How quick to get a Chinook
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How quick to get a Chinook
Not my usual habitat but was really annoyed by a chap on the radio (BBC Fivelive) from MOD Procurement who in a very patronising way said something along the lines of you can't just order a Chinook and expect to get it anytime soon. This was in respnse to a question asking if it would not be better to order new aircraft rather than the £406m upgrade just announced for existing airframes. So without breaching official secrets how long would it take to get a new one from the manafacturer or a used but good from the American military?
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You can't go and buy Chinooks off the shelf. Fact. Sorry to sound like I am taking sides but you seem to think there are Chinooks sat in a hangar ready for you to buy.
If you could get one, then expect no change from $40 Million per airframe. Also what spec would you like?
The Canadians started looking at buying CH47s in 2006 and it took 3 years to get the order placed.
The quote on wikipedia is "On August 10, 2009, Canada signed a contract to purchase 15 CH-47Fs for delivery in 2013-14"
I suppose you could always ask the Italians to tack a few more onto the ICH 47 order but again don't muck about with the spec!
If you could get one, then expect no change from $40 Million per airframe. Also what spec would you like?
The Canadians started looking at buying CH47s in 2006 and it took 3 years to get the order placed.
The quote on wikipedia is "On August 10, 2009, Canada signed a contract to purchase 15 CH-47Fs for delivery in 2013-14"
I suppose you could always ask the Italians to tack a few more onto the ICH 47 order but again don't muck about with the spec!
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Chinooks off the shelf
Sorry to sound like I am taking sides but you seem to think there are Chinooks sat in a hangar ready for you to buy.
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According to this site the Canadians did it in less than a year:
Further details here.
Wouldn't it be a good move to get US Army Chinnies, using the same route as the Canadians, and put them straight into the proposed upgrade programme and thus reducing the inevitable lack of frame availability as the mod programme goes on?
..a US Foreign Military Sale Notice was posted in April 2008 which resulted in the transfer to the CF Air Wing at Kandahar of 6 US Army CH-47Ds, arriving in Dec 2008 and expected to be fully operational in Feb 2009.
Further details here.
Wouldn't it be a good move to get US Army Chinnies, using the same route as the Canadians, and put them straight into the proposed upgrade programme and thus reducing the inevitable lack of frame availability as the mod programme goes on?
Qty 8 Mk3s ordered in 1994.
ISD - ?????
That procurement chap wasn't Quentin Davies MP was it ? He was on BBC news saying much the same thing, banging on about how they were spending money now, but also buying new aircraft. In addition to the above 8? I think a few cynics will be saying the money announced today is a long overdue Mk2 upgrade, planned many moons ago.
ISD - ?????
That procurement chap wasn't Quentin Davies MP was it ? He was on BBC news saying much the same thing, banging on about how they were spending money now, but also buying new aircraft. In addition to the above 8? I think a few cynics will be saying the money announced today is a long overdue Mk2 upgrade, planned many moons ago.
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That procurement chap wasn't Quentin Davies MP was it ?
Chinooks = Hospital beds
From talking to people at'the 'home of the Chinook', they are like hospital beds. Its not the lump of metal that's the issue, its all the support staff and facilities that go with it, to make more of them into usable entities that is lacking.
Even if you could walk into a Boeing Vertol showroom and pick up the keys to a shiny new Chinook, you would still need to recruit and train all the people needed to keep it in the air.
Some years ago, an article stated that on the then current information, the Chinook would be in service for 87 years before being completely phased out (albeit this was refering to service with the US military, who had a head start). Any guesses on today's estimate?
Even if you could walk into a Boeing Vertol showroom and pick up the keys to a shiny new Chinook, you would still need to recruit and train all the people needed to keep it in the air.
Some years ago, an article stated that on the then current information, the Chinook would be in service for 87 years before being completely phased out (albeit this was refering to service with the US military, who had a head start). Any guesses on today's estimate?
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Even if you could stroll down to the local Chinook dealer and buy one then it wouldn't have all the necessary extra equipment required to meet the theatre entry standard. My guess for the time would be a minimum of 3 years and more likely 5 years, assuming the US would let us jump the queue - which doesn't seem very likely.
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Its not the lump of metal that's the issue, its all the support staff and facilities that go with it, to make more of them into usable entities that is lacking.
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Not that I am a cynic, but the engines for the Chinooks were announced well over a month ago by Honeywell, so other than the bit about the Thales cockpits, it's not a particularly new announcement. What wasn't announced today in the MoD's press release, complete with its quote from Gp Capt Andy Turner recycled from the original Honeywell statement, is that the Chinooks won't start receiving the new engines and cockpits until next year with completion of the upgrades in something like 2016. I believe the first ones won't be available until 2011.
May god strike me down for saying so, but though he's a floor-crossing, professional politician and a Labour minister (three of my least favourite political types), Quentin Davies is, I think, sound.
He really seems to care about getting kit to the servicemen he is charged with serving, and seems to genuinely like and respect them. And though he can be evasive, and though he is infected by the culture of spin, he has a better handle on his brief than any other defence tasked Minister I've ever had to deal with, with the obvious exception of the VERY impressive Lord Drayson.
I spoke to him at RAF Odious today, I gave him as tough a time as I could, and I was pleased to shake his hand afterwards.
I wouldn't vote for him, but in a coalition government, he'd be one of the few Labour folk I'd consider keeping.
Mick, the new engines are already here, in small (and briefly decreasing) numbers. They were incorporated on a small number of cabs by UOR, and the mod has already started to be rolled out fleet wide. The cockpit will take longer.
He really seems to care about getting kit to the servicemen he is charged with serving, and seems to genuinely like and respect them. And though he can be evasive, and though he is infected by the culture of spin, he has a better handle on his brief than any other defence tasked Minister I've ever had to deal with, with the obvious exception of the VERY impressive Lord Drayson.
I spoke to him at RAF Odious today, I gave him as tough a time as I could, and I was pleased to shake his hand afterwards.
I wouldn't vote for him, but in a coalition government, he'd be one of the few Labour folk I'd consider keeping.
Mick, the new engines are already here, in small (and briefly decreasing) numbers. They were incorporated on a small number of cabs by UOR, and the mod has already started to be rolled out fleet wide. The cockpit will take longer.
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I know some engines came via an original UOR covering some (eight?) Chinooks, but quoting the Honeywell release (Honeywell to Provide New T55 Engines for U.K.'s Ministry of Defense Chinook Fleet, it mentioned that the extra engines (announced today) wouldn't begin to be fitted until next year and would "be acquired in the next five years" (multi-year contract?). Perhaps it changed.
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Chinook upgrades
As an interested observer looking in from the outside at the whole upgrade issue; could someone in the know please explain why every country (except the UK) that is buying new Chinooks or upgrading their present fleet are buying the F model but the RAF are not. Is this another British "lets do it on the cheap" bodge job that will end up costing us more in the long term?
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I do wish people would concentrate on the positives rather than just jump on the "buy more" bandwagon. Yes, we could do with more frames, but the Mk3s are coming and we've all seen the mistake made when the MOD purchased the Danish Merlins rather than investing in a proper spares package for the ones it already had.
If we were to go ahead and purchase more CH47s, we would have to wait some time as the small numbers we would potentially get would be a drop in the ocean compared to some of the big orders floating about. We have no special relationship. We aren't a preferred customer (despite being the world authority on CH47 operations - Boeing's words). We have no sway. Get over it and look for other solutions.
Speaking as someone who works at Odious, these mods are welcome (and long overdue) and provide improvements in capability which we are looking forward to having completed. As long as the mod programme does not affect the numbers on the line too badly, bring it on.
If we were to go ahead and purchase more CH47s, we would have to wait some time as the small numbers we would potentially get would be a drop in the ocean compared to some of the big orders floating about. We have no special relationship. We aren't a preferred customer (despite being the world authority on CH47 operations - Boeing's words). We have no sway. Get over it and look for other solutions.
Speaking as someone who works at Odious, these mods are welcome (and long overdue) and provide improvements in capability which we are looking forward to having completed. As long as the mod programme does not affect the numbers on the line too badly, bring it on.
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Who owns the white Merlin [EH101] with the red tail? Just curious as it flew over the Surrey Hills a few times yesterday aiming at Odiham
S92 Departing Denham :: a1.jpg :: Fotopic.Net
Last edited by leader12uk; 25th Sep 2009 at 07:26.