Black Hawk Down
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Black Hawk Down
It's out at last, the movie of the book of the cock up. Not seen it yet but what I've just seen on BBC2 is some tree hugging left wing lesbian slagging it off saying:
"The only people it will interest are those who like big boys' toys, and crashing about in snazzy helicopters"
........Yup!
"The only people it will interest are those who like big boys' toys, and crashing about in snazzy helicopters"
........Yup!
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You've got to hand it to them. Only the yanks could make such a movie out of a total F*** Up. Their psyche is worrying; bags of effort nil progress but who cares so long as ass is being kicked (Vietnam, Iran (more downed helos - all their own work), Black Hawk Down etc etc etc)
It's a shame that the tree hugging lesbian said "The only people it will interest are those who like big boys' toys, and crashing about in snazzy helicopters".
I'm sure those who were actually there and saw their comrades die would have a different view.
It may have been a cock up, but show me an operation that hasn't.
I'm sure those who were actually there and saw their comrades die would have a different view.
It may have been a cock up, but show me an operation that hasn't.
I agree Scarlet, to the people in the situation, ON BOTH SIDES, watching such carnage and watching your buddies get killed, it will be a painful reminder if the film is anything as realistic as the book.
But for those that created the situation - enjoy the replay of a total shambles. The book is a must read on blunders and how not to do it next time. I doubt the film will explore too many of those though. But at least it will be worth watching simply for the big boys toys and snazzy helicopters (does it get any better than that?)
Does the Lezzo want a date to see it with me?
But for those that created the situation - enjoy the replay of a total shambles. The book is a must read on blunders and how not to do it next time. I doubt the film will explore too many of those though. But at least it will be worth watching simply for the big boys toys and snazzy helicopters (does it get any better than that?)
Does the Lezzo want a date to see it with me?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Well USA Today liked it.
<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20020118/3785293s.htm" target="_blank">http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20020118/3785293s.htm</a>
'Black Hawk' is a brutal flight Entertainment War lessons for actors playing the soldiers, cover story, 10D * * * * review, 13D
By Scott Bowles
USA TODAY
NEW YORK -- Like the soldiers in Black Hawk Down, audiences will find themselves under siege the moment the mission begins.
The Ridley Scott-Jerry Bruckheimer film, which opens today nationwide after opening Dec. 28 in New York and L.A., compresses the 16-hour Somali firefight into an unrelenting 2-hour battle scene. Scott substitutes detonations for dialogue, explosions for exposition, to tell the story of the worst American combat casualties since Vietnam.
But with the perils facing U.S. troops overseas after Sept. 11, are audiences ready for the bloody re-enactment of the battle that claimed 18 Americans in 1993? The film never flinches from the fates of soldiers, some of whom are beaten, shot and literally torn apart.
''It's not an easy film to watch,'' says film critic/historian Leonard Maltin. ''It will be interesting to see if people can look past the brutality and see the heroes being portrayed.''
Scott believes they can. ''People want to know what soldiers are facing'' in Afghanistan, he says. ''They're drawn to the truth, even if it's hard to watch.''
Hawk takes the frenetic opening of the D-Day invasion in Saving Private Ryan and maintains that pace throughout the film. Yet it does so with only one computer-generated effect, of a spiraling helicopter hit by a grenade. The rest of the movie, shot in Morocco, uses the real machinery, much like the groundbreaking war film Apocalypse Now.
''I didn't want something that looked artificial,'' Scott says. ''This was a real event that seemed to be in the news for only a few days. If we were taking the chance to tell the true story of what combat is like, we had to be as right as possible.''
If truth really is the first casualty of war, then it escapes with only superficial wounds in the film, says Sgt. Matt Eversmann, one of the men who survived the firefight. ''They got the most important part right,'' says Eversmann, played in the film by Josh Hartnett. ''The men who fought did what they set out to do and did it bravely.''
Despite rave reviews, the film received no Golden Globe nominations, a snub that rankles Hartnett. ''I don't see how a movie so realistic about an important world event didn't get nominated for anything.''
Scott sent actors through military training at Fort Benning (Ga.), Fort Campbell (Ky.) and Fort Bragg (N.C.). The Army provided four Black Hawk helicopters and 140 personnel to add authenticity.
Tom Sizemore added his own by getting to know his real-life counterpart, Lt. Col. Danny McKnight. ''He didn't run or duck for cover (during the raid) because he didn't want to show the men under him that he was afraid,'' Sizemore says. ''So my character doesn't, either.''
Hawk isn't completely faithful to Mark Bowden's best-selling book. It pays little attention to the thousands of Somalis who were killed, blends some characters and fudges a few facts. Soldiers go without goggles and wear their names on their helmets so moviegoers can keep track of the stars in the chaos. At the request of the Pentagon, one real-life soldier's name, John Stebbins, was changed because he is serving 30 years in a military prison for raping his daughter.
The infamous images of soldiers' bodies being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu also were omitted, Scott says, because that happened the day after the firefight. He wanted to keep the battle as close to real time as possible.
''I just wanted to show a glimpse of how soldiers put their lives on the line for us every day,'' he says. ''Because we often don't seem to notice.''
Eversmann did. In one scene, a soldier picks up the severed hand of a comrade and puts it in his jacket. ''That happened,'' Eversmann recalls. ''We didn't want to leave anyone behind, even something like that.''
The scene, he says, ''told me they got the message right. You could never really capture what happened in Somalia. Even I can't remember it all.
''But we never gave up on that mission, and that's what comes through in the movie.''
[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: ORAC ]</p>
<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20020118/3785293s.htm" target="_blank">http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20020118/3785293s.htm</a>
'Black Hawk' is a brutal flight Entertainment War lessons for actors playing the soldiers, cover story, 10D * * * * review, 13D
By Scott Bowles
USA TODAY
NEW YORK -- Like the soldiers in Black Hawk Down, audiences will find themselves under siege the moment the mission begins.
The Ridley Scott-Jerry Bruckheimer film, which opens today nationwide after opening Dec. 28 in New York and L.A., compresses the 16-hour Somali firefight into an unrelenting 2-hour battle scene. Scott substitutes detonations for dialogue, explosions for exposition, to tell the story of the worst American combat casualties since Vietnam.
But with the perils facing U.S. troops overseas after Sept. 11, are audiences ready for the bloody re-enactment of the battle that claimed 18 Americans in 1993? The film never flinches from the fates of soldiers, some of whom are beaten, shot and literally torn apart.
''It's not an easy film to watch,'' says film critic/historian Leonard Maltin. ''It will be interesting to see if people can look past the brutality and see the heroes being portrayed.''
Scott believes they can. ''People want to know what soldiers are facing'' in Afghanistan, he says. ''They're drawn to the truth, even if it's hard to watch.''
Hawk takes the frenetic opening of the D-Day invasion in Saving Private Ryan and maintains that pace throughout the film. Yet it does so with only one computer-generated effect, of a spiraling helicopter hit by a grenade. The rest of the movie, shot in Morocco, uses the real machinery, much like the groundbreaking war film Apocalypse Now.
''I didn't want something that looked artificial,'' Scott says. ''This was a real event that seemed to be in the news for only a few days. If we were taking the chance to tell the true story of what combat is like, we had to be as right as possible.''
If truth really is the first casualty of war, then it escapes with only superficial wounds in the film, says Sgt. Matt Eversmann, one of the men who survived the firefight. ''They got the most important part right,'' says Eversmann, played in the film by Josh Hartnett. ''The men who fought did what they set out to do and did it bravely.''
Despite rave reviews, the film received no Golden Globe nominations, a snub that rankles Hartnett. ''I don't see how a movie so realistic about an important world event didn't get nominated for anything.''
Scott sent actors through military training at Fort Benning (Ga.), Fort Campbell (Ky.) and Fort Bragg (N.C.). The Army provided four Black Hawk helicopters and 140 personnel to add authenticity.
Tom Sizemore added his own by getting to know his real-life counterpart, Lt. Col. Danny McKnight. ''He didn't run or duck for cover (during the raid) because he didn't want to show the men under him that he was afraid,'' Sizemore says. ''So my character doesn't, either.''
Hawk isn't completely faithful to Mark Bowden's best-selling book. It pays little attention to the thousands of Somalis who were killed, blends some characters and fudges a few facts. Soldiers go without goggles and wear their names on their helmets so moviegoers can keep track of the stars in the chaos. At the request of the Pentagon, one real-life soldier's name, John Stebbins, was changed because he is serving 30 years in a military prison for raping his daughter.
The infamous images of soldiers' bodies being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu also were omitted, Scott says, because that happened the day after the firefight. He wanted to keep the battle as close to real time as possible.
''I just wanted to show a glimpse of how soldiers put their lives on the line for us every day,'' he says. ''Because we often don't seem to notice.''
Eversmann did. In one scene, a soldier picks up the severed hand of a comrade and puts it in his jacket. ''That happened,'' Eversmann recalls. ''We didn't want to leave anyone behind, even something like that.''
The scene, he says, ''told me they got the message right. You could never really capture what happened in Somalia. Even I can't remember it all.
''But we never gave up on that mission, and that's what comes through in the movie.''
[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: ORAC ]</p>
I read the book some years back and, yes, it catalogues the cock-ups but it is also the story of the soldiers on the ground. Given their orders, off they go and you read about the dilemmmas and problems they face. I am looking forward to seeing the movie from that point of view. Sure, the USA did not come out of this one covered in glory but it did involve servicemen with their own stories to tell.
There is one part of the book that deals with trying to save a dying soldier. The description should be read by all who feel that first aid training is a waste of time - you will weep.
There is one part of the book that deals with trying to save a dying soldier. The description should be read by all who feel that first aid training is a waste of time - you will weep.
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If you want to weep, cheer, or just think.."There but for the grace of God".....
<a href="http://www.philly.com/packages/somalia/sitemap.asp" target="_blank">http://www.philly.com/packages/somalia/sitemap.asp</a>
The people involved tell their own stories there.
Tony
<a href="http://www.philly.com/packages/somalia/sitemap.asp" target="_blank">http://www.philly.com/packages/somalia/sitemap.asp</a>
The people involved tell their own stories there.
Tony
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Of course USA today liked it -Product placement- there's a shot of their paper in the film (the guy who gets lifted near the start was reading it before his convoy sets off).
Ace film, read the book a while back & know a pilot who was in theatre at the time, although not involved in the cockup, flying MH-53's for the USAF, but from what he knows of it he thought it was a fairly accurate account of what happened.
Def. one of my favourite films, must be said.
Ace film, read the book a while back & know a pilot who was in theatre at the time, although not involved in the cockup, flying MH-53's for the USAF, but from what he knows of it he thought it was a fairly accurate account of what happened.
Def. one of my favourite films, must be said.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Well, just seen it. Excellent film. Shows it all, warts and all. No glory, no excuses, no happy movie ending.
10 out of 10.
(Strange bloke beside me had brought his 2 daughters who looked about 8 and 9 - who definitely did not enjoy it!!.Takes all sorts).
ps. No clapping, cheering etc from the audience, who all left a bit somber. Can understand why Hollywood lovies have'nt nominated it for anything. Not their jingoistic sort of movie at all.
10 out of 10.
(Strange bloke beside me had brought his 2 daughters who looked about 8 and 9 - who definitely did not enjoy it!!.Takes all sorts).
ps. No clapping, cheering etc from the audience, who all left a bit somber. Can understand why Hollywood lovies have'nt nominated it for anything. Not their jingoistic sort of movie at all.
Definitely looking forward to seeing it. Don't think its the Americans who have the monopoly on filming their disasters; look at 'Dunkirk', A Bridge too Far', 'Zulu Dawn' etc. In fact almost the entire British film industry was kept going in the 50s making war films of all descriptions.
Saw it last night. 10 out of 10. Go and see it not as a cock up (how many plans survive the first shot?), but as the story of a group of soldiers fighting against overwhelming odds.
Incidently, the mission, to capture to of Mohammed Farah Aidid's lieutenants, succeeded, although at a higher price than anyone had probably allowed for.
Incidently, the mission, to capture to of Mohammed Farah Aidid's lieutenants, succeeded, although at a higher price than anyone had probably allowed for.
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Apart from the obvious cock up side of things it wasn't bad!!!
Probably about 1hr+ of continous flying/fighting/bullet dodging and good angled rpg-ing!
Don't froget - it is only BASED on the facts from the novel......so a little distortion Hollywood style is inevitable!!
On an intersting note, they are told before they go in that they can't have the AC-130 as top cover. How much would that have helped a guerilla warfare-in-the-streets scenario?!!
Will now apply to be exempt from CCS after watching this!!!!
-------------------------------------------
B-L
Probably about 1hr+ of continous flying/fighting/bullet dodging and good angled rpg-ing!
Don't froget - it is only BASED on the facts from the novel......so a little distortion Hollywood style is inevitable!!
On an intersting note, they are told before they go in that they can't have the AC-130 as top cover. How much would that have helped a guerilla warfare-in-the-streets scenario?!!
Will now apply to be exempt from CCS after watching this!!!!
-------------------------------------------
B-L
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Saw it on Friday night, 11 out of 10. Amazed that the yank director made it completely un gung-ho. Fairly shocking in parts, you never know Joe public might actually get a rough idea about the realities of warfare and our work from this.. .Loads of people left the cinema (East London) in tears, unfortunately spoiled by some of our overseas brethren who seemed to find the idea of Americans dying very funny, don't think I need to say any more.. .Go and see it.
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Saw it on friday - great "boys toys action film".
Glad I didnt join the infantry!
I personally like the way the rescue convoy left the blokes at the end to run out after the armoured vehicles - cheers for the rescue!
Glad I didnt join the infantry!
I personally like the way the rescue convoy left the blokes at the end to run out after the armoured vehicles - cheers for the rescue!
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Fair point Crowe, got a little carried away in the emotion of it all, meant American written, funded, acted, edited...etc but not directed (I think J Bruckheimer is spam though.)
Stand corrected, soz Ridley.
Stand corrected, soz Ridley.
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Read the book recently and saw the film. Surprisingly little 'Hollywood-isation' for a major blockbuster but one scene they missed out, that of a cow carrying militiamen being rinced by a minigun, was sadly missed! Also, I think the film failed to point out the concious decision made by the Rangers to begin firing into the crowds of somali, some women and children, to remove the gunmen among them. Gripping stuff nevertheless.
I wouldn't reccomend that Puma pilot with a possible posting coming up see it!
I wouldn't reccomend that Puma pilot with a possible posting coming up see it!
Thought it was a well made film, which as others commented, stayed pretty close to the version in the book and the actual events. I noticed the same effect with people leaving at the end, makes them think about the individuals who put their lives on the line in order to maintain some semblance of society and freedom when anarchy reigns.
Of course the ultimate reaction by the Clinton administration, may well have played a signficant part of the events of today!
Well apart from Ridley Scott directing it, what did the Brits ever do in the movie business?
Errrr, how about Ewan McGregor playing one of the starring roles. And what about that Simon West (Executive Producer), all the way from Letchworth!
No wonder the British movie industry is in such poor shape - the can't get no respect! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Of course the ultimate reaction by the Clinton administration, may well have played a signficant part of the events of today!
Well apart from Ridley Scott directing it, what did the Brits ever do in the movie business?
Errrr, how about Ewan McGregor playing one of the starring roles. And what about that Simon West (Executive Producer), all the way from Letchworth!
No wonder the British movie industry is in such poor shape - the can't get no respect! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
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10/10
Saw it on Sunday night. Packed movie theater, audience very quiet, and very sombre on way out.
It was a hard film. Just relentless action and it conveyed a lot of the horror, and being scared, and the agony of the pretty much everyone involved.
Might not do much for relations with the Somalis.
Saw it on Sunday night. Packed movie theater, audience very quiet, and very sombre on way out.
It was a hard film. Just relentless action and it conveyed a lot of the horror, and being scared, and the agony of the pretty much everyone involved.
Might not do much for relations with the Somalis.