BAE Mantis drone doing flight tests in Australia
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(in ref to LJRs post)
two different concepts:
One is a remotely operated drone
One is an autonomous system
The difference between these concepts is vast. Reaper is a very capable drone (with some level of autonomous capability), while mantis is a autonomous system demonstrator. Two very different platforms used is very different ways. The UK has had drones since the 80s - thats not a difficult concept to develop. All the hype now is about ASs. Its like comparing bananas and butter.
(sorry)
two different concepts:
One is a remotely operated drone
One is an autonomous system
The difference between these concepts is vast. Reaper is a very capable drone (with some level of autonomous capability), while mantis is a autonomous system demonstrator. Two very different platforms used is very different ways. The UK has had drones since the 80s - thats not a difficult concept to develop. All the hype now is about ASs. Its like comparing bananas and butter.
(sorry)
I would be VERY worried about anything 't Bungling Baron's had a hand in having ANY degree of autonomy!
"Seth - wherr's 't bloody drone at?"
"Don't know, masterr. 't thing's booggerred off tha' knows...."
"Well, ah'll go to 't foot o'owerr sterrs...."
A shame they didn't call it 't Whippet' or 't Pigeon'......
"Seth - wherr's 't bloody drone at?"
"Don't know, masterr. 't thing's booggerred off tha' knows...."
"Well, ah'll go to 't foot o'owerr sterrs...."
A shame they didn't call it 't Whippet' or 't Pigeon'......
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As you can imagine us Northerners rise above those comments, especially from Southern ex "Seat - Stick Interfaces" . Don't forget whatever happens you'll always need Engineers.
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Originally Posted by free_hat
The UK has had drones since the 80s
(Though I must admit QinetiQ's latest unmanned vehicle - the Dragon Runner - has put the fear of God into me. Apparently it's "...all-seeing, all-listening..." You mean it knows what I did with that intern at the Christmas bash a couple of years ago? And it knows about me fiddling my OSA?)
I/C
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BEagle
Would you mock accents the same way if the MANTIS was built by HAL of India, or if a West Indian company was the target of your comments?
C130JTechie
As a fellow Northerner, in fact Lancastrian, I normally would rise above it but I find BEagle's comments a tad offensive. I was born, schooled & currently live across the Ribble from Warton & a lot of my friends work at the site. No-one I know speaks that way & I find his comments offensive.
If I was in a bar somewhere in the South of England & some stranger came up to me making fun of the way I spoke I would say the same. I don't see a difference between a public bar & a public forum. An inappropriate remark is an inappropriate remark.
Would you mock accents the same way if the MANTIS was built by HAL of India, or if a West Indian company was the target of your comments?
C130JTechie
As a fellow Northerner, in fact Lancastrian, I normally would rise above it but I find BEagle's comments a tad offensive. I was born, schooled & currently live across the Ribble from Warton & a lot of my friends work at the site. No-one I know speaks that way & I find his comments offensive.
If I was in a bar somewhere in the South of England & some stranger came up to me making fun of the way I spoke I would say the same. I don't see a difference between a public bar & a public forum. An inappropriate remark is an inappropriate remark.
Well, for all FNMs with a sense of humour, I give you the following great Python sketch:
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: Aye, very passable, that, very passable bit of risotto.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN: Nothing like a good glass of Chāteau de Chasselas, eh, Josiah?
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN: You're right there, Obadiah.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN: Who'd have thought thirty year ago we'd all be sittin' here drinking Chāteau de Chasselas, eh?
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: In them days we was glad to have the price of a cup o' tea.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN: A cup o' cold tea.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN: Without milk or sugar.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN: Or tea.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: In a cracked cup, an' all.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN: Oh, we never had a cup. We used to have to drink out of a rolled up newspaper.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN: The best we could manage was to suck on a piece of damp cloth.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN: But you know, we were happy in those days, though we were poor.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: Because we were poor. My old Dad used to say to me, "Money doesn't buy you happiness, son".
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN: Aye, 'e was right.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: Aye, 'e was.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN: I was happier then and I had nothin'. We used to live in this tiny old house with great big holes in the roof.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN: House! You were lucky to live in a house! We used to live in one room, all twenty-six of us, no furniture, 'alf the floor was missing, and we were all 'uddled together in one corner for fear of falling.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN: Eh, you were lucky to have a room! We used to have to live in t' corridor!
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: Oh, we used to dream of livin' in a corridor! Would ha' been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woke up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House? Huh.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN: Well, when I say 'house' it was only a hole in the ground covered by a sheet of tarpaulin, but it was a house to us.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN: We were evicted from our 'ole in the ground; we 'ad to go and live in a lake.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN: You were lucky to have a lake! There were a hundred and fifty of us living in t' shoebox in t' middle o' road.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: Cardboard box?
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN: Aye.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN: Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN: Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years, and when we got home our Dad would slice us in two wit' bread knife.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN: Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.
ALL: They won't!
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN: Nothing like a good glass of Chāteau de Chasselas, eh, Josiah?
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN: You're right there, Obadiah.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN: Who'd have thought thirty year ago we'd all be sittin' here drinking Chāteau de Chasselas, eh?
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: In them days we was glad to have the price of a cup o' tea.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN: A cup o' cold tea.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN: Without milk or sugar.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN: Or tea.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: In a cracked cup, an' all.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN: Oh, we never had a cup. We used to have to drink out of a rolled up newspaper.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN: The best we could manage was to suck on a piece of damp cloth.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN: But you know, we were happy in those days, though we were poor.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: Because we were poor. My old Dad used to say to me, "Money doesn't buy you happiness, son".
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN: Aye, 'e was right.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: Aye, 'e was.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN: I was happier then and I had nothin'. We used to live in this tiny old house with great big holes in the roof.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN: House! You were lucky to live in a house! We used to live in one room, all twenty-six of us, no furniture, 'alf the floor was missing, and we were all 'uddled together in one corner for fear of falling.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN: Eh, you were lucky to have a room! We used to have to live in t' corridor!
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: Oh, we used to dream of livin' in a corridor! Would ha' been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woke up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House? Huh.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN: Well, when I say 'house' it was only a hole in the ground covered by a sheet of tarpaulin, but it was a house to us.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN: We were evicted from our 'ole in the ground; we 'ad to go and live in a lake.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN: You were lucky to have a lake! There were a hundred and fifty of us living in t' shoebox in t' middle o' road.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: Cardboard box?
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN: Aye.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN: Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN: Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years, and when we got home our Dad would slice us in two wit' bread knife.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN: Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.
ALL: They won't!
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Who's the fool, the 'Northern Mankey' making & selling the planes, or the Southern Tw@ with no culture buying them?
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..... back on topic....
Hmm... drones since the 80s? You mean the lawnmower engined AET (Airborne Entrenching Tool)? Really? I still think that they should have planted a rose bush whenever one crashed (err... "landed robustly"). Salisbury would be a lot prettier....
S41
Hmm... drones since the 80s? You mean the lawnmower engined AET (Airborne Entrenching Tool)? Really? I still think that they should have planted a rose bush whenever one crashed (err... "landed robustly"). Salisbury would be a lot prettier....
S41
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Sorry, off topic
BEagle
Excellent knowledge of the UK....not, and Monty Python but unfortunately wrong County, ne'r mind, I'm sure you will get an Atlas or Road map for Xmas.
BEagle
Excellent knowledge of the UK....not, and Monty Python but unfortunately wrong County, ne'r mind, I'm sure you will get an Atlas or Road map for Xmas.
Yes, I've heard that FNMs have this thing about 't Pennines.....
Which begs the question, where is the border between 't North and the 'Soft South'? Of course you just need to look in a butcher's shop - if udders, tails and testicles are on sale, tha' must be in 't North....
Personally I reckon that the border is at 53 deg N - roughly Boston to Whitchurch on the Welsh border.
Anway, 'tis but banterrr, tha' knows.
The UK had drones years long before the 1980s. Although the first 'BAC Drone' was actually a manned aircraft.... It was so slow that it was possible to mount a 'punt gun' in one, formate on a flock of ducks, then blow them out of the sky. A bit of a cheat really.....
In the 1950s the Firefly and Meteor both served as drones, much as the Queen Bee had earlier, although the Jindivik was a rather more cost-effective alternative. After retirement from the FAA, a few 'Vixens were also operated as drones - including the last airworthy example which can be seen at many UK airshows.
Which begs the question, where is the border between 't North and the 'Soft South'? Of course you just need to look in a butcher's shop - if udders, tails and testicles are on sale, tha' must be in 't North....
Personally I reckon that the border is at 53 deg N - roughly Boston to Whitchurch on the Welsh border.
Anway, 'tis but banterrr, tha' knows.
The UK had drones years long before the 1980s. Although the first 'BAC Drone' was actually a manned aircraft.... It was so slow that it was possible to mount a 'punt gun' in one, formate on a flock of ducks, then blow them out of the sky. A bit of a cheat really.....
In the 1950s the Firefly and Meteor both served as drones, much as the Queen Bee had earlier, although the Jindivik was a rather more cost-effective alternative. After retirement from the FAA, a few 'Vixens were also operated as drones - including the last airworthy example which can be seen at many UK airshows.
There were attempts to turn an aircraft into a guided missile during W.W.1.
Wikipedia says the project was dropped after the war due to the "shortsightedness of military planners". There's a surprise.
Wikipedia says the project was dropped after the war due to the "shortsightedness of military planners". There's a surprise.
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Quote Free Hat :
One is a remotely operated drone
One is an autonomous system
...absolutely 100%
....However, Autonomy CANNOT do CAS.....
...so to compare them is like comparing an F/A-18F to an Islander
One is a remotely operated drone
One is an autonomous system
...absolutely 100%
....However, Autonomy CANNOT do CAS.....
...so to compare them is like comparing an F/A-18F to an Islander
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interesting - which pigeon hole would you put the aussies who are heavily involved in BAE UAV stuff?
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Interesting thing Mantis.
If it is autonomous in that it can get airborne and fly to a designated area carrying weaponry, by itself, is there a possibility that troops in contact on the ground can have an uplink to Mantis, look through its optics onto the scenario below and mark out a target and select the weapon of choice from a drop down menu on a PDA ? Saves relaying info back to controllers in the case of Reaper and all the comms gucciness that implies or the ability to fly the thing on the part of an operator.
"One hellfire here and another there....press accept and bang !"
...mind you, so long as said troops dont get the blue screen of death at a critical moment...
If it is autonomous in that it can get airborne and fly to a designated area carrying weaponry, by itself, is there a possibility that troops in contact on the ground can have an uplink to Mantis, look through its optics onto the scenario below and mark out a target and select the weapon of choice from a drop down menu on a PDA ? Saves relaying info back to controllers in the case of Reaper and all the comms gucciness that implies or the ability to fly the thing on the part of an operator.
"One hellfire here and another there....press accept and bang !"
...mind you, so long as said troops dont get the blue screen of death at a critical moment...
BEags...
"Personally I reckon that the border is at 53 deg N - roughly Boston to Whitchurch on the Welsh border."
So... no differentiation between the Viet-Taff and the Valley Commando's there then!
"Personally I reckon that the border is at 53 deg N - roughly Boston to Whitchurch on the Welsh border."
So... no differentiation between the Viet-Taff and the Valley Commando's there then!
Hmmm!
I suspect that there is not so much success as t'bunglin Baron claims...
I can't believe that the company are pushing pictures of the aircraft "wheels down" if they have flown the aircraft cleaned up. I have read:
This indicates that "Spiral 1" objectives are over - these can't have been "stretch" objectives as it certainly doesn't include raising the landing gear! I'd sooner have retractable gear than mission autonomy; how about that for misaligned objectives?! Take a look at UK's Largest Fully-Autonomous Unmanned Aircraft Completes Initial Flight Trials - BAE Systems
What about the 2x MX-20HD turrets, 4x PXIV and 6x DM Brimstone with Beyond Line-Of-Sight (BLOS) capability that was promised in Farnborough 2008? I doubt that we could wait for all the trials to be completed and then production/manufacture that would probably take at least 5 years - our guys on the ground need armed overwatch now and not 5 years away (probably 10 when BWOS is involved).
IMHO, "Your choice, UK Gov, more UK body bags or save UK jobs waiting for this!"? I do like the quote about "praying" for the delivery of Mantis on time; sadly, I'm afaid, you are probably not far from the truth. It is good to see a large British UAV fly, but Mantis is probably 10yrs too late. We need the "next generation" of UAVs, not a "souped up" 2 engined British Reaper that will deliver (?) in the latter half of the next decade when a far smaller aerospace manufacturer is offering this now:
Which makes this Mantis look a little second rate...
BTW, no mention of the first-flight being delayed over 8 months anywhere in the press/media articles!
Finally, to quote Lock Stock, "I f@©king hate N0rvern M0nkėys"!
The B Word
I suspect that there is not so much success as t'bunglin Baron claims...
I can't believe that the company are pushing pictures of the aircraft "wheels down" if they have flown the aircraft cleaned up. I have read:
Defence Equipment & Support Director Combat Air, Air Vice-Marshal Simon Bollom, said: "These trials at the end of this technology demonstration programme have successfully demonstrated a number of key factors that have helped build confidence in the feasibility of a UK-derived medium altitude long endurance unmanned aerial system".
This indicates that "Spiral 1" objectives are over - these can't have been "stretch" objectives as it certainly doesn't include raising the landing gear! I'd sooner have retractable gear than mission autonomy; how about that for misaligned objectives?! Take a look at UK's Largest Fully-Autonomous Unmanned Aircraft Completes Initial Flight Trials - BAE Systems
What about the 2x MX-20HD turrets, 4x PXIV and 6x DM Brimstone with Beyond Line-Of-Sight (BLOS) capability that was promised in Farnborough 2008? I doubt that we could wait for all the trials to be completed and then production/manufacture that would probably take at least 5 years - our guys on the ground need armed overwatch now and not 5 years away (probably 10 when BWOS is involved).
IMHO, "Your choice, UK Gov, more UK body bags or save UK jobs waiting for this!"? I do like the quote about "praying" for the delivery of Mantis on time; sadly, I'm afaid, you are probably not far from the truth. It is good to see a large British UAV fly, but Mantis is probably 10yrs too late. We need the "next generation" of UAVs, not a "souped up" 2 engined British Reaper that will deliver (?) in the latter half of the next decade when a far smaller aerospace manufacturer is offering this now:
Which makes this Mantis look a little second rate...
BTW, no mention of the first-flight being delayed over 8 months anywhere in the press/media articles!
Finally, to quote Lock Stock, "I f@©king hate N0rvern M0nkėys"!
The B Word
PS. An interesting Media point of view here (on the money IMHO):
Mantis Reaper-clone drone flies [printer-friendly] ? The Register
Here is the "meat":
Earlier in the thread I quote:
How about the tail on these bevvy of beauties?
Mantis Reaper-clone drone flies [printer-friendly] ? The Register
Here is the "meat":
Both technologies are already available in other machines, however. The latest Predators, produced for the US Army and so unaffected by the US air force's insistence on using fully-qualified human pilots as much as possible, are operated by comparatively cheap tech specialists (US killer robo-plane makes strike without remote pilot ? The Register) just as Mantis would be. Onboard processing of data-heavy sensor output is already routine in much more basic aircraft (Maveric UAS | products). And far from being at the cutting edge of drone tech, Mantis is already being eclipsed by such recent offerings as the Avenger (General Atomics unwraps new, Stealth(y) robot war-jet ? The Register).
There can be little doubt that if the British forces purchase Mantis, they will pay more for a given level of capability than they would if they continued to buy Predators or other foreign-made products.
Should Labour be re-elected next year it would seem very likely that the RAF will be ordered to buy Mantis nonetheless, as Lord Drayson - one of the British arms industry's staunchest friends in government - has lately returned to the MoD (Drayson back at MoD, retains biznovation portfolio ? The Register) with an anomalous portfolio which makes him effectively equal in rank to the Secretary of State for Defence.
However a decision on whether or not to discard Reaper and switch to Mantis appears unlikely before the UK's strategic defence review next year, which all parties have agreed should follow the election.
Rival drone makers have hinted (BAE's Mantis drone may be downed by MoD | Mail Online) that the UK MoD - known to be strapped for cash - can't realistically afford to pay British industry to reinvent other people's wheels yet again.
Air Vice-Marshal Simon Bollom, speaking for the MoD, remained non-committal today.
There can be little doubt that if the British forces purchase Mantis, they will pay more for a given level of capability than they would if they continued to buy Predators or other foreign-made products.
Should Labour be re-elected next year it would seem very likely that the RAF will be ordered to buy Mantis nonetheless, as Lord Drayson - one of the British arms industry's staunchest friends in government - has lately returned to the MoD (Drayson back at MoD, retains biznovation portfolio ? The Register) with an anomalous portfolio which makes him effectively equal in rank to the Secretary of State for Defence.
However a decision on whether or not to discard Reaper and switch to Mantis appears unlikely before the UK's strategic defence review next year, which all parties have agreed should follow the election.
Rival drone makers have hinted (BAE's Mantis drone may be downed by MoD | Mail Online) that the UK MoD - known to be strapped for cash - can't realistically afford to pay British industry to reinvent other people's wheels yet again.
Air Vice-Marshal Simon Bollom, speaking for the MoD, remained non-committal today.
.... and they have raided the parts bin. I'm sure that tail looks like it has come off something else.
Last edited by The B Word; 19th Nov 2009 at 00:59.