Christmas in Seeb
Have to agree with the comments regarding EtOH abuse!
In 1991 the amount of illegally imported alcohol being drunk in Saudi Arabia was frankly scandalous; some crews nearly didn't make the first night as they were off to a "It didn't happen" party at a certain expat communications company. 'Room parties' were held by certain pi$$-heads who twisted the security cameras away so that no-one would see what was going on - these were attended by some of quite senior rank. One night my co-pilot staggered into our room, threw up on the carpet and into the sink, he was so drunk. The next day I found someone more sensible to fly with - if you can't lay off the pop for a few weeks (as you have to on Q in the Malvinas), then go and see a quack about your habit. Bleating about the bar being shut deserves no sympathy whatsoever. Sorry.
[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>
In 1991 the amount of illegally imported alcohol being drunk in Saudi Arabia was frankly scandalous; some crews nearly didn't make the first night as they were off to a "It didn't happen" party at a certain expat communications company. 'Room parties' were held by certain pi$$-heads who twisted the security cameras away so that no-one would see what was going on - these were attended by some of quite senior rank. One night my co-pilot staggered into our room, threw up on the carpet and into the sink, he was so drunk. The next day I found someone more sensible to fly with - if you can't lay off the pop for a few weeks (as you have to on Q in the Malvinas), then go and see a quack about your habit. Bleating about the bar being shut deserves no sympathy whatsoever. Sorry.
[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>
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Sideshow Bob said:
There is a big differance between a SH Helicopter sqn which is funded and trained to deploy into the field........
<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Sympaphy, Steer window: Enter!
The SH mates just get on with it, and yes we winge, but for too long we have made do with 5h1t whilst the "others" have "made do" with their air conditioned hotels. We are far from immune to winging, but try kipping next to a Chinook at 3 am when you are up in a few hours for a 7 hour day. My heart bleeds purple stuff.
Yozzer
There is a big differance between a SH Helicopter sqn which is funded and trained to deploy into the field........
<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Sympaphy, Steer window: Enter!
The SH mates just get on with it, and yes we winge, but for too long we have made do with 5h1t whilst the "others" have "made do" with their air conditioned hotels. We are far from immune to winging, but try kipping next to a Chinook at 3 am when you are up in a few hours for a 7 hour day. My heart bleeds purple stuff.
Yozzer
Hmmm. If it's all the same to you I'd rather not try to kip next door to any aircraft that's starting up.
But if that's your bag, I know a detachment you really ought to try and get on.
Merry Christmas and New Year to all.
But if that's your bag, I know a detachment you really ought to try and get on.
Merry Christmas and New Year to all.
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Tantrum over, and being away from family and friends at this time of year is a bummer for anyone regardless of accomodation or living conditions. A tent next to a flight line does not do it for me either, but better than the junglies in their bivvy bags under trees with the cotton mouths and chiggers (P/Star`96)
You cannot be "trained" to operate efficiently after disturbed sleep and an acceptance that SH boys can; gripped ones poo for a moment. No flight crew regardless of role should be placed in this position unless there is NO alternative, and frequently that decision is based upon cost, which IMHO is a large word with 2 "L"s in it.
Happy New Year to you and yours
Yozzer
You cannot be "trained" to operate efficiently after disturbed sleep and an acceptance that SH boys can; gripped ones poo for a moment. No flight crew regardless of role should be placed in this position unless there is NO alternative, and frequently that decision is based upon cost, which IMHO is a large word with 2 "L"s in it.
Happy New Year to you and yours
Yozzer
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Ralf Wiggums, Alcohol Abuse was not the issue here, as all flying had been suspended for the next two days, the issue is moral. It isn't very pleasant being away from your family at this time of year (I should know, out of 7 years of marrage, I've managed 3 christmases at home). Yosser, beening trained to operate without sleep is impossible, but as I know from my time on SH, you are trained to operate from field conditions, we are not. You are kitted to operate from field conditions, we are not. The only training I recieved after my three days notice to deploy was a 1 hour lecture from our friendly Rocks at Ice station Kilo. By the way our normal working day is 12 hours, 16 hours if we take on gas. Not very pleasant after 3 hours sleep.
[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: Sideshow Bob ]</p>
[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: Sideshow Bob ]</p>
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Woah folks, trading insults is not going to help anybodies case. One point which might come home to those that should care is that Flight Safety is not the only issue here. Operational effectiveness is undoubtedly affected. It was noticeable during the Falklands do that, after about three weeks in theatre, people were definitely down and finding it more difficult to concentrate. Confidence was affected as well and the accomodation was certainly a strong factor there.
Whilst a posh hotel is nice all one really needs is a comfortable and quiet place to rest ones weary body. It may well be a tent, in the right place, or a bunk somewhere but good rest is essential. One other point, where do the medics stand in all this? have they been involved?.
Whilst a posh hotel is nice all one really needs is a comfortable and quiet place to rest ones weary body. It may well be a tent, in the right place, or a bunk somewhere but good rest is essential. One other point, where do the medics stand in all this? have they been involved?.
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Art Field said:
One other point, where do the medics stand in all this? have they been involved?.
You may not believe this but it is absolutely true. In the Emerald toilet a few years ago they had an Aviation medicine group which consisted of the SMO and a rep from each squadron. Quite a powerful body it was and shaky old beds at the Fwd Op bases got changed or tightened. Late dinners and microwaves were provided, such luxury
Disruptive sleep patterns are a fact of life in NI, and eventually it can and usually does wear you down. Especially when working 21 consecutive days (wot weekends?). The answer from the SMO which he allowed immediatly was issued Tamazapan. Now short term I am all for that, but 2 years worth??
What really grips my goat on the origins of this thread, is that I will bet that a resonable standard of living is available within a resonable distance, and Aunty Betty will not pay for it. ....and when it becomes a UN issue, where do the UN coppers go to? I feel a Condor moment coming on from afar <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Yozzer
One other point, where do the medics stand in all this? have they been involved?.
You may not believe this but it is absolutely true. In the Emerald toilet a few years ago they had an Aviation medicine group which consisted of the SMO and a rep from each squadron. Quite a powerful body it was and shaky old beds at the Fwd Op bases got changed or tightened. Late dinners and microwaves were provided, such luxury
Disruptive sleep patterns are a fact of life in NI, and eventually it can and usually does wear you down. Especially when working 21 consecutive days (wot weekends?). The answer from the SMO which he allowed immediatly was issued Tamazapan. Now short term I am all for that, but 2 years worth??
What really grips my goat on the origins of this thread, is that I will bet that a resonable standard of living is available within a resonable distance, and Aunty Betty will not pay for it. ....and when it becomes a UN issue, where do the UN coppers go to? I feel a Condor moment coming on from afar <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Yozzer
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PNVS, people wouldnt mind if everybody that needs the kit got it, and not just the stackers. As an SH guy we cant even get the issue kit let alone the gucci stuff. Most of us have spent over a grand each just making ourselves comfortable. Having been abandoned by our lords and masters, because we worked for the UN at the time, when a previous particular poor campsite flooded, , I therefore agree with BEagle comments. Theres no problem with are forces doing the job, but give us the equipment / portable accom similar to the the yanks.
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Please See:
<a href="http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/legaff/mann8-3.html" target="_blank">http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/legaff/mann8-3.html</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.airdisaster.com/news/0100/29/news.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.airdisaster.com/news/0100/29/news.shtml</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.airdisaster.com/news/1199/18/news3.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.airdisaster.com/news/1199/18/news3.shtml</a>
<a href="http://www.ntsb.gov/speeches/ve990803.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ntsb.gov/speeches/ve990803.htm</a>
[ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: D-IFF_ident ]</p>
<a href="http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/legaff/mann8-3.html" target="_blank">http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/legaff/mann8-3.html</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.airdisaster.com/news/0100/29/news.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.airdisaster.com/news/0100/29/news.shtml</a>
And:
<a href="http://www.airdisaster.com/news/1199/18/news3.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.airdisaster.com/news/1199/18/news3.shtml</a>
<a href="http://www.ntsb.gov/speeches/ve990803.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ntsb.gov/speeches/ve990803.htm</a>
[ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: D-IFF_ident ]</p>
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<a href="http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi_bin/view_details.cgi?date=11201969&airline=Nigeria+Airways" target="_blank">http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi_bin/view_details.cgi?date=11201969&airline=Nigeria+Airways</a>
[ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: D-IFF_ident ]</p>
[ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: D-IFF_ident ]</p>
Don't forget that there are appropriate methods of improving your crew rest if you have reason to believe that you may be required to spend your CRP in an environment which may make rest difficult for you. Before throwing your teddies too far, just check your GASOs for the pertinent regulations and consult a UMO if you need clarification.
If after all that you have had difficulty achieving CRP, perhaps it might be best to go and chat to your boss first before leaping into Route Stage Report or Condor print. He will very probably support your view to higher authority if he's sufficiently convinced by your experience - or indeed give you a clearer view of things about which you may not be aware - but he can only help to improve matters if he's told about the genuine problems, rather than inconsequential inconveniences, which you may have encountered. Don't forget that he wants his team to succeed - and that we're all on that very same team!
If after all that you have had difficulty achieving CRP, perhaps it might be best to go and chat to your boss first before leaping into Route Stage Report or Condor print. He will very probably support your view to higher authority if he's sufficiently convinced by your experience - or indeed give you a clearer view of things about which you may not be aware - but he can only help to improve matters if he's told about the genuine problems, rather than inconsequential inconveniences, which you may have encountered. Don't forget that he wants his team to succeed - and that we're all on that very same team!
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Operating in less than ideal circumstances is something we must all be prepared to do in an Operational Theatre, if operationally necessary. It is right and proper for concerns to be aired through the appropriate chain of command or using the confidential reporting devices. However, when recourse to normal methods has no result and when people are treated like mushrooms, can anyone be suprised by the resultant 'whingeing'. I know that the commanders are aware of the problems - I want to know what is being done about them!
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To all those living in tents off the side of the runway...
Top job lads (and lasses)!
ps the driver who got the L101 off the runway after rejecting the other day...good job, that could have bu**ered us up for quite some time.
pps have a drink at the Gulf Hotel....much cheaper than the Intercon or the Hyatt, mind you so is Feeneys bar in the Howard Johnson.
cheers
Top job lads (and lasses)!
ps the driver who got the L101 off the runway after rejecting the other day...good job, that could have bu**ered us up for quite some time.
pps have a drink at the Gulf Hotel....much cheaper than the Intercon or the Hyatt, mind you so is Feeneys bar in the Howard Johnson.
cheers
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You guys have my deepest sympathy. The rationale behind proper crew rest and accommodation for aircrew is something that has been in established in commercial aviation for a long time. In an environment where beancounters try to chase even the smallest in savings, even they realise that it's conterproductive to have the pilots in charge of your multi million dollar assets fatigued because you put them in a tent.
I wish you every success in your battle with the blunties. I did the Gulf War, and it was mind boggling the amount of Rear Echelon Mother Fu <transfer interrupted> that ended up in theatre doing SLJ's. Save billions by closing the MOD, High Wycombe, and shooting anyone without a brevet.
I know know why I left. It's not brilliant out here, but I don't have to put up with that CRA? and neither should you. The US forces don't do this to their warriors, and there's no excuse for the UK Armed Forces to do it to you. I salute you.
I wish you every success in your battle with the blunties. I did the Gulf War, and it was mind boggling the amount of Rear Echelon Mother Fu <transfer interrupted> that ended up in theatre doing SLJ's. Save billions by closing the MOD, High Wycombe, and shooting anyone without a brevet.
I know know why I left. It's not brilliant out here, but I don't have to put up with that CRA? and neither should you. The US forces don't do this to their warriors, and there's no excuse for the UK Armed Forces to do it to you. I salute you.
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<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/selby/story/0,7369,631354,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/selby/story/0,7369,631354,00.html</a>
"You either actually knew or could be expected to have known from feelings of sleepiness that you were experiencing that you were at risk of falling asleep and, notwithstanding that, you carried on."
"You either actually knew or could be expected to have known from feelings of sleepiness that you were experiencing that you were at risk of falling asleep and, notwithstanding that, you carried on."
Oldgit47
You may be interested to know that they are pulling the 'seven days in theatre before you can get a phone card' gag here in Southern Oman ****hole aswell. Here, however, they have decreed that you are then entitled to LOA if you are transitting.....regulations say so....which means the precedent has been set. I've got a month of'nights' to track the copy down.
You'll like this one...trekking around camp 'arriving' went to all the sections for the important stamp, couldn't get into the Deployed Admin Group because they had closed for lunch!!!
You may be interested to know that they are pulling the 'seven days in theatre before you can get a phone card' gag here in Southern Oman ****hole aswell. Here, however, they have decreed that you are then entitled to LOA if you are transitting.....regulations say so....which means the precedent has been set. I've got a month of'nights' to track the copy down.
You'll like this one...trekking around camp 'arriving' went to all the sections for the important stamp, couldn't get into the Deployed Admin Group because they had closed for lunch!!!
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Its Ok the admin people are on our side!!! they did bust a gut to get the gennie fixed in 1 of the BFOT's only took them 5 days before it was sorted out!!!!! whoever sorted out that contract was obviously thinking about saving money, the unit that was working in the tent next door was running at 5% of its total output!!! could have run the whole bloody camp in fact.
Not whinging tho! the job still got done and there are people still living in worse accom! so think myself lucky really. As for crew rest didnt worry anybody about having a fire drill when crews are sposed to be sleeping, then again it sounded like an air raid siren not a fire bell so stayed in bed anyhow!!! put my tin hat and resp on tho so i was safe!!!
Had a bloody good time when can i go again?
Not whinging tho! the job still got done and there are people still living in worse accom! so think myself lucky really. As for crew rest didnt worry anybody about having a fire drill when crews are sposed to be sleeping, then again it sounded like an air raid siren not a fire bell so stayed in bed anyhow!!! put my tin hat and resp on tho so i was safe!!!
Had a bloody good time when can i go again?
