Any barrack room lawyers out there?
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Any barrack room lawyers out there?
Can anyone out there tell me if it is reasonable or legal for a large group of (innocent) people to be punished for the actions of a very small group of people?. .. .If it is not reasonable or legal, what actions could or should be taken?. .. .Thanks for any advice, SM.
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What you're looking at is the public school ethos where the group is prepared to take responsibiliy and punishment for the ill-considered actions of a few of its members.. .. .Or - Hiroshima.. .. .Or - Dresden.. .. .Or - Coventry, the list goes on.... .I think you will have to be rather more specific.
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The obvious answers are no, and no.. .. .However, as other pruners have pointed out, it depends on the context to a certain extent. One could argue the point about Afghanistan, or whether a flight at Cranditz should all be put on restrictions 'cos someone didn't iron their carpet or something.. .. .In modern British law, I can't ever think of something of the context you are talking about getting to court, because of the CPS/procurator fiscal filter. I can't help thinking there is going to be a rant on the way from the poster once several of us have provided our thoughts!
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Well say one guy was to annoy a RAF copper at a particular RAF location, then the next day he and his pals fly home (there's a clue) but on same day the whole of the rest of the aircraft detatchment (100 innocents) is banned from the bar and confined to camp! Enough clues. Answers on a postcard to.... . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 16:21: Message edited by: switch monkey ]</small>
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Once upon a time a certain Squadron was on an APC. .in Deci.Some people took it on themselves to moon a wedding - in a car with AFI plates.. .The entire DET. was confined to base - airmen only of course-officers wouldnt do anything that childish!. .After a meeting of all of us enlisted folk, it was decided that the only course of action was to . .complete all turnarounds by the book.. .Sortie rate went through the floor, boss had a major sense of homour failure - restrictions lifted.
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Ah, you mean military 'discipline'. .. .If you look at my profile, you'll see that I talk from a position of a little cred on this subject - also having served in HMRAF.. .. .What happens in the real world is a little different of course - the'civvy' copper would have followed through his or her issue with the miscreant involved. What appears to have happened here is that he/she has probably lost an argument or had insufficient evidence resulting in a rather inflated report made to a C.O. who has acted as he saw fit! . .. .I didn't serve within the Provost so I don't know precisely what training they are given, but they were very much my first impression of the RAF. In my day, you turned up at Cranwell and had to pop into the guardroom to show your driving documents. Bearing in mind that I wasn't even attested at this point - the ensuing rant from the said corporal because I produced a cover note rather than a full insurance certificate rather knocked me for six.. .. .Modern policing has been moulded by what is known as KUSAB - knowledge, understanding, skills, attitudes and behaviour. If you have a cross section of this in an officer he or she will be self contained enough to deal with most things. . .. .Ultimately, these things will continue to happen as they are the way of the RAF world. Until some great enlightenment takes place do not expect change.
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SM. .. .I think that the camp you're alluding to, the bar facility and going off camp is a privilage and not an entitlement. Having been at the wrong end of a campwide shutting of the bar for 2 days because everyone had the audacity to enjoy themselves on Xmas Eve, what you have reported does not surprise me (though does sound OTT).
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Yes SM, there are lots of Barrack Room Lawyers on Pprune, just read the 'F15 Court Martial' and 'Chinook - Still Hitting Back' threads. These type of threads are usually emotionally driven through personal opinions with little or no actual direct knowledge of the facts.. .. .As for your problem, suggest you speak with the CO about the incident. He may give a valid reason, then again, he may not. Also suggest that the blame lies with the idiots who spoiled it for everyone else, not the sad copper or the CO.. .. .If I was in any sort of legal profession, I'd perhaps chance my arm at an opinion on the legality of the incident, but I'm not, so I won't. Some could learn from this...
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The 'punishment' may be illegal under European law - everyone has a right to a fair trial etc. But what would your fight achieve? You may get back into the bar but probably not a good reputation.. .. .We're here to uphold democracy - not run one. Get over it!
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the last three posts have concerned me somewhat. . .. .ralf. .. .ever thought that the people offering help actually do have legal backgrounds?. .. .chinook and diff. .. .pretty poor attitude. whilst the circumstances may appear petty, the injustice of the matter is the main reason many people pursue legal remedy, and an important reason why people get fed up of the forces in general.. .. .i personally dont believe in putting up with a lot of irrelevant *********. the more people just accept it the longer it will continue, the longer it continues the more people will get fed up of the pettyness and leave. we dont have the numbers to force people out. these are professional military organisations, it is not unreasonable to expect to be treated as such. . .. .switch. .redress of complaint is probably the only recourse you and the 100 chaps have, and they all have to be individual - there can be no group actions.. . . . <small>[ 24 March 2002, 12:36: Message edited by: uncle peter ]</small>
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Injustice .... never signed any piece of paper when I enlisted that guaranteed me justice.. .. .Some other parts of military life appear to be unjust also - combat, casualties, accidents, ... whom shall I sue here?. .. .Fact is combat leaders worry about effectiveness, pogues worry about justice. Soldiers and officers learn this in combat, in peacetime we have toteach it another way ... which looks unjust I admit.. .. .But really, is being 'gated' or banned from a bar grounds for egal advice?. .. .Grow up boy and look in the mirror ... .. .It's a military uniform, not a girl guide one
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flatus. .. .Trust me, if those at the sharp end were allowed to do their job, it wouldn't be. As with the services, position up the ladder is inversely proportional to grip on what is actually going on.. .. .Policing is a shambles, but not due to the poor sods at the sharp end. In fact, it is a miracle any gets done at all. . . . <small>[ 24 March 2002, 17:25: Message edited by: STANDTO ]</small>
A collective response is called a mutiny in military terms. Fletcher Christian thought his CO was unjust in his actions and tried a while ago it all went well to begin with but the system won in the end. Grin and bear it for now and do not look for victory today but a different victory in the future.
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And remember, things that go around, come around. The man you currently disagree with may be your CO now, but chances are you will have a position of authority that includes assessing him one day...
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Uncle Peter,. .. . I never realised how many Aircrew have a legal background! Do forgive me, or perhaps should we request that the site change it's name to Professional Legal Educated Barristers Site (PLEBS).. .. . If you happen to be a snowdrop Peter, that doesn't count as a legal background <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
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You know there's no point arguing with group-four-security dibble! If you do, he has to sit down and write a long lengthy report about it.. at the end of which you've forgotten what you did!! anyway, where you are, if you so much as breathe in a no-breathing zone and caught by the rozzers (painful!) you are banned from the bar for two weeks! Unless, of course, you are wearing Madam ATCO's High heels..
**** HAPPENS!! Notch this one up to experience (until you get home)
**** HAPPENS!! Notch this one up to experience (until you get home)
Last edited by Mach_Tuck; 1st Apr 2002 at 19:44.
