EFA delays
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EFA delays
Further delays are expected to the delivery and operational use of the RAF's new Eurofighter aircraft, according to a BBC investigation. . .The Ministry of Defence is even withholding part of its payments for the programme until the continuing problems are rectified.
BBC Radio 4's Today programme says manufacturers BAE Systems may even have to pay damages because of the delays.
The Eurofighter, the most expensive project in British military history, has been dogged by delays since it was conceived in 1984.
Defence minister Lewis Moonie has admitted to the Commons there had been "slippage" but he is confident the Eurofighter will enter service this summer.
But a senior defence official told the BBC the MoD was resigned to the fact that the project will be delayed for another year.
BBC defence correspondent Andrew Gilligan said that even when the plane was ready, the first Eurofighters would remain in the factory for a further two years for testing.
Jet shortage
There are plans to set up an RAF base in a corner of the factory to allow the MoD to claim that the Eurofighter had entered service, he added.
The main hold up has been production of the fully kitted out aircraft, known as IPA1, as opposed to prototypes already seen at airshows.
IPA1 was supposed to fly last August, but still has not left the ground.
The RAF was supposed to start training in March, with first deliveries in June.
Aviation consultant John Lake said: "That simply is not going to happen."
He says the delays will leave the RAF short of jets as there is little evidence that anyone is making arrangements to cover the expected capability gaps.
But Tim Ripley, of Lancaster University, says there is still the chance that BAE Systems could pull the project back closer to schedule.
Inevitable delays
"It is far easier to recover from these types of issues at this stage.
"Once you go beyond June then the knock-on effects will start to kick in and the bow wave will start spreading throughout the RAF."
Bruce George, chair of Commons defence select committee, insists that despite 42 months delay the programme is not in deep trouble.
"Delays in these complicated processes are inevitable," he said.
"One thing is certain that if it does slip, BAE will have liquidated damages which I am certain will be claimed and will have to be paid.
"I believe they will be operational in 2006."
The MoD said it was disappointed by delays to the flight of IPA1 and was assessing the implications for the rest of the Eurofighter programme.
A spokesman for BAE Systems confirmed some money had not been paid by the MoD but said he did not like the word "withheld".
BBC Radio 4's Today programme says manufacturers BAE Systems may even have to pay damages because of the delays.
The Eurofighter, the most expensive project in British military history, has been dogged by delays since it was conceived in 1984.
Defence minister Lewis Moonie has admitted to the Commons there had been "slippage" but he is confident the Eurofighter will enter service this summer.
But a senior defence official told the BBC the MoD was resigned to the fact that the project will be delayed for another year.
BBC defence correspondent Andrew Gilligan said that even when the plane was ready, the first Eurofighters would remain in the factory for a further two years for testing.
Jet shortage
There are plans to set up an RAF base in a corner of the factory to allow the MoD to claim that the Eurofighter had entered service, he added.
The main hold up has been production of the fully kitted out aircraft, known as IPA1, as opposed to prototypes already seen at airshows.
IPA1 was supposed to fly last August, but still has not left the ground.
The RAF was supposed to start training in March, with first deliveries in June.
Aviation consultant John Lake said: "That simply is not going to happen."
He says the delays will leave the RAF short of jets as there is little evidence that anyone is making arrangements to cover the expected capability gaps.
But Tim Ripley, of Lancaster University, says there is still the chance that BAE Systems could pull the project back closer to schedule.
Inevitable delays
"It is far easier to recover from these types of issues at this stage.
"Once you go beyond June then the knock-on effects will start to kick in and the bow wave will start spreading throughout the RAF."
Bruce George, chair of Commons defence select committee, insists that despite 42 months delay the programme is not in deep trouble.
"Delays in these complicated processes are inevitable," he said.
"One thing is certain that if it does slip, BAE will have liquidated damages which I am certain will be claimed and will have to be paid.
"I believe they will be operational in 2006."
The MoD said it was disappointed by delays to the flight of IPA1 and was assessing the implications for the rest of the Eurofighter programme.
A spokesman for BAE Systems confirmed some money had not been paid by the MoD but said he did not like the word "withheld".
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Same old same old. Why do the Government let BAe get away with it all the time. Just buy Yank gear. It's far superior now and has been for 25 years. F16 block D will do just as much as EFA and probably looks smaller on the radar. 
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I hope the RAF people in procurement are enjoying their consultancy jobs with yet another company that has sold us delayed kit, that no doubt will not work, and will not perform as well as us off the shelf kit. Cynical, yes, but born of experience.
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Fook it, lets just buy the Gripen. Aren't we building some parts of it for the swedes anyway?
Edited coz even £*** getes censored now!
[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: TimC ]</p>
Edited coz even £*** getes censored now!
[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: TimC ]</p>
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Bad idea TimC. That would be as criminally insane and damaging as the cancellation of TSR2, which was at a similar stage of development and had just as promising a future. You do know the TSR2 farce don't you? BTW Gripen is not really in the same league as EF Typhoid, is it.
The old "TSR2" chestnut... I love that one. I heard it was 75 years ahead of it's time, could do Mach 6, go 5000 nautical miles AND had a thought controlled weapons system.
It's the perennial "one that got away" story - Ya gotta let it go people, IT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING!!
BTW, How's ASRAAM coming along?
It's the perennial "one that got away" story - Ya gotta let it go people, IT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING!!
BTW, How's ASRAAM coming along?
The TSR2 did everything it was expected to - and more. Except that it was killed by Wislon, Healey and Brown. And, of course, that self-interested person Earl Mountbottom who undermined the RAF's need for TSR2 on each and every occasion, producing little Buccaneer models to demonstrate that we could have 4 Buccaneers for every TSR2. Yes- or probably a couple of dozen Chipmunks either!
But it's the usual story from 't Bungling Baron Waste o' Space! EFA - Ever Fewer Airframes or Evaded Farnborough AGAIN is becoming a real sad joke. Like every other BWoS product it's late, underperforming and over budget.....
Gripen and F-35? Makes sense, doesn't it! I wouldn't be surprised to see the first F-35s in squadron service before the first TypHoons are in RAF squadron service at RAF bases - not in a hangar at Warton!
How's the Nimrod 2000 coming along, Bungling Baron BWoS? It's now 2002, you'll note!!
[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>
But it's the usual story from 't Bungling Baron Waste o' Space! EFA - Ever Fewer Airframes or Evaded Farnborough AGAIN is becoming a real sad joke. Like every other BWoS product it's late, underperforming and over budget.....
Gripen and F-35? Makes sense, doesn't it! I wouldn't be surprised to see the first F-35s in squadron service before the first TypHoons are in RAF squadron service at RAF bases - not in a hangar at Warton!
How's the Nimrod 2000 coming along, Bungling Baron BWoS? It's now 2002, you'll note!!
[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>
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someone, somewhere appears to rattling some journos' cages.... .-------------
The Times. .February 14, 2002
Eurofighter cost to UK taxpayers jumps to £21.5bn. .By Michael Evans, Defence Editor. . . .THE cost to British taxpayers of the Eurofighter combat aircraft programme has jumped to £21.5 billion, according to the latest Ministry of Defence estimate. . .The increase caused astonishment among Opposition MPs. James Gray, the Conservative defence spokesman, intends to ask the Government for an explanation.
The sharp rise was disclosed as the MoD agreed that there was going to be a further slippage in the Eurofighter handover date. The first production version should have been ready in August last year, but now is not expected until next month. Handover of the first Eurofighter to the RAF will not be until July or later.
The RAF is to buy 232 of the multirole aircraft which have been developed by a consortium from Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy.
The cost of the programme announced in 1998 when the order for the Eurofighters was confirmed, was £15.9 billion, making it the most expensive equipment project embarked on by the MoD. The previous most costly programmes were the Tornado aircraft, at about £12 billion, also involving European collaboration, and the construction of four Trident ballistic missile submarines for £10 billion.
The increasing cost of the Eurofighter has been monitored by the National Audit Office in its annual MoD major projects report. The latest figure of £21.5 billion, which was confirmed by an MoD official, has been passed to the audit office, although it will not be made public until next month in the annual major projects report.
The audit office and the ministry said that the big rise in the overall cost of the programme was due to a new accounting method. That included an estimate of inflation for the whole period in which the Eurofighters were being produced.
The Defence Ministry official said that the last Eurofighter would come off the production line in 2014. The figure of £21.5 billion, he said, was based on the current estimate of inflation throughout that period.
An audit office official said that the last figure the office had received from the MoD and published in a report was £18.8 billion. However, he said, the figure had gone “unnoticed”. He said the new accounting method, which included an assessment of likely depreciation, was a more honest way of presenting the cost of a huge programme such as the Eurofighter project.
Mr Gray said Eurofighter was a Cold War aircraft. “But we’ve got it for the next 50-odd years and it’s vital that the MoD stops the cost from spiralling.”
Paul Keetch, Liberal Democrat defence spokesman, said: “Parliament must be told why the cost has risen so much.”. . . .--------------------------------------------. .I concur with Beags, Gripen might not be as capable on paper but surely better to have an effective, functional aircraft than one which won't acheive its full potential until some distant unspecified date...
just my 2 pence worth
The Times. .February 14, 2002
Eurofighter cost to UK taxpayers jumps to £21.5bn. .By Michael Evans, Defence Editor. . . .THE cost to British taxpayers of the Eurofighter combat aircraft programme has jumped to £21.5 billion, according to the latest Ministry of Defence estimate. . .The increase caused astonishment among Opposition MPs. James Gray, the Conservative defence spokesman, intends to ask the Government for an explanation.
The sharp rise was disclosed as the MoD agreed that there was going to be a further slippage in the Eurofighter handover date. The first production version should have been ready in August last year, but now is not expected until next month. Handover of the first Eurofighter to the RAF will not be until July or later.
The RAF is to buy 232 of the multirole aircraft which have been developed by a consortium from Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy.
The cost of the programme announced in 1998 when the order for the Eurofighters was confirmed, was £15.9 billion, making it the most expensive equipment project embarked on by the MoD. The previous most costly programmes were the Tornado aircraft, at about £12 billion, also involving European collaboration, and the construction of four Trident ballistic missile submarines for £10 billion.
The increasing cost of the Eurofighter has been monitored by the National Audit Office in its annual MoD major projects report. The latest figure of £21.5 billion, which was confirmed by an MoD official, has been passed to the audit office, although it will not be made public until next month in the annual major projects report.
The audit office and the ministry said that the big rise in the overall cost of the programme was due to a new accounting method. That included an estimate of inflation for the whole period in which the Eurofighters were being produced.
The Defence Ministry official said that the last Eurofighter would come off the production line in 2014. The figure of £21.5 billion, he said, was based on the current estimate of inflation throughout that period.
An audit office official said that the last figure the office had received from the MoD and published in a report was £18.8 billion. However, he said, the figure had gone “unnoticed”. He said the new accounting method, which included an assessment of likely depreciation, was a more honest way of presenting the cost of a huge programme such as the Eurofighter project.
Mr Gray said Eurofighter was a Cold War aircraft. “But we’ve got it for the next 50-odd years and it’s vital that the MoD stops the cost from spiralling.”
Paul Keetch, Liberal Democrat defence spokesman, said: “Parliament must be told why the cost has risen so much.”. . . .--------------------------------------------. .I concur with Beags, Gripen might not be as capable on paper but surely better to have an effective, functional aircraft than one which won't acheive its full potential until some distant unspecified date...
just my 2 pence worth
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Why not copy the french idea of bringing an aircraft into service that underperforms and then upgrade it in place as they did with the Mirage 2000!
Oh! We already did with the F3!
Oh! We already did with the F3!
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When I worked in a certain Middle East country we bought Jaguars for £7 million each (I know the price 'cos I saw the export VAT invoice that came with the aircraft papers). At the same time we could had early F16s for $7 million each. By the way the Jaguar was bought for Air Defence (!) and sold by the same BAe that sold the Lightning to Saudia Arabia for ground attack! Amazing salesmen you have to say!
Nimrod 2000, EF2000..looks like the year 2000 wasn't a good one for aircraft production.
Has anyone seen/heard the latest unit cost for a Typhoon?
Has anyone seen/heard the latest unit cost for a Typhoon?
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Just out of curiosity, is the UK version of the Eurofighter still destined to go into service without a gun?
Are we the only member nation of this project with that spec for production aircraft?
Are we the only member nation of this project with that spec for production aircraft?
£57.9 m per unit !!!!! I thought we were buying this because it was going to be cheaper than the F15. Presumably, ths is before logisitic and mission support costs. Is this the figure for an operational EF with functioning DAS, radar, air and ground weapons or is this the airshow aircraft cost?
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Realistically speaking, when is the full production standard aircraft, with Meteor etc, voice, and all the other good things above and beyond basic spec, now meant to get to the front line? Can the F3 force take the punishment in their now diminished state?
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SSS as far as I am aware the Typhoon was originally due to be fitted with a single MauserWerke BK-27mm cannon, however this was scrapped as the MOD's better judgment prevailed, apparently with the capability for ASRAAM's and Sidewinders, a gun is a secondary consideration. Not being a pilot (yet) myself I would not know the use of a gun in comparison to missiles but with full payload you can only have 5 ASRAAM's on a Typhoon (I think). Seems a bit underarmed for an advanced multi-role aircraft, but hey what do I know.
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Thanks Charlieboy,
I know things have moved on considerably since those days, but I seem to recall the USAF looking somewhat silly after deciding that the F4 was such a capable missile platform it had no need for a gun either.
Aerial engagement matters aside, with the Typhoon being a true multirole aircraft I would have thought a cannon for opportunistic air-to-ground work would have been a non-negotiable requirement.
Ah well.
I know things have moved on considerably since those days, but I seem to recall the USAF looking somewhat silly after deciding that the F4 was such a capable missile platform it had no need for a gun either.
Aerial engagement matters aside, with the Typhoon being a true multirole aircraft I would have thought a cannon for opportunistic air-to-ground work would have been a non-negotiable requirement.
Ah well.
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I think the big problems of having no gun are:. .1. the cost of supplying a precision machine manufactured lump of steel to take its place (which has to be lifed etc. like every other part of the a/c) will be not insignificant. . .2. When going against a helo with decent IR supression that hovers or lands a gun is the only way to go (that is why the F3 had an air to ground gun mode fitted for ops in FRY).. .Balance this against:. .1. Only very occaisional snap shot guns- we wanna kill them at 50 miles with AMRAAM (or meteor?) (but maybe it will happen more often with an agile a/c, I dunno).. .2. The damage that firing guns (gas and vibration) cause to sensitive kit (I know that should be sorted out but it probably is not!).. .Funnily enough the MOD has gone for the cheaper option, even if the savings are going to be very small <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> and it will have to be upgraded later;. .same thing different a/c <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">