aircrew retention latest
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Interestingly, the RAF Liaison Team was at our Station last week and discussed the subject of Aircrew Retention.
They did not let on what measures would be taken but did intimate that it should be something reasonable and that the Top Brass are aware of apalling lack of communication and explanation last time round.
The Liaison Team did mention that the overall PVR rate had gone down to around 4%, as opposed to the 10% of the early to mid 90's. However, when we quizzed them about the percentage of those aircrew leaving at options they had to get into the books.
On examination it appears that in the 1990's about 30 to 35% of aircrew left at an option point. For the last four years the figure has run at 60 to 65%!
If those figures don't imply that they need to get it right this time, then nothing does. Those posters on PPRuNe who love the expression "you should vote with your feet" may be interested to know that most aircrew are!! We may not be PVRing in droves, but clearly the majority are not being tempted to remain in beyond option points.
I trust that these facts and figures, generated for the benefit of our Lords and Masters, have actually been noted by our Lords and Masters?
We'll see come the day of the announcement.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
They did not let on what measures would be taken but did intimate that it should be something reasonable and that the Top Brass are aware of apalling lack of communication and explanation last time round.
The Liaison Team did mention that the overall PVR rate had gone down to around 4%, as opposed to the 10% of the early to mid 90's. However, when we quizzed them about the percentage of those aircrew leaving at options they had to get into the books.
On examination it appears that in the 1990's about 30 to 35% of aircrew left at an option point. For the last four years the figure has run at 60 to 65%!
If those figures don't imply that they need to get it right this time, then nothing does. Those posters on PPRuNe who love the expression "you should vote with your feet" may be interested to know that most aircrew are!! We may not be PVRing in droves, but clearly the majority are not being tempted to remain in beyond option points.
I trust that these facts and figures, generated for the benefit of our Lords and Masters, have actually been noted by our Lords and Masters?
We'll see come the day of the announcement.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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BEagle,
As one who knows a fair bit about MOL recruitment, I don't think that their Airships need worry too much about the pull of Ryanair, fancy starting as a FO on less than you'd make as a bus driver?
Suit...........
As one who knows a fair bit about MOL recruitment, I don't think that their Airships need worry too much about the pull of Ryanair, fancy starting as a FO on less than you'd make as a bus driver?
Suit...........
Ah, but my dear Suit - many mil mates would also have a wee pensionette to augment MoL's mediocre salaries........
And he'll have to compete with that nice Greek chap who looks rather (too much?) like Prince Andrew and who operates a fleet of orange 737s..... so he might have to settle for industry salaries eventually??
And he'll have to compete with that nice Greek chap who looks rather (too much?) like Prince Andrew and who operates a fleet of orange 737s..... so he might have to settle for industry salaries eventually??
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I hope that whilst the service as a whole benefits from a reasonable in line with inflation annual pay increase this year, I also hope the airships come to their senses over aircrew retention.. .Despite the abuse I received for my last posting, and the purile responses I stand by my views.
Aircrew are hardly leaving in droves at the moment, and conditions such as living in tents don't justify whopping pay increases. This is a military service and all on dets must suffer hardships - even us adminers. Navy types have to hot bunk on shift work. We need to keep aircrew in the service, for sure, but why extend the budget when they aren't leaving in sufficient quantities anyway; and also this is an unproven method that may not work.
Aircrew are hardly leaving in droves at the moment, and conditions such as living in tents don't justify whopping pay increases. This is a military service and all on dets must suffer hardships - even us adminers. Navy types have to hot bunk on shift work. We need to keep aircrew in the service, for sure, but why extend the budget when they aren't leaving in sufficient quantities anyway; and also this is an unproven method that may not work.
My blunt chum - did you pass English Language at 'O' Level? Because both your spelling and grammar are well below the standard one should reasonably expect from a career scribbly!
I'm sorry all but I'm going to have to take the Admin Guano bait again.
Think about what you just said. "Aircrew are hardly leaving in droves at the moment.." No, not at the moment, but in rare example of common sense, their airships seem to be thinking ahead to the moment (not too far off IMHO) when the airlines say "actually it's not all that bad, now where can we get some new pilots from?" and are making some effort to keep their most highly and expensively trained personnel in the Service.
Pilots don't leave because they have to sleep in tents (and the Navy doesn't have a pilot retention problem at all does it?), pilots leave because they are spending 7/8/9 months of the year away, in the arse end of the world, knowing they have the full support (NOT) of w*nkers like you back home.
You are a tw@t, Sir, of the highest order.
Think about what you just said. "Aircrew are hardly leaving in droves at the moment.." No, not at the moment, but in rare example of common sense, their airships seem to be thinking ahead to the moment (not too far off IMHO) when the airlines say "actually it's not all that bad, now where can we get some new pilots from?" and are making some effort to keep their most highly and expensively trained personnel in the Service.
Pilots don't leave because they have to sleep in tents (and the Navy doesn't have a pilot retention problem at all does it?), pilots leave because they are spending 7/8/9 months of the year away, in the arse end of the world, knowing they have the full support (NOT) of w*nkers like you back home.
You are a tw@t, Sir, of the highest order.
Thread Starter
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admin guru
i have not laughed as much for a long time. your post is cracking.
i have 2 theories, the first is that you set out to deliberately bait aircrew as a kind of hobby; a hobby at which you excel. the second is that you are a very high ranking airship yourself, as you are displaying the lack of logic and shortsightedness which, if it hasnt already, will guarantee promotion.
i refer the ill -informed wannabe to the fact that ryanair has announced it will be requiring 800 pilots for its shiny new fleet. although that does not offset the flying jobs lost as a result of 11/9 it is a significant improvement. consequently the exodus will soon resume.
can you refer me to the specific doc which states those on dets "MUST suffer hardship". wot if there's a better and cheaper way to do it that ensures a decent standard of living? like hotac?
ive got 2 words to say about your attitude...
...5 h 1 t e
. .edited after referral to profanisaurus
[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: uncle peter ]</p>
i have not laughed as much for a long time. your post is cracking.
i have 2 theories, the first is that you set out to deliberately bait aircrew as a kind of hobby; a hobby at which you excel. the second is that you are a very high ranking airship yourself, as you are displaying the lack of logic and shortsightedness which, if it hasnt already, will guarantee promotion.
i refer the ill -informed wannabe to the fact that ryanair has announced it will be requiring 800 pilots for its shiny new fleet. although that does not offset the flying jobs lost as a result of 11/9 it is a significant improvement. consequently the exodus will soon resume.
can you refer me to the specific doc which states those on dets "MUST suffer hardship". wot if there's a better and cheaper way to do it that ensures a decent standard of living? like hotac?
ive got 2 words to say about your attitude...
...5 h 1 t e
. .edited after referral to profanisaurus
[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: uncle peter ]</p>
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AG
Some points that may help amend your attitude.
Aircrew are not leaving in their droves...?
Maybe the facts have escaped your attention, then again, given your vast experience of the service maybe you don't know where to look. I commend the (widely available)DASA stats sheet, showing the shortfalls in the flying branches, to your attention.
Secondly, if the Air Force Board think there is a retention problem, isn't it perhaps possible that they have better information than you? Perhaps a look at some of the recent output from PMA would tell you that sustainment of the flying branches requires retention of 60% of aircrew at option points. It would also tell you that actual retention at option points is 40% and that the training system cannot make up the difference.
All of the information is readily available on every station - perhaps you ought to read it before venting your vitriol.
JB
Some points that may help amend your attitude.
Aircrew are not leaving in their droves...?
Maybe the facts have escaped your attention, then again, given your vast experience of the service maybe you don't know where to look. I commend the (widely available)DASA stats sheet, showing the shortfalls in the flying branches, to your attention.
Secondly, if the Air Force Board think there is a retention problem, isn't it perhaps possible that they have better information than you? Perhaps a look at some of the recent output from PMA would tell you that sustainment of the flying branches requires retention of 60% of aircrew at option points. It would also tell you that actual retention at option points is 40% and that the training system cannot make up the difference.
All of the information is readily available on every station - perhaps you ought to read it before venting your vitriol.
JB
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AG why oh why do you hate aircrew so much? Going on from that, if you hate them so much why on earth did you join the RAF? Your last poisonous posting was so totally ignorant of the facts it made me laugh- please at least pretend you know what you're on about in future. Oh and if you really are in the RAF then it may interest you to know that the adminners around here think you're a total arse and would like it known that they're not all like you.
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AG, please do us all a favour and p*ss off will you. Once again, you've defaced and devalued a ligitimate thread of interest to AIRCREW, on a military AIRCREW bulitin board.. . . .Are you really so insecure that you have to turn every topic into a forum on you?
Please, please leave us alone so we can discuss sensible issues, ask questions, and accept knowledge when offered, from informed, intellegent individuals.
Do other Ppruners agree that this fool should be treated with the contempt that he thoroughly deserves.....and ignore him?
To all other non aircrew contributers who often contribute valuble information and views, my rant is in no way aimed at you....
(edited for CRM!)
[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: Boot Scooter ]</p>
Please, please leave us alone so we can discuss sensible issues, ask questions, and accept knowledge when offered, from informed, intellegent individuals.
Do other Ppruners agree that this fool should be treated with the contempt that he thoroughly deserves.....and ignore him?
To all other non aircrew contributers who often contribute valuble information and views, my rant is in no way aimed at you....
(edited for CRM!)
[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: Boot Scooter ]</p>
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Maybe you should ignore AG and with a bit of luck he'll go away (some hope).
He really is only trying to wind things up - successfully it seems. Have you noticed that the last time he posted on his original thread was at some time during happy hour last week!
He just wants attention. Deny him the "Oxygen of Publicity" to quote a certain formidable lady of the last century.
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
He really is only trying to wind things up - successfully it seems. Have you noticed that the last time he posted on his original thread was at some time during happy hour last week!
He just wants attention. Deny him the "Oxygen of Publicity" to quote a certain formidable lady of the last century.
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
I think we all agree that Admin Guru (whatever the TW@T is) is way off the mark. I suggest that the X factor should be targetted. That way those who sit in their offices all the time get none of it and those who get dic*ked around by them get more!
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Interesting point. Last year the Liaison Board brought up the same issue about using the X Factor to Offset any bonuses paid to those spending time away. I am in favour of this to a certain extent; however, the X Factor includes other variables as well as time spent away (the high numbers of moves in a career, spouses having to give up employment, kids changing schools, etc etc).
Although this is a separate issue, I believe that all personnel who spend a lot of time detached away should get a descent allowance package - not just aircrew. Tac Comms Wg and the caterers are getting a real bashing at present. This, however, has nothing to do with the issue of Aircrew Retention.
AG would serve himself better if he actually read some of the posts before paining us all with his comments. Aircrew are not PVRing at the present - they are waiting until their options and leaving. As BEagle pointed out, the Ryan Air salary itself might not be up to much, but the addition of a pension helps enormously.
We hear a lot about the 'sacred cow' of 60 IPS to solve our problems in the training empire (In Productive Service, AG). What you also have to remember is that it might take 3 years and cost approximately £6 million to train a pilot (how much for an Admin Officer?), but how can you possibly put a price on 1000hrs+, 4-Ship Lead, QWI etc etc. These are the guys who are taking options and they cannot simply be replaced by an Ab Initio.
That, my unwise friend AG, is why the retention measures are required.
If you don't like working for aircrew then I am afraid that you have joined the wrong business.
It's never too late to learn though.
<img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Although this is a separate issue, I believe that all personnel who spend a lot of time detached away should get a descent allowance package - not just aircrew. Tac Comms Wg and the caterers are getting a real bashing at present. This, however, has nothing to do with the issue of Aircrew Retention.
AG would serve himself better if he actually read some of the posts before paining us all with his comments. Aircrew are not PVRing at the present - they are waiting until their options and leaving. As BEagle pointed out, the Ryan Air salary itself might not be up to much, but the addition of a pension helps enormously.
We hear a lot about the 'sacred cow' of 60 IPS to solve our problems in the training empire (In Productive Service, AG). What you also have to remember is that it might take 3 years and cost approximately £6 million to train a pilot (how much for an Admin Officer?), but how can you possibly put a price on 1000hrs+, 4-Ship Lead, QWI etc etc. These are the guys who are taking options and they cannot simply be replaced by an Ab Initio.
That, my unwise friend AG, is why the retention measures are required.
If you don't like working for aircrew then I am afraid that you have joined the wrong business.
It's never too late to learn though.
<img src="wink.gif" border="0">
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Ordinarily I'd advocate not feeding Trolls, but in AG's case as long as he can keep his ignorance so entertaining, I hope that he continues to vomit forth.
But I'm still suspicious that his views are so stereotyped. It is a bit like a Harrier mate coming on and saying that the rest of us are crap because we don't have nozzles. He is expressing cartoon-like views that no one in the air force with an emotional maturity greater than 15 actually holds. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Is this a wind up?
But I'm still suspicious that his views are so stereotyped. It is a bit like a Harrier mate coming on and saying that the rest of us are crap because we don't have nozzles. He is expressing cartoon-like views that no one in the air force with an emotional maturity greater than 15 actually holds. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Is this a wind up?
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Does anybody else find it interesting how, according to the Liaison Team, PVR rates always seem to drop just before major retention packages are announced. "Why should we give you a big pay rise when not many are leaving"??? IMHO it is manipulation of figures to Whitehall's advantage.
Does anybody know for sure that the package is for public release tomorrow? And if it is, can someone post it on here.
We're on det, and the chance of us getting accurate timely information is slim as ever! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
We're on det, and the chance of us getting accurate timely information is slim as ever! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
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The Aircrew Retention Package was released to the 'stars' as an advance notice earlier today.
The rest of us will find out at 1530 tomorrow in line with the AFPRB award details. The details are intended to be available on the net on the mod web sites from that moment.
All indications still appear positive.
Wait out...
The rest of us will find out at 1530 tomorrow in line with the AFPRB award details. The details are intended to be available on the net on the mod web sites from that moment.
All indications still appear positive.
Wait out...