FJ or Fighter Pilots HARD QUESTIONS
No mate - nothing at all against F3 dudes! Just huge sympathy for flying the least manoeuvrable 'fighter' in the world. Bureaufighter will be vastly better, but now that the F3 is at a state which it should have been when it entered service, in a Link 16 (particulalry BVR) environment, the usual synergy of RAF training and tactics - even hampered by the flight envelope of the aeroplane - means that as a weapons system, F3 is pretty good. When it's serviceable of course!
Re. my F4 to VC10 - I don't hide the fact that, despite having been operational on the jet for 18 months, I didn't make the required 'rate of progress' that was expected. Hence I was re-streamed; incidentally, I disliked the lifestyle prevailing at the time with a vengeance. For example, despite having lived-out for the previous 3 years, they expected me to live in the Mess for the first 6 months! Fortunately I challenged this successfully - the little to$$er who was my Flt Cdr thought that I was mad when I said "Sorry - not prepared to put up with such crap; let me live out or post me back to the grown-up world I just came from!" I thought (privately) that the 'leadership' was poor, counselling non-existent and the alcohol-fuelled rat-packs and cliques highly damaging and divisive. No room for individuals - you had to go with the herd!! There were a few good guys such as the highly professional QWI navigator, the GAF exchange officers were brilliant. But there were too many beer, bull$hit and bravado people around for my liking.......
Re. my F4 to VC10 - I don't hide the fact that, despite having been operational on the jet for 18 months, I didn't make the required 'rate of progress' that was expected. Hence I was re-streamed; incidentally, I disliked the lifestyle prevailing at the time with a vengeance. For example, despite having lived-out for the previous 3 years, they expected me to live in the Mess for the first 6 months! Fortunately I challenged this successfully - the little to$$er who was my Flt Cdr thought that I was mad when I said "Sorry - not prepared to put up with such crap; let me live out or post me back to the grown-up world I just came from!" I thought (privately) that the 'leadership' was poor, counselling non-existent and the alcohol-fuelled rat-packs and cliques highly damaging and divisive. No room for individuals - you had to go with the herd!! There were a few good guys such as the highly professional QWI navigator, the GAF exchange officers were brilliant. But there were too many beer, bull$hit and bravado people around for my liking.......
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The Vulcan stealthy? That's a laugh! The fighter jocks told us it stuck out like - er, you know what!
In this age of AWACs, how important is a powerful AI radar to a fighter? I heard the EF criticised, when the first mock-up was revealed, for having insufficient space for a decent sized scanner (compared to its contemporaries and potential adversaries).
In this age of AWACs, how important is a powerful AI radar to a fighter? I heard the EF criticised, when the first mock-up was revealed, for having insufficient space for a decent sized scanner (compared to its contemporaries and potential adversaries).
By god but the Vulcan was one hell of an aircraft. Sorry but I just had to say that.
My last boss was ex-Vulcan and I now have such admiration for aircraft. Any news of getting the last one flying again?
Off topic I know,
WWW
My last boss was ex-Vulcan and I now have such admiration for aircraft. Any news of getting the last one flying again?
Off topic I know,
WWW
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Beags
Nice one - luckily when I joined the same force, I wuz only 12, hence living in the Mess seemed a good deal! Seems like you stumbled on a duff outfit - with Germs on board - probably in Suffolk. Whilst there were cliques as you mention, as I've discovered in most outfits - good times come and go - just have to 'go with the flow at the mo'. My experience of 'bucking the system' normally ends in tears - eg flying tankers! (Just banter - no offence intended)Had some top service from you boys over the years - esp in some tricky, unmentionable places where tankers have appeared as if by magic just as I was dreaming up my 'running out of gas' excuses!
Soz to drift off thread.
Nice one - luckily when I joined the same force, I wuz only 12, hence living in the Mess seemed a good deal! Seems like you stumbled on a duff outfit - with Germs on board - probably in Suffolk. Whilst there were cliques as you mention, as I've discovered in most outfits - good times come and go - just have to 'go with the flow at the mo'. My experience of 'bucking the system' normally ends in tears - eg flying tankers! (Just banter - no offence intended)Had some top service from you boys over the years - esp in some tricky, unmentionable places where tankers have appeared as if by magic just as I was dreaming up my 'running out of gas' excuses!
Soz to drift off thread.
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Flatus,
Beware assuming that AWACS (or any other AEW&C platform for that matter) is the all seeing god of the air. Whilst it is generally considered an essential asset for any major op, we have limitations. In the BH NFZ, political constraints placed our orbits in areas which meant we were looking across the steep and narrow valley's of the region. It was therefore important for the CAP assets to be able to augment Magic's picture by looking down the valley's with their own sensors. Given the increasing likeleyhood of coming up against a long ranged mobile SAM such as SA-10/12 etc, AWACS(not to mention SIGINT, AAR and all your other high value assets) will be forced to retire to a considerable distance from the threat in the next punch up.
Even given improvements in the E-3 capabilities with RSIP, this will reduce AWACS sensor (and comms) coverage.
Therefore, until HMG invest in decent self protection systems for our multies (ECM, DIRCM, TRD etc) or UAVs become able to act as bistatic sensors/relays for AWACS/SIGINT, it will remain important for tomorrows fast jets to maintain a robust sensor capability.
However, your comment highlights something that has not been touched upon much in this thread. Information superiority is now essential for air superiority.
Regards,
M2
Beware assuming that AWACS (or any other AEW&C platform for that matter) is the all seeing god of the air. Whilst it is generally considered an essential asset for any major op, we have limitations. In the BH NFZ, political constraints placed our orbits in areas which meant we were looking across the steep and narrow valley's of the region. It was therefore important for the CAP assets to be able to augment Magic's picture by looking down the valley's with their own sensors. Given the increasing likeleyhood of coming up against a long ranged mobile SAM such as SA-10/12 etc, AWACS(not to mention SIGINT, AAR and all your other high value assets) will be forced to retire to a considerable distance from the threat in the next punch up.
Even given improvements in the E-3 capabilities with RSIP, this will reduce AWACS sensor (and comms) coverage.
Therefore, until HMG invest in decent self protection systems for our multies (ECM, DIRCM, TRD etc) or UAVs become able to act as bistatic sensors/relays for AWACS/SIGINT, it will remain important for tomorrows fast jets to maintain a robust sensor capability.
However, your comment highlights something that has not been touched upon much in this thread. Information superiority is now essential for air superiority.
Regards,
M2
Which presumably means that it was a good idea to fit JTIDS to certain tankers - so that not only did the crew have decent SA and could expedite RVs with thirsty customers, but could also link the picture from F3 back to E3 and vice versa?
But although it worked very well, the usual bleat came up: "There's no money to support it", so the world first in JTIDS which the RAF briefly had was thrown away..........
But although it worked very well, the usual bleat came up: "There's no money to support it", so the world first in JTIDS which the RAF briefly had was thrown away..........
Our JTIDS went from the first paper being written on 9 May 99 to a successful VC10 test flight on 29 Sep 99; the system became operational in Oct 99. The prime contractor worked all hours of the day and night and we had the luxury of a large screen colour display! That was all achieved under a UOR; if it had been a conventional programme, it would have taken much longer but would have been particularly Gucci!
I once flew a VC10 sortie over the North Sea with both JTIDS and RWR working 100% as they should; the SA was amazing and enabled us to do everything we'd always said we could. We were still seeing the AWACS over Scotland as we flew the approach at Brize.......
So I am absolutely sold on the idea of data links in tankers and other HVAAs, it was a real shame that we received such poor support from the Wyton shiny-ar$es and our Group staffs whilst we had the kit. Let's just hope that a better job is done on FSTA............
I once flew a VC10 sortie over the North Sea with both JTIDS and RWR working 100% as they should; the SA was amazing and enabled us to do everything we'd always said we could. We were still seeing the AWACS over Scotland as we flew the approach at Brize.......
So I am absolutely sold on the idea of data links in tankers and other HVAAs, it was a real shame that we received such poor support from the Wyton shiny-ar$es and our Group staffs whilst we had the kit. Let's just hope that a better job is done on FSTA............
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BEagle,
I am a huge fan of JTIDS on you AAR chaps, however, you may have missed the point a little regarding 'linking the F3 picture back to the AWACS.' I was thinking more of a high SAM threat area where no HVAA can venture. Therefore, if AWACS was unable to go there, then AAR wouldn't either. However, AAR are an excellent platform to use as 'gateways' to, for instance, retransmit JTIDS data as IDM data or vice versa. Basically however, as BEags has discovered, a link picture amazes assets who have not come across that sort of SA before. JTIDS is NOT just an AD link!!!! It is also very amusing to send text messages to fast jet mates describing how the in flt curry is going down! Trouble with JTIDS is that until the knobbers at CAA/FAA are persuaded that multi nets will not cause every airliner to instantly drop out of the sky, there just aren't enough time slots to go around for everyone.
Regards,
M2
I am a huge fan of JTIDS on you AAR chaps, however, you may have missed the point a little regarding 'linking the F3 picture back to the AWACS.' I was thinking more of a high SAM threat area where no HVAA can venture. Therefore, if AWACS was unable to go there, then AAR wouldn't either. However, AAR are an excellent platform to use as 'gateways' to, for instance, retransmit JTIDS data as IDM data or vice versa. Basically however, as BEags has discovered, a link picture amazes assets who have not come across that sort of SA before. JTIDS is NOT just an AD link!!!! It is also very amusing to send text messages to fast jet mates describing how the in flt curry is going down! Trouble with JTIDS is that until the knobbers at CAA/FAA are persuaded that multi nets will not cause every airliner to instantly drop out of the sky, there just aren't enough time slots to go around for everyone.
Regards,
M2
Inded, MM, the biggest problem with JTIDS is definitely the CAA and its restrictions! The system was once described as 'the most significant development since radar'. Shame we can't apparently afford it.......
[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
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As magic said JTIDS amazes anyone who hasn't seen it. Everyone needs it now, but unfortunately that aint gonna happen.
It is very satisfying showing to yanks - they get a bit of a shock when they realise that the F3s have by far the greatest SA of any FJ - hurrah, we have 1 thing better than them! Pity they are buying thousands and will rapidly overtake us.
Just on the "do fighters need decent radars" bit. Err, yes. For lots of reasons.
It is very satisfying showing to yanks - they get a bit of a shock when they realise that the F3s have by far the greatest SA of any FJ - hurrah, we have 1 thing better than them! Pity they are buying thousands and will rapidly overtake us.
Just on the "do fighters need decent radars" bit. Err, yes. For lots of reasons.
