SA fast jet drivers
Plastic PPRuNer
Thread Starter
SA fast jet drivers
South Africa is buying 24 Hawk trainers and 28 Gripen fighter aircraft. Can you mil. chaps tell me:
1) How many fast jet drivers you would need for this little lot.
2) How many you'd have to train in order to get to that figure.
3) How many fast jet drivers SA currently has.
"The loan facilities are for UK£390,2-million for the trainers, and UK£305,2-million, US$461,6-million and 6,43-billion Swedish kroner for the fighter aircraft."
I presume the big guys realise that there is rather more to having an air arm than buying aircraft. Will they need to recruit pilots abroad initially? Will there be enough local guys who qualify for fast jet training? Entry qualifications are obviously strict and that there must be a dropout rate. Have we bitten off more than we can chew?
Comments appreciated.
1) How many fast jet drivers you would need for this little lot.
2) How many you'd have to train in order to get to that figure.
3) How many fast jet drivers SA currently has.
"The loan facilities are for UK£390,2-million for the trainers, and UK£305,2-million, US$461,6-million and 6,43-billion Swedish kroner for the fighter aircraft."
I presume the big guys realise that there is rather more to having an air arm than buying aircraft. Will they need to recruit pilots abroad initially? Will there be enough local guys who qualify for fast jet training? Entry qualifications are obviously strict and that there must be a dropout rate. Have we bitten off more than we can chew?
Comments appreciated.
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SA used to have, 10 years ago and before, an Air Force much bigger than that (roughly 80 fighters, and another 100 of trainers)
But there was a threat, and it was a different country
Now...
In your numbers of Hawk and Gripen you counted also the options - what has been founded yet is much lower
But there was a threat, and it was a different country
Now...
In your numbers of Hawk and Gripen you counted also the options - what has been founded yet is much lower
Even if all the Gripens and Hawks are delivered, they will represent a smaller FJ force than S Africa currently has (30-odd Cheetah Cs and Ds and loads of Impalas).
But the question's a good one, 'cos they don't have enough pilots for them either. Presumably that's what the Hawks are for?
My understanding is that educational standards in South Africa are as high as anywhere on the continent, and improving, so I would have thought that the question "Will there be enough local guys who qualify for fast jet training?" is coming dangerously close (however unwittingly) to racism.
But the question's a good one, 'cos they don't have enough pilots for them either. Presumably that's what the Hawks are for?
My understanding is that educational standards in South Africa are as high as anywhere on the continent, and improving, so I would have thought that the question "Will there be enough local guys who qualify for fast jet training?" is coming dangerously close (however unwittingly) to racism.
Plastic PPRuNer
Thread Starter
JN - I was hoping for your input, thanks.
But your comment about racism is most peculiar.
You seem to be implying that only non-white South Africans will be considered for training. Do you know something that I don't?
But your comment about racism is most peculiar.
You seem to be implying that only non-white South Africans will be considered for training. Do you know something that I don't?
Ah, sorry, misunderstandings all round, I thought you might be implying that there wouldn't be enough Boers and Anglos to meet the requirement. I think that there would be, even without the growing pool of coloured and black talent.
Where you'll have problems is in the middle-ranking officer bracket, I fear, where so many of today's young JOs have fled to the airlines.
Where you'll have problems is in the middle-ranking officer bracket, I fear, where so many of today's young JOs have fled to the airlines.
Plastic PPRuNer
Thread Starter
Thanks for the clarification and reassurance JN.
I've reviewed my initial post and for the life of me I can't see anything that even remotely refers to race. Personally I don't give a sh!t whether the boys and girls are black, white, brown, yellow or gay pink so long as they conform to international standards and there are enough of them to fly this very expensive hardware. We are a multiracial nation, so you can choose between Zulu, Ndebele, Northern Sotho, English, Tswana, Chinese, Venda, Swati, Xhosa, Africaans, Malay, Tsonga, Coloured, Indian and South Sotho.
Could we get back to my initial questions? Supposing as Claw says, we get 9 Gripens and 12 Hawks
1) How many fast jet drivers you would need for this little lot.
2) How many you'd have to train in order to get to that figure.
3) What are the normal entry requirements? How long does training take?
4) How easy is it to convert from Cheetah to Gripen?
What is the dropout rate in fast jet training after acceptance (excluding carrier ops.)?
There are supposed to be 30 "utility" helicopters too. Do the training requirements differ significantly?
I've reviewed my initial post and for the life of me I can't see anything that even remotely refers to race. Personally I don't give a sh!t whether the boys and girls are black, white, brown, yellow or gay pink so long as they conform to international standards and there are enough of them to fly this very expensive hardware. We are a multiracial nation, so you can choose between Zulu, Ndebele, Northern Sotho, English, Tswana, Chinese, Venda, Swati, Xhosa, Africaans, Malay, Tsonga, Coloured, Indian and South Sotho.
Could we get back to my initial questions? Supposing as Claw says, we get 9 Gripens and 12 Hawks
1) How many fast jet drivers you would need for this little lot.
2) How many you'd have to train in order to get to that figure.
3) What are the normal entry requirements? How long does training take?
4) How easy is it to convert from Cheetah to Gripen?
What is the dropout rate in fast jet training after acceptance (excluding carrier ops.)?
There are supposed to be 30 "utility" helicopters too. Do the training requirements differ significantly?
I believe that the eventual total of aircraft delivered will be way more than nine Gripens. This first batch are the OCU jets, effectively.
1) Both Gripen and LIFT Hawk are very serviceable aircraft, so you might want quite a high manning level at the frontline. Say 1.8 per jet for the Gripen, and 1.5 for the Hawks (will be flown solo by studes some of the time). Then you need to factor in likely wastage through PVR, and the requirement to have aircrew officers doing other vital jobs. Not knowing anything about how the SADF organises this - but suspecting that the non-flying posts are quite numerous, with some duplication to ensure Anglo- and Afrikaans representation eg on the Flight Safety team - you might require a significant number of spare Gripen-trained bods.
2) How many you'd have to train in order to get to that figure is difficult. With the airline crisis and the lure of nice new shiny toys, I imagine that retention by the Flying Cheetahs (No.2 Squadron) will be pretty healthy, so the immediate requirement for fresh talent may be quite low.
3) What are the normal entry requirements? Degree level calibre sort of chaps (not necessarily degree holding, though)? How long does training take? As long as you want - if you run a ***** system with lots of unproductive holding you can stretch it out for years. Alternatively, and with SA's flying weather, it ought to be achievable inside two years.
4) How easy is it to convert from Cheetah to Gripen? If some-one can hack the Cheetah, they'll hack the Gripen, so wastage should be negligible, and conversion should be a matter of a fairly short course, like Tornado to Eurofighter.
5) Wastage rates are hugely variable, and are related to the efficacy and effort put into selection, screening and training, and to flying continuity, quality of instruction, etc. It's too variable for a UK journo to make an educated guess for the SA context.
6) Yes and no.
1) Both Gripen and LIFT Hawk are very serviceable aircraft, so you might want quite a high manning level at the frontline. Say 1.8 per jet for the Gripen, and 1.5 for the Hawks (will be flown solo by studes some of the time). Then you need to factor in likely wastage through PVR, and the requirement to have aircrew officers doing other vital jobs. Not knowing anything about how the SADF organises this - but suspecting that the non-flying posts are quite numerous, with some duplication to ensure Anglo- and Afrikaans representation eg on the Flight Safety team - you might require a significant number of spare Gripen-trained bods.
2) How many you'd have to train in order to get to that figure is difficult. With the airline crisis and the lure of nice new shiny toys, I imagine that retention by the Flying Cheetahs (No.2 Squadron) will be pretty healthy, so the immediate requirement for fresh talent may be quite low.
3) What are the normal entry requirements? Degree level calibre sort of chaps (not necessarily degree holding, though)? How long does training take? As long as you want - if you run a ***** system with lots of unproductive holding you can stretch it out for years. Alternatively, and with SA's flying weather, it ought to be achievable inside two years.
4) How easy is it to convert from Cheetah to Gripen? If some-one can hack the Cheetah, they'll hack the Gripen, so wastage should be negligible, and conversion should be a matter of a fairly short course, like Tornado to Eurofighter.
5) Wastage rates are hugely variable, and are related to the efficacy and effort put into selection, screening and training, and to flying continuity, quality of instruction, etc. It's too variable for a UK journo to make an educated guess for the SA context.
6) Yes and no.
Mac, the Gripen figure should have been 9 two-seaters and 10 single seaters.(Oops...)
The last batch of Pupes to pass totalled 23, out of 2000+ applicants. The Gripen is probably easier to fly than the Cheetah C.
The SAAF has indicated that should it face further budget cuts, it would jeopardize its Fighter force and also create a pilot shortage.At the rate the Rand is falling, I personally see the Gripen figure falling. Possibly even replaced by second-hand aircraft such as the F-16. Thats my opinion.April 2002 will reveal more......
[ 08 December 2001: Message edited by: The Claw ]
The last batch of Pupes to pass totalled 23, out of 2000+ applicants. The Gripen is probably easier to fly than the Cheetah C.
The SAAF has indicated that should it face further budget cuts, it would jeopardize its Fighter force and also create a pilot shortage.At the rate the Rand is falling, I personally see the Gripen figure falling. Possibly even replaced by second-hand aircraft such as the F-16. Thats my opinion.April 2002 will reveal more......
[ 08 December 2001: Message edited by: The Claw ]
