Spotters jailed in Greece!
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Good point, Jackonicko; I certainly would not visit a Greek airbase under any circumstances, those guys are too damned unpredictable. The members of the group all knew Greece's history (or should have done) in dealing with perceived spying by spotters, and if they've been reckless, they sure have suffered now. If they acted by the rules, then they've suffered even more. It will be a very chastened bunch that do return, whenever that might be..............
A friend sent me this, that he'd been sent by the guy involved (sorry, don't know who he was).
I think that you will find that they have not been charged with "spying" or
"espionage" as such. If the Greek authorities are going the same way as they
did with me back in '88, they will be charged with being in posession of
classified information and photographs of military installations.
When I was in greece back in 1988, on arrival in Athens I had an interview
with a Colonel at the Greek defence HQ. I explained to him the hobby, showed
him books and photographs. He told me that taking photographs of Greek
military aircraft was forbidden, but looking at them from a public place was
OK.
I went from Athens to Elefsis/Megara/Tatoi/Volos/Larissa/Stefanavikion to
Thesaloniki without any problems and took no photographs but logged a lot.
On several occasions I was joined at the fence by guards who seemed
interested in my telescope and exchanging cigarettes, nothing else! At
Thesaloniki I took three photographs, two were in the aeroclub museum of the
F86 and C47 preserved there with the permission of the museum curator, and
one of an Ethiopian AF An.12 on the ramp. I was arrested the next day on the
viewing balcony.
At the trial (where I had no representation or translator), the photographs
were held up as evidence as in the background the hardened shelters could be
seen. This and my log book from the earlier base visits was enough to secure
my conviction.
The charge was translated in the press as "spying" or "espionage", but the
literal charge was of being in posession of classified information (the
contents of my log book) and the 3 photographs (even if none were of active
Greek aircraft).
The sentence was 14 months.
When the consular staff and lawyers returned from their Easter holiday (the
reason why I had no representation!), the allocated lawyer put in an appeal,
which was heard three and a half months later (very quick by Greek
standards!) at which the conviction was overturned and I was released.
Needless to say, there was no question of any compensation! Luckily, my
employers were very understanding and held my job for me.
Not wishing to put a gloomy note to the whole affair (any more than exists
already), but it would not surprise me if the current case goes very much
the same way. As Costas has already pointed out, nobody, especially the
Greek authorities, believe the Fab 14 to be spies. However, the fact that
the trial has been postponed a couple of times seems to indicate that they
are very unhappy with either the contents of some log books and/or
photographs. If there is somebody's reputation on the line you can bet your
bottom dollar that they will push for a conviction.
On a lighter note, whilst I was being questioned by two Greek MI guys, they
asked me why I was interested in Missiles as well as aircraft. When I told
them that I was not, they pointed out that I had put a rng around
Dekelia/Tatoi on my road map. This was where their missiles were based they
informed me! They then told me that I had the numbers of Hawk missiles in my
note book - this turned out to be RAF Hawks at the previous years Abingdon
BoB show!!
I think that you will find that they have not been charged with "spying" or
"espionage" as such. If the Greek authorities are going the same way as they
did with me back in '88, they will be charged with being in posession of
classified information and photographs of military installations.
When I was in greece back in 1988, on arrival in Athens I had an interview
with a Colonel at the Greek defence HQ. I explained to him the hobby, showed
him books and photographs. He told me that taking photographs of Greek
military aircraft was forbidden, but looking at them from a public place was
OK.
I went from Athens to Elefsis/Megara/Tatoi/Volos/Larissa/Stefanavikion to
Thesaloniki without any problems and took no photographs but logged a lot.
On several occasions I was joined at the fence by guards who seemed
interested in my telescope and exchanging cigarettes, nothing else! At
Thesaloniki I took three photographs, two were in the aeroclub museum of the
F86 and C47 preserved there with the permission of the museum curator, and
one of an Ethiopian AF An.12 on the ramp. I was arrested the next day on the
viewing balcony.
At the trial (where I had no representation or translator), the photographs
were held up as evidence as in the background the hardened shelters could be
seen. This and my log book from the earlier base visits was enough to secure
my conviction.
The charge was translated in the press as "spying" or "espionage", but the
literal charge was of being in posession of classified information (the
contents of my log book) and the 3 photographs (even if none were of active
Greek aircraft).
The sentence was 14 months.
When the consular staff and lawyers returned from their Easter holiday (the
reason why I had no representation!), the allocated lawyer put in an appeal,
which was heard three and a half months later (very quick by Greek
standards!) at which the conviction was overturned and I was released.
Needless to say, there was no question of any compensation! Luckily, my
employers were very understanding and held my job for me.
Not wishing to put a gloomy note to the whole affair (any more than exists
already), but it would not surprise me if the current case goes very much
the same way. As Costas has already pointed out, nobody, especially the
Greek authorities, believe the Fab 14 to be spies. However, the fact that
the trial has been postponed a couple of times seems to indicate that they
are very unhappy with either the contents of some log books and/or
photographs. If there is somebody's reputation on the line you can bet your
bottom dollar that they will push for a conviction.
On a lighter note, whilst I was being questioned by two Greek MI guys, they
asked me why I was interested in Missiles as well as aircraft. When I told
them that I was not, they pointed out that I had put a rng around
Dekelia/Tatoi on my road map. This was where their missiles were based they
informed me! They then told me that I had the numbers of Hawk missiles in my
note book - this turned out to be RAF Hawks at the previous years Abingdon
BoB show!!
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Chaps,
As an aviation enthusiast (i.e a photographer, not a 'number cruncher')it was with concern I heard about these guys (and lady). Leaving personalities aside, we should not forget that these are presumably British Citizens who have been detained doing something they no doubt thought they had permission to do.
Having been on another well known Operator's tour of the USA last October (Hi Alan!), I was very impressed as to the opportunities and courtesy extended to us, but I do think the majority of 'Enthusiasts' have the sense to know when not to push their luck. Clearly there are one or two individuals who are too stupid to realise the risks they take, but I do not think we should tar them all with the same brush.
I certainly though will think twice about trying to watch any aircraft in Greece (Hmmm....funny, the Greek aircrew were quite happy to let my friend photograph both cockpits of their Mirage 2000 at Waddie this year...!!)next time I'm there! As to whoever suggested forfeiture of all their kit, can I point out that the photographic equipment I have amassed over the years through frankly hard bloody slog amoounts to a few bobs worth and I would not be happy to let it go on the whim of some contradictory Greek authority.
As I said at the start, I expect these guys thought they had the permission to do what they were doing in the same way we did in the States last year. Lets just hope that enough political pressure is brought to bear (Tony, are you listening....??) for common sense to prevail for these guys to be sent home with a flea in their ear and their equipment (maybe minus film) intact.
After all, there but for the grace of god etc...
As an aviation enthusiast (i.e a photographer, not a 'number cruncher')it was with concern I heard about these guys (and lady). Leaving personalities aside, we should not forget that these are presumably British Citizens who have been detained doing something they no doubt thought they had permission to do.
Having been on another well known Operator's tour of the USA last October (Hi Alan!), I was very impressed as to the opportunities and courtesy extended to us, but I do think the majority of 'Enthusiasts' have the sense to know when not to push their luck. Clearly there are one or two individuals who are too stupid to realise the risks they take, but I do not think we should tar them all with the same brush.
I certainly though will think twice about trying to watch any aircraft in Greece (Hmmm....funny, the Greek aircrew were quite happy to let my friend photograph both cockpits of their Mirage 2000 at Waddie this year...!!)next time I'm there! As to whoever suggested forfeiture of all their kit, can I point out that the photographic equipment I have amassed over the years through frankly hard bloody slog amoounts to a few bobs worth and I would not be happy to let it go on the whim of some contradictory Greek authority.
As I said at the start, I expect these guys thought they had the permission to do what they were doing in the same way we did in the States last year. Lets just hope that enough political pressure is brought to bear (Tony, are you listening....??) for common sense to prevail for these guys to be sent home with a flea in their ear and their equipment (maybe minus film) intact.
After all, there but for the grace of god etc...
MotF
Closet spotter? How dare you, I've never even seen Mil Spotters......
OK, I did once try to subscribe (wanted to check what was being said about deployments when writing a piece about security) but wasn't allowed to - presumably 'cos I used Hotmail!
But at least I know where my mate Jimmy got the letter from, and can rib him accordingly!
I still think there's been some foolishness here, and believe that when we know the full facts, it may be that an element of punishment may be appropriate - at least for the organiser.
Closet spotter? How dare you, I've never even seen Mil Spotters......
OK, I did once try to subscribe (wanted to check what was being said about deployments when writing a piece about security) but wasn't allowed to - presumably 'cos I used Hotmail!
But at least I know where my mate Jimmy got the letter from, and can rib him accordingly!
I still think there's been some foolishness here, and believe that when we know the full facts, it may be that an element of punishment may be appropriate - at least for the organiser.
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Jacko
I am inclined to agree with you
Speaking as a spotter/photographer (well some of the time - and no I dont own an anorak) I have always known Greece is a no-no cause you get pulled by the beak.
The organisers of this group have a rapidly growing reputation for recklessness even before this happened. Add that to their steadfast refusal to stop publishing movements at US bases in this country even at a time of heightened security and the comments on the website and it appears theirs was a accident waiting to happen.
Its sad and I hope they do get out...I just cant see it happening soon.
I have also just heard that they have been formaly charged with espionage..It doesn't look good
I am inclined to agree with you
Speaking as a spotter/photographer (well some of the time - and no I dont own an anorak) I have always known Greece is a no-no cause you get pulled by the beak.
The organisers of this group have a rapidly growing reputation for recklessness even before this happened. Add that to their steadfast refusal to stop publishing movements at US bases in this country even at a time of heightened security and the comments on the website and it appears theirs was a accident waiting to happen.
Its sad and I hope they do get out...I just cant see it happening soon.
I have also just heard that they have been formaly charged with espionage..It doesn't look good
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MOTF, Jacko,
I agree with you both, all I am trying to say is that I dont think any self respecting enthusiast would EVER do anything that would compromise the security or safety of any aircrew by way of so called 'Espionage'.
If anyone does (and by the sound of it Touchdown have been pretty stupid in continuing to publish base movements in the current climate), then they deserve all they get and hell, I'll even hold the step ladder when you're stringing them up!
The point I am trying to make, is that there is espionage and then there is getting carried away. I think what they did clearly comes into the later and should not be confused with a deliberate attempt to undermine a country's defences. Hell, what have Greece got that is so damn special anyway...??
I agree with you both, all I am trying to say is that I dont think any self respecting enthusiast would EVER do anything that would compromise the security or safety of any aircrew by way of so called 'Espionage'.
If anyone does (and by the sound of it Touchdown have been pretty stupid in continuing to publish base movements in the current climate), then they deserve all they get and hell, I'll even hold the step ladder when you're stringing them up!
The point I am trying to make, is that there is espionage and then there is getting carried away. I think what they did clearly comes into the later and should not be confused with a deliberate attempt to undermine a country's defences. Hell, what have Greece got that is so damn special anyway...??
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Well, the latest is they're still held, whilst the Greek judge considers evidence from "experts" who have looked at films and notebooks. Could return to court on Friday, but going on past performance, it could drag on.
I've a feeling that this is going to hit the news in a big way now
I've a feeling that this is going to hit the news in a big way now
Well actually the latest is that they face fresh charges, the Greeks having discovered photos and notebook entries indicating that they'd previously gone to and been naught at an airbase for which they had no permission at all.
Ooooops!
Hope they like Taramasalata and *******.....
Ooooops!
Hope they like Taramasalata and *******.....
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It's developing all the time, Jacko...the group's lawyer seems to be of the opinion that individual charges may be on the cards.
Not an ideal situation, as it could mean that certain members of the group go free, and others stay behind, but for those who have genuinely done nothing untoward, possibly some good news.
I personally would like them all to be released, they have already been punished to a far greater extent than they would have been in any other EC or NATO member state (Except perhaps Turkey
)
Further punishment in the UK by way of being ostracised (ouch!) by the rest of the enthusiasts' community would surely follow.
But if it's a case of 'some or none' then for the benefit of the families of any of the group who can prove that they did not misbehave, maybe it's a move to be accepted.
Not an ideal situation, as it could mean that certain members of the group go free, and others stay behind, but for those who have genuinely done nothing untoward, possibly some good news.
I personally would like them all to be released, they have already been punished to a far greater extent than they would have been in any other EC or NATO member state (Except perhaps Turkey
) Further punishment in the UK by way of being ostracised (ouch!) by the rest of the enthusiasts' community would surely follow.
But if it's a case of 'some or none' then for the benefit of the families of any of the group who can prove that they did not misbehave, maybe it's a move to be accepted.
Nopax
I believe that the organiser may have been criminally stupid and irresponsible. I see no problem in him facing the full weight of the Greek law, which should perhaps also fall on those who encouraged him to 'push it'. People like this are giving aviation enthusiasts a bad name, and perhaps it's high time for a 'lesson'. Anyone on the tour who didn't question what he was doing and failed to object to where he was taking them were simply stupid, however, and I hope that their ordeal is over soon.
D
Of course they have aircraft, and I'll thank you not to trivialise this important thread with ill-placed humour. The Greeks have a legitimate reason for not liking people taking photos of their aircraft, since by doing so, any enemy might see what sort of wax they use to stick the feathers on - and it is a new formulation since Pilot Officer Icarus's unfortunate Cat 5.......
I believe that the organiser may have been criminally stupid and irresponsible. I see no problem in him facing the full weight of the Greek law, which should perhaps also fall on those who encouraged him to 'push it'. People like this are giving aviation enthusiasts a bad name, and perhaps it's high time for a 'lesson'. Anyone on the tour who didn't question what he was doing and failed to object to where he was taking them were simply stupid, however, and I hope that their ordeal is over soon.
D
Of course they have aircraft, and I'll thank you not to trivialise this important thread with ill-placed humour. The Greeks have a legitimate reason for not liking people taking photos of their aircraft, since by doing so, any enemy might see what sort of wax they use to stick the feathers on - and it is a new formulation since Pilot Officer Icarus's unfortunate Cat 5.......
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I'm inclined to agree with you, Jacko...from talking to those who have been in direct contact with one of the detainees last night,any of the party who are convinced that they can prove they have done no wrong according to the agreement that was in place with the authorities now believe that individual charges are in order, and they will come home, leaving the rest behind.
It seems the original lawyer (who spoke no English!?!?!?) Advised the group, presumably via an interpreter, that a combined plea of innocence was the way to go. This has now been re-considered, but of course it all takes loads of time, given the laborious legal process out there.
I only know one of the party personally, and we're all hoping now that he's got no case to answer. Perhaps it's selfish to separate away from the rest and say "it wasn't me" but then again, if one or more members of the group acted rashly in the face of known intolerance by the Greeks, it was selfish of them to put the whole tour at risk.
Such is life, I suppose; I'm just hoping for a good result very soon, there's been nothing but disappointment so far.
It seems the original lawyer (who spoke no English!?!?!?) Advised the group, presumably via an interpreter, that a combined plea of innocence was the way to go. This has now been re-considered, but of course it all takes loads of time, given the laborious legal process out there.
I only know one of the party personally, and we're all hoping now that he's got no case to answer. Perhaps it's selfish to separate away from the rest and say "it wasn't me" but then again, if one or more members of the group acted rashly in the face of known intolerance by the Greeks, it was selfish of them to put the whole tour at risk.
Such is life, I suppose; I'm just hoping for a good result very soon, there's been nothing but disappointment so far.
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Although I am a pro-European, this kind of thing points up the fact that Europe can only stretch so far. Greece and Turkey are part of Europe in name only, and some of the future EC members are even less credible.
What's the Greek word for Human Rights?
What's the Greek word for Human Rights?
If reports that they went out looking for and photographing the Greek's new Erieye AEW aircraft are correct, then I'm not surprised that they were arrested. Wonder how we'd deal with a load of Balkan spotters trying the same with No.51 Squadron's Nimrods, or No.39's Canberras, or whatever, or foreign demonstrators at Faslane? We might not lock them up, but the French certainly would.
We all know that the Greeks and Turks are a bit paranoid about security - any sensible human would take account of this when planning their activities - rather than whingeing about human rights after such a self-inflicted injury.
We all know that the Greeks and Turks are a bit paranoid about security - any sensible human would take account of this when planning their activities - rather than whingeing about human rights after such a self-inflicted injury.
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The whole story's getting rather confused - yesterday it was alleged that they had been to Megara, which is a Greek Army helicopter base - oops, I shouldn't know that; maybe I'm a spy as well
Anyhow, it also apperas that the tour had been shadowed by Greek secret services for several days, which could only mean that the itinerary which had been agreed with the authorites had been passed on to enable the shadowing to take place - so who's spying now, eh??????
Anyhow, looks like George Papandreaou is going to visit them in prison tomorrow, which should be a good sign. He's reportedly keen to get the matter cleared up soon, before we all cancel our trips to the sun next year...........
BTW, RIP Bee Beamont; a life well spent, I think. My dad's an ex-Lightning man, and knew him too.
Anyhow, it also apperas that the tour had been shadowed by Greek secret services for several days, which could only mean that the itinerary which had been agreed with the authorites had been passed on to enable the shadowing to take place - so who's spying now, eh??????
Anyhow, looks like George Papandreaou is going to visit them in prison tomorrow, which should be a good sign. He's reportedly keen to get the matter cleared up soon, before we all cancel our trips to the sun next year...........
BTW, RIP Bee Beamont; a life well spent, I think. My dad's an ex-Lightning man, and knew him too.
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Does seem a bit over the top, when you think people don't seem to be remmanded even for murder here now, they are just asked nicely, will you please attend court on such and such a date, and not to worry to much as a life sentence is only 8 years now anyway.
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Even if they do get banged up, at least they get a room with all home comforts. As I said earlier, I know one of the detainees, and he had to buy a plate from the prison shop, because they had two plates between four people in his cell!
Hey, nopax..maybe they can ask for a room that overlooks the runway.
Do you honestly believe that Jo Public is going to be banging on the door at Thomas Cook asking for refunds on next years trip to Crete, I think not.
Unless you are closely involved with the hobby, this news story is viewed as a bunch of anoraks getting arrested for the 'up market' version of train spotting. Please don't kid yourself that tourism will suffer one jot because of this.
On a personal note, I hope those who have no charges to answer are released asap. Those that do can expect no sympathy from me.
Do you honestly believe that Jo Public is going to be banging on the door at Thomas Cook asking for refunds on next years trip to Crete, I think not.
Unless you are closely involved with the hobby, this news story is viewed as a bunch of anoraks getting arrested for the 'up market' version of train spotting. Please don't kid yourself that tourism will suffer one jot because of this.
On a personal note, I hope those who have no charges to answer are released asap. Those that do can expect no sympathy from me.