BAE Mantis drone doing flight tests in Australia
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Do The US Army Predators Fire Hellfires...? - Or does the USAF (with its 'Pilot') hold that privilege.....
...answer - USAF=Armed,
US ARMY = UNARMED...
for all those Airpower Graduates.....
USAF = CAS + ISR
US ARMY = ISR....
...answer - USAF=Armed,
US ARMY = UNARMED...
for all those Airpower Graduates.....
USAF = CAS + ISR
US ARMY = ISR....
Last edited by L J R; 19th Nov 2009 at 22:12.
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Can someone help me out here. Maybe I am missing an obvious point, but isn't mantis an autonomous (to whatever extent) aircraft, while the more advanced (in the above article) avenger is still remotely piloted.
What would be the real advantage of autonomous aircraft. Is it that they are cheaper to fly, or is is that they do not rely on inputs from elsewhere and so cannot have their flight affected by a lack of comms (due to enemy action or whatever).
As I said, I am probably missing something, but as far as I was aware, the only aircraft that could decide who was a goody and who was a baddy*, was the fictional 'airwolf' helicopter.
* I did think of problems related to U.S. software here, in relation to U.S. troops/Chinese embassy staff, but it was in poor taste, so will not mention it
.
What would be the real advantage of autonomous aircraft. Is it that they are cheaper to fly, or is is that they do not rely on inputs from elsewhere and so cannot have their flight affected by a lack of comms (due to enemy action or whatever).
As I said, I am probably missing something, but as far as I was aware, the only aircraft that could decide who was a goody and who was a baddy*, was the fictional 'airwolf' helicopter.
* I did think of problems related to U.S. software here, in relation to U.S. troops/Chinese embassy staff, but it was in poor taste, so will not mention it
.
Autonomy
The benefit to autonomy that I have seen statements about is that it means you only need satellite uplink bandwidth for the bits of the mission where you want to watch something or blow something up. I don't believe (my opinion only) that actual attacks would be autonomous in many cases.
This makes lots of sense to me. You don't need pilots for the start and end phases of the mission so probably a few pilots can run a fleet of planes - that must have cost savings too. You can also have more planes in one area.
I don't think Mantis has to be physically amazing. i.e. as a software engineer I think that autonomy sounds much more difficult to me than the engineering side of things (AI has been very slow to develop). Software seems to always lag physical stuff. So I'd be thinking low risk on the hardware so that I could put maximum effort into really useful software. But that's just me.
This makes lots of sense to me. You don't need pilots for the start and end phases of the mission so probably a few pilots can run a fleet of planes - that must have cost savings too. You can also have more planes in one area.
I don't think Mantis has to be physically amazing. i.e. as a software engineer I think that autonomy sounds much more difficult to me than the engineering side of things (AI has been very slow to develop). Software seems to always lag physical stuff. So I'd be thinking low risk on the hardware so that I could put maximum effort into really useful software. But that's just me.
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AIUI, the idea is that you would have something that you can load up and line up on an airstrip and get it to fly to a grid and perform tasks without constant intervention from a groundstation and an operator. An operator would only be needed for interpreting visual data - ie potential targets etc. You would still need an operator, but the theory is you dont need to train him/her in airmanship etc. It probably might mean that there will be fewer instances of prangs due to pilot error - a major cause of loss to UAV's.
Can someone help me out here. Maybe I am missing an obvious point, but isn't mantis an autonomous (to whatever extent) aircraft, while the more advanced (in the above article) avenger is still remotely piloted.
One of my favourite quotes from a German WWII General is:
“The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practises chaos on a daily basis.”
Anyway, for the more mundane ISR tasks most UAVs can exhibit a level of autonomy by flying a pre-planned mission - or even use the autopilot! However, when this mission switches from ISR to CAS to CSAR to SCAR to ISR to FP to Convoy Protection in an environment where ROZs are springing up left, right and centre, for indirect fire then the remotely piloted solution is most likely to be the choice of champs (and autonomy be the choice of chumps!). I'm not saying "never" but just "not right now" - the last technology "leap of faith" we took was for "sensor fusion" on Typhoon and ask the chaps who fly it just how well that has gone!
Maybe when Windows 57 is released?
The B Word
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The North-South Divide
Afternoon, all, and huge respect to those of you still doing the job, wherever you are, from a long-ago entry in the Retired List.
This might go some way to assist Beagle in yesterday's quest for the border..... /www.sasi.group.shef.ac.uk/maps/nsdivide/index.html.
The research must be correct as it was conducted in Yorkshire and was reported on the BBC news a year or so ago. Mind you, I had always thought that "The South" must have started somewhere nearer to Crewe than to Gloucester. Goes to show how one's preconceptions can be put right by a good piece of academic research, I suppose....
This might go some way to assist Beagle in yesterday's quest for the border..... /www.sasi.group.shef.ac.uk/maps/nsdivide/index.html.
The research must be correct as it was conducted in Yorkshire and was reported on the BBC news a year or so ago. Mind you, I had always thought that "The South" must have started somewhere nearer to Crewe than to Gloucester. Goes to show how one's preconceptions can be put right by a good piece of academic research, I suppose....
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As a "Northern Monkey" who has lived on the south coast since 1974, I have no problems being called one as it is al part of the general banter that goes on. I do take offence when the "F" is used through; it now become not banter but hostile and I treat it in the same way I would a racist insult.
Is the whole idea of Mantis not to give us a totally independant information/operational system where we don't have to let someone look over our shoulder?
Is the whole idea of Mantis not to give us a totally independant information/operational system where we don't have to let someone look over our shoulder?
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Anything north of Watford Gap was "Cloth Hat and Clogs Country" back in the early 70's. Anyone remember the sorties to the London clubs, cruise in, pick off a bird in the circle, dance, etc. etc. etc. then finally, when a relatively quiet moment came, ask what she wanted to drink, only to watch her turn away, usually with an under the breath "F-----g Northerner". The joys of being a lowly ocifer!
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To Quote the Engineer amongst us....
" you only need satellite uplink bandwidth for the bits of the mission where you want to watch something or blow something up"
...a far enough call, but do the enemy know when to give you notification so that you can get the bandwidth from whoever else owns or shares it??
.....and as for the multiple aircraft managed by one operator in a 'monitoring' situation, will you only be able to engage with one asset at a time? - again, will the enemy stagger their attacks for you to do this important CAS task with your 'Swarm' of autonomous air vehicles monitored by one operator...
...or (ATC) - 'Mantis -1 Turn left to Avoid ROZ newcommer'.
Mantis - 1 (no Response) - I have been programmed 7 hour ago - and I need a full altitude block covering the whole AOR to do my mission...
.....autonomy has its place - and a dynamic war is not it!!
" you only need satellite uplink bandwidth for the bits of the mission where you want to watch something or blow something up"
...a far enough call, but do the enemy know when to give you notification so that you can get the bandwidth from whoever else owns or shares it??
.....and as for the multiple aircraft managed by one operator in a 'monitoring' situation, will you only be able to engage with one asset at a time? - again, will the enemy stagger their attacks for you to do this important CAS task with your 'Swarm' of autonomous air vehicles monitored by one operator...
...or (ATC) - 'Mantis -1 Turn left to Avoid ROZ newcommer'.
Mantis - 1 (no Response) - I have been programmed 7 hour ago - and I need a full altitude block covering the whole AOR to do my mission...
.....autonomy has its place - and a dynamic war is not it!!
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To Quote the Engineer amongst us....
" you only need satellite uplink bandwidth for the bits of the mission where you want to watch something or blow something up"
...a far enough call, but do the enemy know when to give you notification so that you can get the bandwidth from whoever else owns or shares it??
" you only need satellite uplink bandwidth for the bits of the mission where you want to watch something or blow something up"
...a far enough call, but do the enemy know when to give you notification so that you can get the bandwidth from whoever else owns or shares it??
If your planes are autonomous then it's ok to risk losing bandwidth for a little while when some other very high-priority task needs it. If they need to be flown continuously then you can't ever risk over-allocation. It's like airlines that overbook their flights - well worthwhile as long as the consequences of the occasional conflict are not too bad.
If you try to do too many things at the same time then you are stuffed, of course. But life is not really like that. These uavs probably have to fly for some time to be in the target area and then stay on station until people on the ground are ready to use them or until their targets appear. You probably need a stream of uavs, some on station, some leaving to be refuelled/rearmed and some on their way. So the planes that are coming and going would be using bandwidth if they weren't autonomous.
...or (ATC) - 'Mantis -1 Turn left to Avoid ROZ newcommer'.
Mantis - 1 (no Response) - I have been programmed 7 hour ago - and I need a full altitude block covering the whole AOR to do my mission...
Mantis - 1 (no Response) - I have been programmed 7 hour ago - and I need a full altitude block covering the whole AOR to do my mission...
.....autonomy has its place - and a dynamic war is not it!!
:-)
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Mantis vs Reaper
Not that I am any kind of BAE Systems fan, but something Mantis has over the competition is that it has been designed and built to meet the airworthiness standards demanded by the CAA to consider the aircraft being flown in UK airspace outside military danger areas (I acknowledge the very tragic situation regarding Nimrod, BAE Systems' role and the airworthiness arguments - this is covered elsewhere and I will not add further comment here).
I was in a position to visit Warton and after looking at the mock-up Mantis air vehicle, saw the tail / vertical stabiliser of the demonstrator aircraft (along with some other items) prior to delivery of the main fuselage. The construction method and configuration would have been instantly familiar to any RAF aircraft engineering tradesman. The GRP construction methods utilised on most other UAVs are more akin to those used in the kit car / custom sports car industry and do not conform to the CAA airworthiness regs. I'm no expert in this domain but I can see what BAE have been trying to do here - if not only to create a competitor for the Reaper that has the potential to be operated in UK airspace - unlike the GA product.
However, I'm completely unconvinced by the rush to try to create an autonomous UAS - even with a man in the loop for weapons release authority. The sense and avoid capabilities being proposed are nowhere close to being safe for manned assets to operate in proximity to the UAS, and this is where the Reaper wins hands down with its crew composition and fully man in the loop operation. The Reaper crews are delivering outstanding support to the ground forces in Theatre right now, and have been for 2 years. Mantis has a long way to go.
I was in a position to visit Warton and after looking at the mock-up Mantis air vehicle, saw the tail / vertical stabiliser of the demonstrator aircraft (along with some other items) prior to delivery of the main fuselage. The construction method and configuration would have been instantly familiar to any RAF aircraft engineering tradesman. The GRP construction methods utilised on most other UAVs are more akin to those used in the kit car / custom sports car industry and do not conform to the CAA airworthiness regs. I'm no expert in this domain but I can see what BAE have been trying to do here - if not only to create a competitor for the Reaper that has the potential to be operated in UK airspace - unlike the GA product.
However, I'm completely unconvinced by the rush to try to create an autonomous UAS - even with a man in the loop for weapons release authority. The sense and avoid capabilities being proposed are nowhere close to being safe for manned assets to operate in proximity to the UAS, and this is where the Reaper wins hands down with its crew composition and fully man in the loop operation. The Reaper crews are delivering outstanding support to the ground forces in Theatre right now, and have been for 2 years. Mantis has a long way to go.
it has been designed and built to meet the airworthiness standards demanded by the CAA to consider the aircraft being flown in UK airspace outside military danger areas
if not only to create a competitor for the Reaper that has the potential to be operated in UK airspace - unlike the GA product
Take a look at NASA - Ikhana
This NASA Predator B (along with the USAF Reapers) fly in Class A, B, C, D and E airspace (they have no Class F) under ATS control on a daily basis. They do not fly in the "zoo" known as Class G, but hey, who would want to? Don't forget that in the UK at transponder is mandated above FL100 (10,000ft approx), Mode S will also be mandated lower by Mar 12 and that there are Transponder Madatory Zones (TMZ) in Class G begining to spring up. Basically, the transponder is the key to keeping the manned and unmanned aircraft apart.
Also take a look at http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/border_se...predator_b.xml
You will see that the US also use Predator B for their Customs and Border Patrol. Once again, no requirement for "military danger areas" and they fly with civil air traffic in unsegregated airspace. So I deduce that BAeS's argument is at best "thin".
Also the Italian Air Force fly Predator A in EUROCONTROL airspace - they did this for the recent G8/G20 summit at L'Aquila (look it up on Google). They are also bound under EASA airworthiness regulations in the same way that the UK is.
Finally, when it comes to airworthiness, consider this. There are aircraft flying over populated areas of the UK that meet following definition:
- Maximum take-off weight not to exceed 910Kg (2006lbs) but may be up to 1136Kg (2500lbs) with the agreement of the Civil Aviation Authority.
- The installed power not to exceed 134KW (180BHP) but may be 194KW (260BHP) with the agreement of the Civil Aviation Authority.
- Power-off stall speed in landing configuration not over 60 mph but may be up to 70 mph with the agreement of the Civil Aviation Authority
- Maximum design speed not exceeding 250mph.
- Amateur built (including from kits providing the assembly work content is at least 51% hours).
These are amaeur built, enthusiast inspected and flown by private (ie. non-professional) pliots - if the CAA can approve these then why not some of the other UAVs? I believe that GA's products fly under the "experimental" category under Federal Aviation Authority (FAA) rules until they achieve full certification (I reiterate that I do not know this for a fact). The "experimental" category has seen most of Mr Burt Rutan's greatest designs fly - he is the designer and chief engineer for SpaceShip One.
Finally, I do note that there are claims that HERTi is the first aircraft to be certified by the UK CAA to fly in UK airspace - it's kinda odd that they keep going to Woomera in Australia to fly it then!
An interesting debate though.
The B Word
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By the look of it, and the build description by the poster who's seen it, the talfin seems not to have stealth as a priority; there was a saying that Wart On products featured ever larger fins, Tornado anyone ?
I suppose they'll nail on some RAM and say it has the RCS of a young insect.
The B Word,
If they've been watching Star Trek, is it the operator or designer who gets assigned the red shirt ( and pointy hat I suggest ).
In my time with BAe, I started off with no feelings one way or the other re. ' Northeners ', but after years of rude, arrogant and ignorant behaviour, either by deed, on the 'phone, or when visiting Northern BAe bases, I happily support anyone describing ' Whippet Botherers '...
As for ' no culture down south '?!
Take your pick as to what sort of culture, but in this context Farnborough, Brooklands and Boscombe Down spring to mind.
The only culture the clog-hoppers have is the stuff growing in their disgusting thin fizzy beer.
My father is from Aberdeen & mother from Wales, while I was born & live in the south; it's northern England which is the snag, the Scots are great to work with.
So, I won't be betting on anything good from this latest ' bugger off ' twin...probably be useful to include a dustpan & brush with a pre-paid return envelope.
I suppose they'll nail on some RAM and say it has the RCS of a young insect.
The B Word,
If they've been watching Star Trek, is it the operator or designer who gets assigned the red shirt ( and pointy hat I suggest ).
In my time with BAe, I started off with no feelings one way or the other re. ' Northeners ', but after years of rude, arrogant and ignorant behaviour, either by deed, on the 'phone, or when visiting Northern BAe bases, I happily support anyone describing ' Whippet Botherers '...
As for ' no culture down south '?!
Take your pick as to what sort of culture, but in this context Farnborough, Brooklands and Boscombe Down spring to mind.
The only culture the clog-hoppers have is the stuff growing in their disgusting thin fizzy beer.
My father is from Aberdeen & mother from Wales, while I was born & live in the south; it's northern England which is the snag, the Scots are great to work with.
So, I won't be betting on anything good from this latest ' bugger off ' twin...probably be useful to include a dustpan & brush with a pre-paid return envelope.
Double Zero
Top post, me old china plate (anyone for cockles, jellied eels and some Chas and Dave?).
Spotter Alert On...
The Red shirts went to security, radio ops and engs - so I guess that's the RAF Police, Regt and engineers sorted?
The Yellow shirts were for the operators and commanders - aircrew and controllers?
The Blue shirts went to the scientists - medics?
Spotter Alert Off...
The B Word
PS. I just had a thought. If Mantis is designed for UK certification then why go all the way to Woomera as well? There are plenty of sparsely populated areas in the UK and also oversea to do flight trials???
Top post, me old china plate (anyone for cockles, jellied eels and some Chas and Dave?).
Spotter Alert On...
The Red shirts went to security, radio ops and engs - so I guess that's the RAF Police, Regt and engineers sorted?
The Yellow shirts were for the operators and commanders - aircrew and controllers?
The Blue shirts went to the scientists - medics?
Spotter Alert Off...
The B Word
PS. I just had a thought. If Mantis is designed for UK certification then why go all the way to Woomera as well? There are plenty of sparsely populated areas in the UK and also oversea to do flight trials???