Ex Service Chiefs Take Aim at PM - Again
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Ex Service Chiefs Take Aim at PM - Again
Three ex-chiefs of the defence staff have launched a scathing attack on Gordon Brown's commitment to the war in Afghanistan and support for UK troops.
Lord Boyce said the government "did not realise we are at war" while Lord Inge said the armed forces never really believed Mr Brown was "on their side".
Lord Guthrie, meanwhile, accused Mr Brown of "dithering" over his pledge to send 500 more troops to Afghanistan.
The stinging criticism from three of the UK's most respected military figures came just hours after Mr Brown said the UK would not "walk away" from its Afghan commitments and would "succeed" in its mission.
It also comes ahead of the Remembrance Sunday and Armistice Day commemorations.
The disagreement with the ex-generals underlines Downing Street's increasingly uncomfortable relationship with retired generals in recent months, as public criticism of troop numbers and resources in Afghanistan has intensified.
So far, 93 UK service personnel have been killed in 2009 - the highest toll in a single year since the Falklands campaign 27 years ago.
Speaking in a debate on the armed forces in the House of Lords, Lord Boyce, Chief of the Defence Staff between 2001 and 2003, said the UK was in the middle of a "defence train crash".
Field Marshall Peter Inge served as chief of the defence staff between 1994 and 1997, entering the House of Lords in 1997.
General Charles Guthrie served in the army for more than 40 years, latterly as chief of the defence staff between 1997 and 2001.
Admiral Michael Boyce was First Sea Lord before serving as chief of the defence staff between 2001 and 2003. "It is too much to hope that the present government will provide the necessary cash to allow its aspirations to be realised properly or honourably," he said.
He said defence spending was falling as a share of national income and frequent changes at the top of the Ministry of Defence - where there have been four secretaries of state since 2006 - had been destabilising.
Lord Guthrie, who preceded Lord Boyce as head of the UK's armed forces, said that if more helicopters had been available to UK forces over the past year then lives would have been saved.
"I do think that military services, the people in the front line, are questioning whether the government is really, really committed to making progress in Afghanistan," he said.
The peer, who was chief of the defence staff between 1997 and 2001, criticised No 10's decision to make the mobilisation of a further 500 troops conditional on Nato allies boosting their own numbers, and the Afghan government being prepared to train more of its own soldiers.
If commanders on the ground had requested the troops, he said they should be sent regardless of political concerns.
And speaking about the extra troops, he told peers: "(They) are available, they are waiting and because of what appears to be dithering in London, are becoming unsettled."
Separately, Lord Inge claimed that the prime minister had "some baggage" as far as support for the armed forces was concerned.
"They have felt he has never really been on their side and they have not had his support," he said.
Defence Secretary Bob Ainsworth told BBC Radio 4's World at One: "Lord Guthrie has been making this same speech sadly for some time now."
Lord Boyce said the government "did not realise we are at war" while Lord Inge said the armed forces never really believed Mr Brown was "on their side".
Lord Guthrie, meanwhile, accused Mr Brown of "dithering" over his pledge to send 500 more troops to Afghanistan.
The stinging criticism from three of the UK's most respected military figures came just hours after Mr Brown said the UK would not "walk away" from its Afghan commitments and would "succeed" in its mission.
It also comes ahead of the Remembrance Sunday and Armistice Day commemorations.
The disagreement with the ex-generals underlines Downing Street's increasingly uncomfortable relationship with retired generals in recent months, as public criticism of troop numbers and resources in Afghanistan has intensified.
So far, 93 UK service personnel have been killed in 2009 - the highest toll in a single year since the Falklands campaign 27 years ago.
Speaking in a debate on the armed forces in the House of Lords, Lord Boyce, Chief of the Defence Staff between 2001 and 2003, said the UK was in the middle of a "defence train crash".
Field Marshall Peter Inge served as chief of the defence staff between 1994 and 1997, entering the House of Lords in 1997.
General Charles Guthrie served in the army for more than 40 years, latterly as chief of the defence staff between 1997 and 2001.
Admiral Michael Boyce was First Sea Lord before serving as chief of the defence staff between 2001 and 2003. "It is too much to hope that the present government will provide the necessary cash to allow its aspirations to be realised properly or honourably," he said.
He said defence spending was falling as a share of national income and frequent changes at the top of the Ministry of Defence - where there have been four secretaries of state since 2006 - had been destabilising.
Lord Guthrie, who preceded Lord Boyce as head of the UK's armed forces, said that if more helicopters had been available to UK forces over the past year then lives would have been saved.
"I do think that military services, the people in the front line, are questioning whether the government is really, really committed to making progress in Afghanistan," he said.
The peer, who was chief of the defence staff between 1997 and 2001, criticised No 10's decision to make the mobilisation of a further 500 troops conditional on Nato allies boosting their own numbers, and the Afghan government being prepared to train more of its own soldiers.
If commanders on the ground had requested the troops, he said they should be sent regardless of political concerns.
And speaking about the extra troops, he told peers: "(They) are available, they are waiting and because of what appears to be dithering in London, are becoming unsettled."
Separately, Lord Inge claimed that the prime minister had "some baggage" as far as support for the armed forces was concerned.
"They have felt he has never really been on their side and they have not had his support," he said.
Defence Secretary Bob Ainsworth told BBC Radio 4's World at One: "Lord Guthrie has been making this same speech sadly for some time now."
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A bit off thread but I heard an interview with Bob Ainsworth on the radio yesterday (radio 4 from memory), and he yet again was replying to a question about helicopters, by saying helicopter hours are up in total (in Afghanistan).
Even though I was out hiking at the time, I must admit I found myself saying out loud 'you have not got a clue what you are talking about'.
Do our MP's and leaders really not realise that having one Chinook fly twice in a row on for example a MERT job, will not save as many lives as two Chinooks flying one mission each, and thus getting to both casualties more quickly.
We have already had examples of the above leading to extreme measures to try to save casualties. This makes my blood boil. I am no longer serving, and even listening to our buffoon type politicians on the radio makes me want to shout out loud. God knows how the actual medical team/flyers in theatre feel when someone needs their help, and bravely they are more than prepared to go, but due to lies and ignorance on the part of politicians, there is no airframe to carry them!
Right....3, 2, 1, and breath again.
Even though I was out hiking at the time, I must admit I found myself saying out loud 'you have not got a clue what you are talking about'.
Do our MP's and leaders really not realise that having one Chinook fly twice in a row on for example a MERT job, will not save as many lives as two Chinooks flying one mission each, and thus getting to both casualties more quickly.
We have already had examples of the above leading to extreme measures to try to save casualties. This makes my blood boil. I am no longer serving, and even listening to our buffoon type politicians on the radio makes me want to shout out loud. God knows how the actual medical team/flyers in theatre feel when someone needs their help, and bravely they are more than prepared to go, but due to lies and ignorance on the part of politicians, there is no airframe to carry them!
Right....3, 2, 1, and breath again.
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... the armed forces never really believed Mr Brown was "on their side".
With regards to these statements though, I'd be more interested if they were being made by the existing chiefs.
They might start by asking why at a time when MOD Departments are taking huge hits because of the lack of funding, money can be found for yet another £30BILLION for the fat cats at the banks (who still aren't lending).
Edited to ask whether anyone knows why they have just created another Defence Minister at a cost of £200k+ PA ??
STH
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Some might question whether it might have been better had the starred-officers made their comments when serving - before they got their gongs and knighthoods etc?
I am afraid, I don't know but they are only human and I am very glad they are doing so now.
Nonetheless, perhaps this will encourage those in-post at present to do likewise - and their subordinates to follow suit.
Maybe then we can start to rid our Services of the self-serving attitudes and behaviour exhibited by a number of the prehistoric remnants of a peace-time military, who have not faced real combat. Even those who, from the comfort of an ops room, have had to commit people to their death are affected by the enormity and futility of war.
Such people are not afraid to ask questions and to tell the emperor that his new clothes are a figment of his imagination. (A naked Broon does not bear thinking about!)
More of the same please from higher-level dissenters.
I am afraid, I don't know but they are only human and I am very glad they are doing so now.
Nonetheless, perhaps this will encourage those in-post at present to do likewise - and their subordinates to follow suit.
Maybe then we can start to rid our Services of the self-serving attitudes and behaviour exhibited by a number of the prehistoric remnants of a peace-time military, who have not faced real combat. Even those who, from the comfort of an ops room, have had to commit people to their death are affected by the enormity and futility of war.
Such people are not afraid to ask questions and to tell the emperor that his new clothes are a figment of his imagination. (A naked Broon does not bear thinking about!)
More of the same please from higher-level dissenters.
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I'm with Flipster on this, but not quite as forgiving as he is.
Considering that these officers were in very senior positions at the time of the SDR and all the changes that followed that Mr Haddon-Cave referred to the other week as well - self preservation of pensions etc seem to have had a much higher priority than speaking out against the changes which led to the situation we find ourselves in now.
I find the words of all three of them, as a consequence extremely hollow. Nothing that they will say will be more than a gnat bite in the 24hour news cycle that this administration exists by. Come Monday morning most of the electorate will be more concerned about who got the most 10s in Strictly or who got through in X Factor.
As Flip says, hopefully todays generation of star rankers will have a bit more guts to speak out whilst they are in positions of being able to do something.
However.
I'm not going to hold my breath.
Considering that these officers were in very senior positions at the time of the SDR and all the changes that followed that Mr Haddon-Cave referred to the other week as well - self preservation of pensions etc seem to have had a much higher priority than speaking out against the changes which led to the situation we find ourselves in now.
I find the words of all three of them, as a consequence extremely hollow. Nothing that they will say will be more than a gnat bite in the 24hour news cycle that this administration exists by. Come Monday morning most of the electorate will be more concerned about who got the most 10s in Strictly or who got through in X Factor.
As Flip says, hopefully todays generation of star rankers will have a bit more guts to speak out whilst they are in positions of being able to do something.
However.
I'm not going to hold my breath.
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flipster
It is 6 years since any of those Noble Lords held any Position of Authority in the Armed Forces.
What they are doing is drawing attention to the calamitous effects of the decisions made by someone who has never served in HM's Armed Forces but who, for short term "Political Advantage", seeks to divert resources that could assist the forces of the Crown (in the execution of their duties) to projects that could possibly give some political kudos prior to the forthcoming General Election.
PS If any of "todays generation of star rankers" spoke out - they wouldn't be in Post for very long. They would be replaced by those who could be depended on to "Not rock the Boat".
It is 6 years since any of those Noble Lords held any Position of Authority in the Armed Forces.
What they are doing is drawing attention to the calamitous effects of the decisions made by someone who has never served in HM's Armed Forces but who, for short term "Political Advantage", seeks to divert resources that could assist the forces of the Crown (in the execution of their duties) to projects that could possibly give some political kudos prior to the forthcoming General Election.
PS If any of "todays generation of star rankers" spoke out - they wouldn't be in Post for very long. They would be replaced by those who could be depended on to "Not rock the Boat".
Defence Secretary Bob Ainsworth told BBC Radio 4's World at One: "Lord Guthrie has been making this same speech sadly for some time now."
Ex Service Chiefs Take Aim at PM - Again
Meltchett - Dont be too sure about them all getting sacked. In the event of a hung parliament, the Lib Dems will probably keep Nu Lab in power!
MGD - hung parliament - is that when you drive down the Mall the morning after the election and see Brown et al swinging from the lamp posts?
Or would that be wishful thinking? Then again, unless Cameron pulls his finger out, you may - depressingly - be right. Fingers crossed eh.
Or would that be wishful thinking? Then again, unless Cameron pulls his finger out, you may - depressingly - be right. Fingers crossed eh.
Mike Boyce (as he is known to his chums) certainly did speak out when he was in - why do you think he only did 2 years as CDS?
He bitch-slapped Brown around the Cabinet Table immediately prior to TELIC 1, and more importantly forced the 'legality' issue. Without the latter, we would've all been the creek!
He bitch-slapped Brown around the Cabinet Table immediately prior to TELIC 1, and more importantly forced the 'legality' issue. Without the latter, we would've all been the creek!
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True
But the fact he was 'side-stepped' explains why Caz is right. Nonetheless, the more that speak up the better.
For evil to flourish, all that is required is for good men (and women) to do nothing.
Where have all the good guys gone?
But the fact he was 'side-stepped' explains why Caz is right. Nonetheless, the more that speak up the better.
For evil to flourish, all that is required is for good men (and women) to do nothing.
Where have all the good guys gone?
One of the reasons that 1* , 2* and 3* officers do not rock the boat can be explained in this document:
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/111BA...onBenefits.pdf
This is what a fairly senior AAC pilot told me recently.
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/111BA...onBenefits.pdf
This is what a fairly senior AAC pilot told me recently.
seanbean
To be fair the previous light blue CDS was Harding who was forced to resign over the Lady Buck "incident" and prior to that was (the now) Lord Craig who left post just as Gulf War 1 was coming to an end. People who post on these fine boards who also left in that sort of timescale do, sometimes (
), get rounded on for being 'cold war warriors'...!
Perhaps once Sir Jock has his Lord-ship under his belt he may speak out. But don't hold your breath!
To be fair the previous light blue CDS was Harding who was forced to resign over the Lady Buck "incident" and prior to that was (the now) Lord Craig who left post just as Gulf War 1 was coming to an end. People who post on these fine boards who also left in that sort of timescale do, sometimes (
), get rounded on for being 'cold war warriors'...!Perhaps once Sir Jock has his Lord-ship under his belt he may speak out. But don't hold your breath!
