BBMF Giving Hurricane LF363 to India
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bobstuck
There has been some serious knee-jerk reactions and misinformed opinion on this thread. I speak with some authority when I state that this aircraft swap has not yet been given the official go-ahead (it sits at the highest levels at present). If the decision to go ahead is granted, the BBMF will not lose Hurricane LF363 until the replacement Hurricane Mk1 refurbishment to airworthy standard is complete (paid for by the Indian Air Force) and the BBMF has a 'flyer'. (The BBMF cannot operate effectively with only one Hurricane). In return the Indian Air Force get a MkIIC Hurricane of the type that they operated during WWII. The BBMF get a genuine BofB veteran Hurricane in airworthy condition to fly alongside the only BofB Spitfire still flying (P7350). It's a no-brainer! Fingers crossed it all works out.
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Jacko, how do you know it was his first post - and don't give me the obvious answer.
Whilst the deal to swop LF has some merit, both aircraft are part of the RAF's heritage from WW2 - neither have the same relevance to any other country. Is the Indian Hurri for sale?
This swop should not be the RAF's decision or the MOD's - like the EC Constitution the British public should be consulted.
Whilst the deal to swop LF has some merit, both aircraft are part of the RAF's heritage from WW2 - neither have the same relevance to any other country. Is the Indian Hurri for sale?
This swop should not be the RAF's decision or the MOD's - like the EC Constitution the British public should be consulted.
The Historic Aircraft Committee should certainly not be allowed to make the decision after the Beverley/B(I)8/Insert favoured cock-up here.
But the "Great British Public" making the decision?
Genuine BoB Hurri exchanged for late war Hurri with less interesting history (and which may be entirely new build, apart from the dataplate and a few parts), but which is more interesting to India?
Isn't that quite a good deal?
But the "Great British Public" making the decision?
Genuine BoB Hurri exchanged for late war Hurri with less interesting history (and which may be entirely new build, apart from the dataplate and a few parts), but which is more interesting to India?
Isn't that quite a good deal?
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It would be an interesting deal if you intended to put the Hurricane MK.I straight into a museum. However to restore her to flying condition you could well replace 80% of her tubes -all of her woodwork -engine and sundry other parts . You then risk a 'genuine' BoB Hurricane in the air when you could do put a machine like the Manston Hurricane II back in the air instead which has a far lesser history but would look virtually identical to the MK.I
There has been some serious knee-jerk reactions and misinformed opinion on this thread.
This story has been in the public domain for days now and there has been no "official" comment about a reported "swap" of historic aircraft. Surely it had to be patently obvious that such an emotive issue as the BBMF is of high importance to military flying enthusiasts such as on here and many other similar websites? Nothing had appeared on the BBMF website or from RAF sources. The PR Dept had obviously been caught asleep on the job and still haven't put out an official version.
Now we know from your statement that the swap will not happen until the Indian Hurricane is airworthy at the cost of the Indian Air Force. That allays many of our concerns, but the fact remains that there are aircraft which are of historic importance to this Country and more should be here, not the same number or less.
Despite the best will and care, inevitably some of these airframes are going to either meet with an accident or need extensive down time to maintain them in flying condition. The more airframes to spread the load, the longer they may continue to fly, performing as star attractions wherever they appear, whether Air Shows or Remembrance ceremonies.
That's my underlying concern, having to face a time when we WON''T have a Lancaster, Spitfire or Hurricane flying. I don't see a Dakota or Chipmunk as having anything like the emotive pull (even if re-engined with Merlins just to keep the sound alive!!).
Perhaps it is time for a complete re think as to what airframes need to be retained in flying condition and to find means of ensuring they stay that way.
Riley Dove raises an interesting point.
Even if we accept that it's a good idea to fly the rarer warbird types, should we fly the most historic examples? A Battle of Britain Spitfire, for example, rather than a PRXIX or a non operational Mark IX?
How many of the 'punters' know or care about the difference?
If we had Guy Gibson's Dambusting Lanc should it be flown, or kept safe in a museum?
I don't have a firm opinion either way, personally.
Even if we accept that it's a good idea to fly the rarer warbird types, should we fly the most historic examples? A Battle of Britain Spitfire, for example, rather than a PRXIX or a non operational Mark IX?
How many of the 'punters' know or care about the difference?
If we had Guy Gibson's Dambusting Lanc should it be flown, or kept safe in a museum?
I don't have a firm opinion either way, personally.
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According to FlyPast, there were 4 Hurricanes at that meet.
Some posts here are remenisant of a child wanting all of the toys and not sharing. If the Indian Hurri is restored before we send ours abroad then the public will not lose out, it will gain a better airframe, a more modern restoration, far better history and the world gains another airframe. Any hint that the Indians will not look after the airframe speaks of an underlying personal attitude, not knowledge.
England did not win WW2 alone, it was a a massive effort from many countries. Why should we keep all of the trophies?
If the deal is as good as Bobstuck alludes to then some people need to grow up.
Some posts here are remenisant of a child wanting all of the toys and not sharing. If the Indian Hurri is restored before we send ours abroad then the public will not lose out, it will gain a better airframe, a more modern restoration, far better history and the world gains another airframe. Any hint that the Indians will not look after the airframe speaks of an underlying personal attitude, not knowledge.
England did not win WW2 alone, it was a a massive effort from many countries. Why should we keep all of the trophies?
If the deal is as good as Bobstuck alludes to then some people need to grow up.
Indeed.
By the time LF363 was delivered, the Hurricane was an unimportant 'used to be' for the RAF. We'd be gaining an example of the Hurricane from when the aircraft was really vitally important to our national survival, and India would be getting an example of the Hurricane that was more relevant to them.
Win-win, surely?
By the time LF363 was delivered, the Hurricane was an unimportant 'used to be' for the RAF. We'd be gaining an example of the Hurricane from when the aircraft was really vitally important to our national survival, and India would be getting an example of the Hurricane that was more relevant to them.
Win-win, surely?
Originally Posted by Jackonicko
If we had Guy Gibson's Dambusting Lanc should it be flown, or kept safe in a museum?
I'm obviously in the minority in thinking that this will now turn the BBMF into a civilian trade a plane warbird organisation rather than a respector of it's heritage. And 65 years of it's RAF service and AVM Vincents personal crusade in saving LF that eventually ended up with the creation of the 'Flight' ten years later is worth more than going all goggle-eyed over a foreign manufactured aircraft that had such a short RAF career...whether that's the Battle of Britain or not.
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No comments have been made on the great effort that has been made by the IAF to the world population of historic airframes.
For example the majority of original B24 population came from airframes saved from the junkyards of their country.
Even more examples of rare british airplanes have been made available from India over the years and the history of aircraft has been enriched by the movement of aircraft from India often with no trade forthcoming.
At the end of the day the aviation world is a little richer and what is far more important that an extension of time has been given, to the sound and viewing of an aircraft type which can only get rarer as time moves on.
The move by the IAF to continue to allow these aircraft to be flown and viewed is a great addition to aviation history in general.
Let us also not forget that IAF crews, lived and served often far from home, so that we too enjoiy the freedom we enjoy.
This situation looks like a good win win situation to all involved.
Regards
Col
For example the majority of original B24 population came from airframes saved from the junkyards of their country.
Even more examples of rare british airplanes have been made available from India over the years and the history of aircraft has been enriched by the movement of aircraft from India often with no trade forthcoming.
At the end of the day the aviation world is a little richer and what is far more important that an extension of time has been given, to the sound and viewing of an aircraft type which can only get rarer as time moves on.
The move by the IAF to continue to allow these aircraft to be flown and viewed is a great addition to aviation history in general.
Let us also not forget that IAF crews, lived and served often far from home, so that we too enjoiy the freedom we enjoy.
This situation looks like a good win win situation to all involved.
Regards
Col
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The true story of P7350 is that it was indeed a Battle of Britain Spitfire and flew with 266 Squadron. One pilot at the time was Sqn Ldr Tubby Mermegan.
It was rebuilt following a major accident and at the end of the war was flown into a MU at RAF Colerne near Bath along with hundreds of other aircraft.
The scap metal dealers who's name escapes me but were from Collingdale near London, recognised it as a Bof B aircraft and gave it back to the RAF who were reportedly rather reluctant to accept it. It would otherwise have been broken up/melted down for scrap.
It remained, unloved at the back of one of the blister hangars and eventually got dragged out into the open air for RAF open days. The MU then added a Heinkel 162, Me163 and a Meteor 4 that had just got overlooked and the four were dragged out once more in 1964 for the RAF at home day.
An enterprising young co-pilot on Hastings aircraft then managed to collect many other aircraft including a Hurricane 11C, Sea Fury, etc and formed a museum.
In 1966 or so he received a 'phone call from some people who wanted to know what state it was in as they were prepared to rebuild it for some film that was being shot. After which it would be given to the BofB flight.
So...it was by pure chance that a real Bof B aircraft had been saved for the Nation and we have an unknown scrap metal firm's foreman to thank not the
RAF!
It was rebuilt following a major accident and at the end of the war was flown into a MU at RAF Colerne near Bath along with hundreds of other aircraft.
The scap metal dealers who's name escapes me but were from Collingdale near London, recognised it as a Bof B aircraft and gave it back to the RAF who were reportedly rather reluctant to accept it. It would otherwise have been broken up/melted down for scrap.
It remained, unloved at the back of one of the blister hangars and eventually got dragged out into the open air for RAF open days. The MU then added a Heinkel 162, Me163 and a Meteor 4 that had just got overlooked and the four were dragged out once more in 1964 for the RAF at home day.
An enterprising young co-pilot on Hastings aircraft then managed to collect many other aircraft including a Hurricane 11C, Sea Fury, etc and formed a museum.
In 1966 or so he received a 'phone call from some people who wanted to know what state it was in as they were prepared to rebuild it for some film that was being shot. After which it would be given to the BofB flight.
So...it was by pure chance that a real Bof B aircraft had been saved for the Nation and we have an unknown scrap metal firm's foreman to thank not the
RAF!
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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If the Indian Hurri is restored before we send ours abroad then the public will not lose out, it will gain a better airframe, a more modern restoration, far better history and the world gains another airframe.
Victor B1a
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A Hurri for India.
To all,
As Winston has put it on paper one must read history carefuly prior to making comment.
I have had the pleasure of failing a final handling test on the Gnat with a guy who hacked F-86s up Punjab way. Not bad I would say.(passed second time around.)
Given the hard work and sacrifice of all the people who have tried to keep the planet safe I would offer the thought that there is no better place for this aircraft.
Read some history folks and get a grip on what has happened on this planet.
Sleep tight tonight.
B1a
As Winston has put it on paper one must read history carefuly prior to making comment.
I have had the pleasure of failing a final handling test on the Gnat with a guy who hacked F-86s up Punjab way. Not bad I would say.(passed second time around.)
Given the hard work and sacrifice of all the people who have tried to keep the planet safe I would offer the thought that there is no better place for this aircraft.
Read some history folks and get a grip on what has happened on this planet.
Sleep tight tonight.
B1a
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Hurricane's, well we have a small few of them in the air and enthusiasts in the UK can see them in their natural element if they wish.
But page 6 of the latest Flypast tells of a more worrying loss.
Supermarine Walrus W2718 is in Essex for fabric covering, once finished and with a bit more work, it will be ready for flight.
It will then head to the US.
Surely it should remain here as part of the BoB flight thanks to it's services in saving many pilots lives in WW2.
I am not sure but I do not think the UK has a flying Walrus, and if this goes beyond our circuit then surely this is more serious.
But page 6 of the latest Flypast tells of a more worrying loss.
Supermarine Walrus W2718 is in Essex for fabric covering, once finished and with a bit more work, it will be ready for flight.
It will then head to the US.
Surely it should remain here as part of the BoB flight thanks to it's services in saving many pilots lives in WW2.
I am not sure but I do not think the UK has a flying Walrus, and if this goes beyond our circuit then surely this is more serious.
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In this age it amazes me that we are leeching our meagre resourses to support the BBMF - it was over 60 years ago; let us move on! Yes it saved the nation, however, we are mortgaging capability now to keep this out moded memory alive!! What next! - a memorial to the cold war!! Oh yes I forgot we have an airworthy Vulcan - genius!!
Let us plough our resourses into keeping the campaign in Afg on an even keel and if there is any money left over, then the non-life saving ideas can come to the fore.
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Let us plough our resourses into keeping the campaign in Afg on an even keel and if there is any money left over, then the non-life saving ideas can come to the fore.
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