QWI or QFI?
Join Date: Feb 2001
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BEagle, I'm suprised you didn't know about something! First time?? (J!) 
QTI was introduced to Hawk TWU mates about 4 years ago to give them a 'Q' qual to take to civvy street and acknowledge they actually now instruct rather than just assess/criticise; and more importantly act as an incentive to recruit to the sunshine paradise Isle.
It was preposed that QTIs would make a good sqn QFI, able to do annual check rides and things, but not the basic convex flying(sounds good).
56 (F3 OCU) also took on the new shiney badge for the non-QFIs to give it some front-line cred. The rest of the OCUs gaffed it and so it died a slow and painful death and gave no cred at all.
Last year another guy got promoted by changing the decision. This time TWU QTIs were changed to QFIs, for the same reason as above.
Here endeth the lesson. No doubt someone else knows more to the story, if they wish to contribute.......
QTI was introduced to Hawk TWU mates about 4 years ago to give them a 'Q' qual to take to civvy street and acknowledge they actually now instruct rather than just assess/criticise; and more importantly act as an incentive to recruit to the sunshine paradise Isle.
It was preposed that QTIs would make a good sqn QFI, able to do annual check rides and things, but not the basic convex flying(sounds good).
56 (F3 OCU) also took on the new shiney badge for the non-QFIs to give it some front-line cred. The rest of the OCUs gaffed it and so it died a slow and painful death and gave no cred at all.
Last year another guy got promoted by changing the decision. This time TWU QTIs were changed to QFIs, for the same reason as above.
Here endeth the lesson. No doubt someone else knows more to the story, if they wish to contribute.......
Sorry, but this sounds like yet more acceptance of diminished standards. The 'Q'TI sounds to be a fraudulent concept; the idea of re-appointing them as 'Q'FIs without a CFS course is even worse. In the VC10 world we have occasionally had FIs who were not 'Q'FIs thanks to the legacy of the old 'training captain' era. One or two proved their worth, others had neither the knowledge nor instructional ability to each 'how' to do anything - it was a question of "Do an ILS" followed by "This was wrong, that was wrong etc, etc" - no real instruction, just poorly qualified criticism.
Why are we allowing people to bypass an established system of excellence (CFS) in this way? What is it hoping to achieve?
[ 15 July 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
Why are we allowing people to bypass an established system of excellence (CFS) in this way? What is it hoping to achieve?
[ 15 July 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
Join Date: Mar 2001
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CFS is without doubt a very usable qualification outside. QFI plus QHI even more so! Its a bit of a yawn but if you crack A2 or even A1 some contractors in the Middle East pay you loads of dosh. On a more serious note, I really enjoyed my 10 years instructing for HM. Good luck!
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QTIs do a CFS course!
First, a 2 week Ground Instructional Training Course (nice acronym).
Then 4 months of flying with CFS acredited instructors before being let lose on real students. Only then do they learn the art of arrogance, ridicule and intimidation!
First, a 2 week Ground Instructional Training Course (nice acronym).
Then 4 months of flying with CFS acredited instructors before being let lose on real students. Only then do they learn the art of arrogance, ridicule and intimidation!
..............so when do they do the full CFS groundschool then? Or has some 1* ex-bona jet mate decided that his pointy-heads are above such things as well?
This is a decision made for pure expediency and merely serves to erode accepted professional standards.
So in future life, the question will be "Were you a real QFI or just a Hawk FI-of-convenience?"
This is a decision made for pure expediency and merely serves to erode accepted professional standards.
So in future life, the question will be "Were you a real QFI or just a Hawk FI-of-convenience?"
Pilot Officer PPRuNe
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BEagle me old mate.
When I was there (CFS) there was much talk of binning most of the ground school. As I won the Top Hat I would not be sad to see it go, though I did learn a few things. The QTIs did all the instructional stuff, but to be honest the best stuff came once on the flying course.
Tonks
When I was there (CFS) there was much talk of binning most of the ground school. As I won the Top Hat I would not be sad to see it go, though I did learn a few things. The QTIs did all the instructional stuff, but to be honest the best stuff came once on the flying course.
Tonks
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I just hate to see QFIs get upset, especially when it's BEagle. Bless.
The facts:
The Hawk QTIs do the CFS groundschool.
They do A CFS approved course on a CFS-designated sqn that employs at least one CFS agent, who's not very experienced, only about 3000 hrs Hawk, oh, and he started out as a QFI (obviously saw the light).
Let's face it, QFIs teach S&L, turning, IF and some formation. So why are they always so b^&&^y high and mighty about their instructional skills?
I have never understood the (FJ) sqns' desire for QFIs. The students they get are 'winged'. They only need 'type conversion'. What the sqns actually need are QTIs...guys who can teach (as approved by CFS blah blah blah) tactics, not just from the same cockpit but across a formation...yes, that's what they do folks, and without the aid of a safety net.
So you QFI types (I should say brothers since I too got my QFI rubber stamp) chill out, we all think your'e great (especially you BEagle), after all, it's guys like you who got us to where we are now.
I like trimming,
I like trimming,
I like trimming
and I like to trim.....
.........but you're still gits.
Moosa Aswayita
The facts:
The Hawk QTIs do the CFS groundschool.
They do A CFS approved course on a CFS-designated sqn that employs at least one CFS agent, who's not very experienced, only about 3000 hrs Hawk, oh, and he started out as a QFI (obviously saw the light).
Let's face it, QFIs teach S&L, turning, IF and some formation. So why are they always so b^&&^y high and mighty about their instructional skills?
I have never understood the (FJ) sqns' desire for QFIs. The students they get are 'winged'. They only need 'type conversion'. What the sqns actually need are QTIs...guys who can teach (as approved by CFS blah blah blah) tactics, not just from the same cockpit but across a formation...yes, that's what they do folks, and without the aid of a safety net.
So you QFI types (I should say brothers since I too got my QFI rubber stamp) chill out, we all think your'e great (especially you BEagle), after all, it's guys like you who got us to where we are now.
I like trimming,
I like trimming,
I like trimming
and I like to trim.....
.........but you're still gits.
Moosa Aswayita
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Surely it doesn't matter -the system needs both. In the Antipodean air force, the FCI (Fighter Combat Instructor = QWI) has, without doubt, greater prestige and kudos within the organisation. As an FJ trimmer myself, I acknowledge their greater tactical prestige, and their enormous value to the organisation. They will develop the tactics, and lead the first four ship into the war (if we ever have to put aside beating you lot at every sport on the planet and go to a real one!). Meanwhile, I'll still be teaching circuits. So, if you want to be known as the "sharpest knife in the drawer", put in twelve hour days and have the system burn you out by the time you are thirty, then go for QWI. If, however, you don't mind not being at the top of the tactical tree, you want a skill that opens up a much wider variety of posting and post forces jobs, and you don't want to spend six months of the year away, then being a QFI has a lot going for it.
Either way, IMHO, you can't lose. At least you have some options other than flying a desk!
Regards from down under. I'm off to watch a video of Wallabies v Lions again, before the cricket starts!
BTW It's the middle of winter here - CAVOK, 24deg C. Applications being received now from QWI's and QFI's!
SW
Either way, IMHO, you can't lose. At least you have some options other than flying a desk!
Regards from down under. I'm off to watch a video of Wallabies v Lions again, before the cricket starts!
BTW It's the middle of winter here - CAVOK, 24deg C. Applications being received now from QWI's and QFI's!
SW
If you haven't done the basic groundschool, how in h*ck you'll ever do your A2 theory is going to prove interesting!
or is that going down the pan of expediency as well? Harrier mate - oh, you must be have been an A2 at birth!
or is that going down the pan of expediency as well? Harrier mate - oh, you must be have been an A2 at birth!
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If you're staying in the mob, then fast jet QWI has to be more fun than fast jet QFI. If you're leaving to go civvie, take it from me, no one gives a toss what Q you had. At my employer, whether or not you would be pleasant company on a night Tenerife counts for more than most of the CV items.
I filled out my CFS application under duress, in the bosses office (after binning a few), and put 'non volunteer' in red top and bottom, back and front. I think they got the hint, because I didn't go to CFS!
However, I did become a TWU TI (again non volunteer, I just wanted to stay on the front line), but the cunning plan fell apart when I was short toured just before my QWI course started.
A quick look around the TREs (sim and line training captains) at my present company, who are very pro ex RAF, shows not a single QFI or QWI. We havn't got any TPs either, but I would endorse that as an interesting route to follow, and with more cred outside.
To underline the differences between mil and civvie, in the RAF I was only interested in flying. Outside I also genuinely get satisfaction from instructing and examining, and am now a TRE and TRI(E) doing everything from line training new pilots to teaching and examining new instrutors on the A320.
As there is an ever present risk of being misunderstood on PPRuNe, let me be quite clear that I am not getting at QFIs or QWIs, but neither counts for much outside.
Apologies for intruding on the mil forum, but even 12 years after leaving, and with absolutely no regrets, I still find the quality of debate and banter in this forum far exceeds the drivel on the others.
So just remember, you can always tell a harrier pilot, but you can't tell him much.
I filled out my CFS application under duress, in the bosses office (after binning a few), and put 'non volunteer' in red top and bottom, back and front. I think they got the hint, because I didn't go to CFS!
However, I did become a TWU TI (again non volunteer, I just wanted to stay on the front line), but the cunning plan fell apart when I was short toured just before my QWI course started.
A quick look around the TREs (sim and line training captains) at my present company, who are very pro ex RAF, shows not a single QFI or QWI. We havn't got any TPs either, but I would endorse that as an interesting route to follow, and with more cred outside.
To underline the differences between mil and civvie, in the RAF I was only interested in flying. Outside I also genuinely get satisfaction from instructing and examining, and am now a TRE and TRI(E) doing everything from line training new pilots to teaching and examining new instrutors on the A320.
As there is an ever present risk of being misunderstood on PPRuNe, let me be quite clear that I am not getting at QFIs or QWIs, but neither counts for much outside.
Apologies for intruding on the mil forum, but even 12 years after leaving, and with absolutely no regrets, I still find the quality of debate and banter in this forum far exceeds the drivel on the others.
So just remember, you can always tell a harrier pilot, but you can't tell him much.
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If you enjoy the frontline life & wish to stay there, there is only one way to go. If you want to be the chap/ess leading your sqn sausage side rather than the fella who works out the take-off spds and makes the t 'n' toast during the planning, then I reiterate, there is only one way to go. Having done it though, a word of caution, you need to be 100% committed coz its bloody hard work (not just during the cse but for the years after it).
Obviously in Beagle's world there is little need for QWI so I understand his sentiments if not agree with them. On the FJ frontline you will have a real influence on the way your Sqn operates in peacetime as well as during conflict (not PC to call'em wars).
I must admit, I haven't done CFS groundschool, but I understand that you get to use up to 4 colours of pen (including red) and also colour in the eyes of the word "LOOKOUT", sounds exciting.
If happiness is a TAC to ILS, then you belong at Linton or Valley and I hope you enjoy it. I'm sure being a QFI has its rewards, but I am of the opinion that if you are a FJ mate, and you have a choice (and few are that lucky) then sqn QWI is the best job in the world bar none.
If like aussie swingwing fella you live to trim then FJ frontline may not be the best place for you. As for getting the QFI tick so that it helps when you leave, what kind of a philosophy is that? take that to its logical conclusion and ask for a transfer Tristars (no offence meant to Tristar chaps, couldn't do it without you and all that etc etc). No offence meant to anyone as I haven't been able to eat glass and pee napalm for a while.
Obviously in Beagle's world there is little need for QWI so I understand his sentiments if not agree with them. On the FJ frontline you will have a real influence on the way your Sqn operates in peacetime as well as during conflict (not PC to call'em wars).
I must admit, I haven't done CFS groundschool, but I understand that you get to use up to 4 colours of pen (including red) and also colour in the eyes of the word "LOOKOUT", sounds exciting.
If happiness is a TAC to ILS, then you belong at Linton or Valley and I hope you enjoy it. I'm sure being a QFI has its rewards, but I am of the opinion that if you are a FJ mate, and you have a choice (and few are that lucky) then sqn QWI is the best job in the world bar none.
If like aussie swingwing fella you live to trim then FJ frontline may not be the best place for you. As for getting the QFI tick so that it helps when you leave, what kind of a philosophy is that? take that to its logical conclusion and ask for a transfer Tristars (no offence meant to Tristar chaps, couldn't do it without you and all that etc etc). No offence meant to anyone as I haven't been able to eat glass and pee napalm for a while.
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As an FJ QWI (retd) and a PTC QFI (UAS) there's no contest which is the one to be if you're young and want to get job satisfaction in the RAF. As for QTIs, 56 have quite a different idea from the Hawk QTI thing and it is a structured system whereby someone starts as a B2 etc. like the CFS bit. Guys do a proper work-up starting with CFS groundschool and both pilots and navs become QTIs. There is a CFS agent (me at one time) on 56 who runs the thing (not a QFI but a QWI) and awards the ticks. Innsworth regard the A2 QTI as being potentially a squadron training officer but it isn't a cheap replacement for QWIs, nor is it a back door QFI course for the pilots.
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So, for 'quite a bit different', read 'exactly the same'.
Hawk QTIs do CFS groundschool (2, not 4 weeks, since prop theory etc was regarded as irrelevant). They also climb up the chain of B2, B1 and A2 etc.
And for BEagle's benefit, the A2 groundschool is just as lengthy, nauseating and tedious as the QFI one, it just concentrates on more relevant (to QTIs) stuff.....stall in manoeuvre, corner speed etc.
Very interested (but not surprised) to see that the type of Q appears to be irrelevant on the outside. Ever since I joined the RAF guys have said that QFI is 'your meal ticket outside'. Needless to say my choice to go QTI/QWI was based on the desire for more interesting flying (my opinion) and my doubts about the 'meal ticket' theory.
I would also disagree that the QFI tick opens up more doors..perhaps to PTC posts, but a lot of exchange tours require (on paper at least) a QWI tick. There are 3 Hawk QWIs that I can think of that are on overseas exchange, 2 on front line types.
At the end of the day though, some guys get the chance to choose their path, others don't. The main point is that it doesn't really matter. The majority of folks enjoy their 'I' tour(s), whatever the specialisation.
Moosa Aswayita!
Hawk QTIs do CFS groundschool (2, not 4 weeks, since prop theory etc was regarded as irrelevant). They also climb up the chain of B2, B1 and A2 etc.
And for BEagle's benefit, the A2 groundschool is just as lengthy, nauseating and tedious as the QFI one, it just concentrates on more relevant (to QTIs) stuff.....stall in manoeuvre, corner speed etc.
Very interested (but not surprised) to see that the type of Q appears to be irrelevant on the outside. Ever since I joined the RAF guys have said that QFI is 'your meal ticket outside'. Needless to say my choice to go QTI/QWI was based on the desire for more interesting flying (my opinion) and my doubts about the 'meal ticket' theory.
I would also disagree that the QFI tick opens up more doors..perhaps to PTC posts, but a lot of exchange tours require (on paper at least) a QWI tick. There are 3 Hawk QWIs that I can think of that are on overseas exchange, 2 on front line types.
At the end of the day though, some guys get the chance to choose their path, others don't. The main point is that it doesn't really matter. The majority of folks enjoy their 'I' tour(s), whatever the specialisation.
Moosa Aswayita!
