Future Lynx
Join Date: Apr 2000
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Helmut
Thanks for your reply and I thought you made some valid points. I'm as aware as everyone else (are you listening in Yeovil!) of the limitations of Lynx in its various guises. What I was trying to do is to try and discuss what the roles of the BLUH will be not how crap Lynx will be at them!
In particular to address a few points you made:
1. Although you say whoppee do - actually an extremely important task and one likely to occupy a lot of the flying hours on exercise I think.
2. when you say a warrior section - do you mean as in 9 blokes to fit in an AFV? If so I guess u must be in 1 Regt!
Personally I think we should be getting away from the concept that BLUH will be delivering combat power around the battlefield. In my initial post you will note that I specifically didn't mention troops. I accept the point about fitting an AH engine aboard though. IMHO all AH major assemblies/special tools must be capable of being carried in the BLUH cabin.
The comcept of BLUH carrying around fuel/ammunition for the AH is another red herring. Lets remember that a FARP containing two AH arming and refuelling points needs 4 DROPs to just carry the ammo! Lots of SH is the only way to do that so a flown in FARP will be a major Bde op (BTW SH are now integral to 16 Bde so that removes that problem).
3. Agree with you on the current sight. Important to note that I'm not talking about recce in the sense of a tactical op requiring aviation fieldcraft, etc but as a fly ahead with FARP/FOB Comd, etc , check out a few locations, walk the ground, decide on its suitability, etc. Therefore there is no real requirement for a sight. Under no circumstances do I envisage BLUH being used as an AOP aircraft.
4. Almost certainly it wouldn't be possible to fit every aircraft with the IDM/MFD but hopefully every aircraft would have the loom, etc to allow the boxes to be swapped over (ideally a 10-15 min procedure!). This would alleviate the MAUM weight problem.
5. Important to remember that CSAR is a package starting with AWAC, CAP, CAS, AH for area protection and then at the end an aircraft that actually picks the bloke up. Self defence is important but BLUH isn't going to have to do it all by itself!
Agree with you on the need to improve surviveability/crashworthiness though.
As far as lifting in patrols go it is a task that BLUH will be doing but IMHO it is a secondary task to those outlined above. Ultimately BLUH exists to support the AH and therefore it is those tasks that it must be designed for. Whatever aircraft we have is never going to have enough weight/space to satisfy the Paras so we need to be aware of that. BLUH is not an SH and I don't think we should push it towards being one.
Thanks for your reply and I thought you made some valid points. I'm as aware as everyone else (are you listening in Yeovil!) of the limitations of Lynx in its various guises. What I was trying to do is to try and discuss what the roles of the BLUH will be not how crap Lynx will be at them!
In particular to address a few points you made:
1. Although you say whoppee do - actually an extremely important task and one likely to occupy a lot of the flying hours on exercise I think.
2. when you say a warrior section - do you mean as in 9 blokes to fit in an AFV? If so I guess u must be in 1 Regt!
Personally I think we should be getting away from the concept that BLUH will be delivering combat power around the battlefield. In my initial post you will note that I specifically didn't mention troops. I accept the point about fitting an AH engine aboard though. IMHO all AH major assemblies/special tools must be capable of being carried in the BLUH cabin.
The comcept of BLUH carrying around fuel/ammunition for the AH is another red herring. Lets remember that a FARP containing two AH arming and refuelling points needs 4 DROPs to just carry the ammo! Lots of SH is the only way to do that so a flown in FARP will be a major Bde op (BTW SH are now integral to 16 Bde so that removes that problem).
3. Agree with you on the current sight. Important to note that I'm not talking about recce in the sense of a tactical op requiring aviation fieldcraft, etc but as a fly ahead with FARP/FOB Comd, etc , check out a few locations, walk the ground, decide on its suitability, etc. Therefore there is no real requirement for a sight. Under no circumstances do I envisage BLUH being used as an AOP aircraft.
4. Almost certainly it wouldn't be possible to fit every aircraft with the IDM/MFD but hopefully every aircraft would have the loom, etc to allow the boxes to be swapped over (ideally a 10-15 min procedure!). This would alleviate the MAUM weight problem.
5. Important to remember that CSAR is a package starting with AWAC, CAP, CAS, AH for area protection and then at the end an aircraft that actually picks the bloke up. Self defence is important but BLUH isn't going to have to do it all by itself!
Agree with you on the need to improve surviveability/crashworthiness though.
As far as lifting in patrols go it is a task that BLUH will be doing but IMHO it is a secondary task to those outlined above. Ultimately BLUH exists to support the AH and therefore it is those tasks that it must be designed for. Whatever aircraft we have is never going to have enough weight/space to satisfy the Paras so we need to be aware of that. BLUH is not an SH and I don't think we should push it towards being one.
Join Date: Apr 2000
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Sorry to disagree with you bonk but there isn't any BLUH doctrine out there - try asking the SO2 LUH at JHC. I should know - I did.
The idea that there is some massive pool of doctrine and knowledge at Wallop, etc ready to support the AH/BLUH when it comes into service is just not correct I'm afraid. Lets not kid ourselves when the only paperwork that currently exists (that isn't marked under construction) is TD Note 36! BTW I think that is dated 1996... Of course if I'm wrong please feel free to direct me as to where it can be found.
You are right there is an SUR but as you yourself point out it was written some time ago. Well before the formation of 16 Bde, JHC, etc and all the lessons that have subsequently been learnt.
I don't know why you feel that these issues shouldn't be discussed in a professional manner - you never know someone in a position of influence might even read this!
The idea that there is some massive pool of doctrine and knowledge at Wallop, etc ready to support the AH/BLUH when it comes into service is just not correct I'm afraid. Lets not kid ourselves when the only paperwork that currently exists (that isn't marked under construction) is TD Note 36! BTW I think that is dated 1996... Of course if I'm wrong please feel free to direct me as to where it can be found.
You are right there is an SUR but as you yourself point out it was written some time ago. Well before the formation of 16 Bde, JHC, etc and all the lessons that have subsequently been learnt.
I don't know why you feel that these issues shouldn't be discussed in a professional manner - you never know someone in a position of influence might even read this!
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Specualtion through lack of information? A few chaps in shiny suits do not answer the questions.
This is Pprune after all. No dirty washing done here just the usual non clas questions/opinions aired.
This is Pprune after all. No dirty washing done here just the usual non clas questions/opinions aired.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: England
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SUMO664, how the devil are you? Your profile say's that you are from God's Country. The last time I saw you was as you left for a large coloured toilet (colout not named so as not to cause offence) have you escaped? Drop me a line when you get the chance. Ps If you can't work out who I am by my profile just mail anyway and all will be revealed. Like you, I can't be bothered changing my handle just because life has changed.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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I'm going to add to this debate purely to put it back on top of the message board list, and because I like to talk and haven't done any recently.
This approach (whilst I've got your attention) reminds me of a book I read as a wee lad called "Grimble". The Grimble of the title was a young boy whose parents went on holiday to Brazil for a month without telling him; just leaving notes all over the house. One of these messages was written in green ink on a Garibaldi biscuit, and read: "Do not eat this biscuit as green ink is bad for you". I just thought I'd share that with you all.
This approach (whilst I've got your attention) reminds me of a book I read as a wee lad called "Grimble". The Grimble of the title was a young boy whose parents went on holiday to Brazil for a month without telling him; just leaving notes all over the house. One of these messages was written in green ink on a Garibaldi biscuit, and read: "Do not eat this biscuit as green ink is bad for you". I just thought I'd share that with you all.
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I believe he hasn't talked recently!! I can normally hear him HERE when he does!!!!
Future Lynx, Hmmmm, this debate is obviously dear to my heart, and I think both Helmut and Sumo put accross valid points, even if they are in different styles??
I just hope that someone in Charge IS listening to what we, the users who put ourselves in the front seat/line in these machines, both want and think!!!
Ray, you are right, it is an option. It's been doing the job for almost forty years in various guises, in fact the one I flew today has over 28000 hours and still works perfectly.(Thats over three lifespans of a Lynx). May not be the fastest, or the most modern, but it lifts lots, goeson for ever, and I wouldn't want to crash out here in anything else!!!(Especially a Suzuki swift!
Yours
Murph x x x
Future Lynx, Hmmmm, this debate is obviously dear to my heart, and I think both Helmut and Sumo put accross valid points, even if they are in different styles??
I just hope that someone in Charge IS listening to what we, the users who put ourselves in the front seat/line in these machines, both want and think!!!
Ray, you are right, it is an option. It's been doing the job for almost forty years in various guises, in fact the one I flew today has over 28000 hours and still works perfectly.(Thats over three lifespans of a Lynx). May not be the fastest, or the most modern, but it lifts lots, goeson for ever, and I wouldn't want to crash out here in anything else!!!(Especially a Suzuki swift!
Yours
Murph x x x
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Murph,
Get your head out of your own egotistical bum, smell the coffee which will hopefully give you a reality check.
I am not a staff officer but you just naturally assume that they are blind to the needs of the operator.
What you think has already been done mate...that 'consultation' phase was conducted approximately 4 years ago (I know because I was actually in a crewroom when asked by a load of shiney arses that you happily slag off) Somehow, I feel as though they can't keep on returning to you to ask what your opinion is as the project would never go anywhere.
So to put it bluntly mate you can all try and shut the stable door but the proverbial horse has left town....fully informed and after consulting operators like you and me....but I am sure that if you want to turn back time or catch the horse then off you go. However, if you want to keep the process dynamic, then this forum and associated hot air will get diddley squit......so...courage of your convictions, put it all down on paper and pass it through your boss who I am sure will find the right desk for it to be considered (with the 1000 and 1 other external issues that realistically have to be considered as well as yours Murph).
Just a thought Murph? Its Sunday morning....what on earth am I doing...sad gimp!
Back to bed.....or get back on it...hmmmh...
Get your head out of your own egotistical bum, smell the coffee which will hopefully give you a reality check.
I am not a staff officer but you just naturally assume that they are blind to the needs of the operator.
What you think has already been done mate...that 'consultation' phase was conducted approximately 4 years ago (I know because I was actually in a crewroom when asked by a load of shiney arses that you happily slag off) Somehow, I feel as though they can't keep on returning to you to ask what your opinion is as the project would never go anywhere.
So to put it bluntly mate you can all try and shut the stable door but the proverbial horse has left town....fully informed and after consulting operators like you and me....but I am sure that if you want to turn back time or catch the horse then off you go. However, if you want to keep the process dynamic, then this forum and associated hot air will get diddley squit......so...courage of your convictions, put it all down on paper and pass it through your boss who I am sure will find the right desk for it to be considered (with the 1000 and 1 other external issues that realistically have to be considered as well as yours Murph).
Just a thought Murph? Its Sunday morning....what on earth am I doing...sad gimp!
Back to bed.....or get back on it...hmmmh...
Join Date: Apr 1999
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If anybody within HM Forces truly believes that we get the best kit for the job we do for the right reasons you probably also think that somebidy cares when you get shot in NI or at the moment sunnier climes. The people who make the real decisions on what we get couldn't give a rats ar** about what the ideal kit is. It's all about comprimise, poloitics and jobs in the regions or some other crap. The SO2's and above who do all the legwork do their best but they soon learn how the system really works. Sorry but I reckon it was decided ages ago in the halls of financial power that we will get Future Lynx whatever so put your energies into making sure that it is the best Future Lynx we can get. Either that or leave besides after 4000hrs in the Lynx it isn't that bad - is it??
Safe flying!
Regards to all
Safe flying!
Regards to all
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Sorry to drag this one to the top again, but I've just completed ITD 11!!Fantastic subject!!(Moral understanding for those not in the know)
During the course of the training we were shown an extract from "A few good men"(Demi in White uniform,Mmmm!!), the part where Jack is being grilled by Tom about whether he ordered the code red on the dead soldier. Which he admits in the end!!
This was followed by a long discussion by the Padre as to why this action would be in direct contravention of the contents of "Values and Standards of the British Army" a booklet that EVERY soldier has been issued with, as he was not carrying out his duty of offering the maximum protection from harm to his troops from avoidable, and known about, actions.
When asked if these Lectures are given to the whole of the Army, from the very top all the way down, the answer was "Of course".
My point therefore (See, there was a point after all) is, surely the people in high places have a duty of care to secure us the very best of kit to prevent the above happening.(Harm from preventable events, not Code Reds)and we know future Lynx isn't it!!
During the course of the training we were shown an extract from "A few good men"(Demi in White uniform,Mmmm!!), the part where Jack is being grilled by Tom about whether he ordered the code red on the dead soldier. Which he admits in the end!!
This was followed by a long discussion by the Padre as to why this action would be in direct contravention of the contents of "Values and Standards of the British Army" a booklet that EVERY soldier has been issued with, as he was not carrying out his duty of offering the maximum protection from harm to his troops from avoidable, and known about, actions.
When asked if these Lectures are given to the whole of the Army, from the very top all the way down, the answer was "Of course".
My point therefore (See, there was a point after all) is, surely the people in high places have a duty of care to secure us the very best of kit to prevent the above happening.(Harm from preventable events, not Code Reds)and we know future Lynx isn't it!!
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Dear AAC,
After spending the vast amonts of HM cash on the very capable WAH64, the AAC will get the battlefield support aircraft it can afford. Afford being the most pertinent word. Those of you living in the "AAC on the battlefied alone" world are living in the past. Get real, as previously stated, it would take a significant amount of SH to support a WAH64 FARP and a few Lynx (or their replacement) will not make much of a difference. Its so easy to say "we want blackhawk" "we want etc etc", most of which are I expect manufactured by our USA friends. I doubt if many of you have ever flown many of the competitors but are just very keen to slag off the UK product (and no, I do not work for Westlands). I dont see much evidence of the USA brethren slagging off their countries products but the Brits make a speciality of having a go at home produce. Call it replacement lynx, BLUH or whatever. Just remember it will part of something larger than just the AAC. You have spent a lot on the excellent WAH64. You must live with the consequences.
After spending the vast amonts of HM cash on the very capable WAH64, the AAC will get the battlefield support aircraft it can afford. Afford being the most pertinent word. Those of you living in the "AAC on the battlefied alone" world are living in the past. Get real, as previously stated, it would take a significant amount of SH to support a WAH64 FARP and a few Lynx (or their replacement) will not make much of a difference. Its so easy to say "we want blackhawk" "we want etc etc", most of which are I expect manufactured by our USA friends. I doubt if many of you have ever flown many of the competitors but are just very keen to slag off the UK product (and no, I do not work for Westlands). I dont see much evidence of the USA brethren slagging off their countries products but the Brits make a speciality of having a go at home produce. Call it replacement lynx, BLUH or whatever. Just remember it will part of something larger than just the AAC. You have spent a lot on the excellent WAH64. You must live with the consequences.
Join Date: Apr 2000
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Bring on the next lynx. Can't wait.
Pse don't let it leak. Let it have an intermitent window screen wipe and how about a clock that is NVG compatible even when NVG lighting is selected. Anything else would be very welcome.
ps. let it have the same AUM as the navy one too, instead of us having to diet.
Pse don't let it leak. Let it have an intermitent window screen wipe and how about a clock that is NVG compatible even when NVG lighting is selected. Anything else would be very welcome.
ps. let it have the same AUM as the navy one too, instead of us having to diet.
