble maker to get the difference when dealing with western of Russian troops.
Throw stones at British* soldiers, and receive food, sweets and medical aid.
Throw stones at Russian soldiers and get simply shot, and left to rot.
*For British, read: many of the western countries. And I say counrties, as the troops on the ground are following their political masters orders, rather than doing what they may feel is best!
You make a good point. It has long been known that in several multinational operations, the Russian 'peace makers' get a lot less problems than western 'peace keepers'.
I suppose it does not take long for the average trouble maker to get the difference when dealing with western of Russian troops.
Throw stones at British* soldiers, and receive food, sweets and medical aid.
Throw stones at Russian soldiers and get simply shot, and left to rot.
*For British, read: many of the western countries. And I say counrties, as the troops on the ground are following their political masters orders, rather than doing what they may feel is best!
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Problem is when you remove the morality in regards to ROE, you remove it from general circulation too, which leads to
1. Pilfering and selling your soldiers rations
2. Selling your troops as labourers
3. Even worse selling them as hostages to the other side
4. Or how about selling your ammunition to the enemy and leaving your own troops short.
5. Maybe bungling the odd CT raid and killing theatres worth of people or scores of young kids in a school in Beslan.
Yup, I can see lots of advantages in adopting Russian military standards
1. Pilfering and selling your soldiers rations
2. Selling your troops as labourers
3. Even worse selling them as hostages to the other side
4. Or how about selling your ammunition to the enemy and leaving your own troops short.
5. Maybe bungling the odd CT raid and killing theatres worth of people or scores of young kids in a school in Beslan.
Yup, I can see lots of advantages in adopting Russian military standards
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Yup, I can see lots of advantages in adopting Russian military standards
What needs to be done is to meet action with equal or greater reaction. Simply ignoring the potential result is to promote such stupidity as "political correctness" or any other version of societal idiocy.
You might laugh at the statements above but think carefully about why Russia et al don't have an immigration problem while the more "liberal" thinking countries are being overrun by those who profess to hate the country they are choosing to move to.
Racist? Absolutely not. Realist? Absolutely. Eyes wide open? Clearly more so than some who would surrender themselves to the will of others.
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Well they are at it again.
They have shot dead the North Korean captain of the ship they took over a few days ago.
They have also tried to re-capture the Maersk Alabama which was held by pirates a few months ago.
However... this time round the Alabama had armed crew and fired back at the pirates who retreated.
So it takes civilian crews to hire mercenaries or do it themselves because the very task force sent out to police the area can't do it because they have their hands tied...
"A patrol plane flew to the area" it was said in the same piece.
Well what is that going to do? Drop dinghys i expect to the pirates if they capsize.
There are loads of Special Forces in Camp Lemona just up the coast from Somalia... and according to the Ross Kemp Doc, over 30 pirate training camps exist... yet why haven't they been "shut" down or taken out like they did with the terrorist training camps in Afghanistan.
Afterall.....they are terrorists, boating around international waters with rocket launchers, machine guns, shooting dead civilian crew.
It is interesting however that the US have now introduced the MQ-9 Reaper for finding pirates around the Seychelles. A ship was attacked this week the furthest yet at 1000 miles from Somalia.
Notice that they are using the Reaper which is able to fire off a few Hellfires. Perfect for motherships.
BBC NEWS | Africa | Drones scour the sea for pirates
What do we have in the Seychelles? An RFA tanker with chaps onboard armed with SA80's and one or two Machine guns.
They have shot dead the North Korean captain of the ship they took over a few days ago.
They have also tried to re-capture the Maersk Alabama which was held by pirates a few months ago.
However... this time round the Alabama had armed crew and fired back at the pirates who retreated.
So it takes civilian crews to hire mercenaries or do it themselves because the very task force sent out to police the area can't do it because they have their hands tied...
"A patrol plane flew to the area" it was said in the same piece.
Well what is that going to do? Drop dinghys i expect to the pirates if they capsize.
There are loads of Special Forces in Camp Lemona just up the coast from Somalia... and according to the Ross Kemp Doc, over 30 pirate training camps exist... yet why haven't they been "shut" down or taken out like they did with the terrorist training camps in Afghanistan.
Afterall.....they are terrorists, boating around international waters with rocket launchers, machine guns, shooting dead civilian crew.
It is interesting however that the US have now introduced the MQ-9 Reaper for finding pirates around the Seychelles. A ship was attacked this week the furthest yet at 1000 miles from Somalia.
Notice that they are using the Reaper which is able to fire off a few Hellfires. Perfect for motherships.
BBC NEWS | Africa | Drones scour the sea for pirates
What do we have in the Seychelles? An RFA tanker with chaps onboard armed with SA80's and one or two Machine guns.