Lynx hits wires

[Razor61]

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Devon | Lynx helicopter in forced landing

Happened around 6:30pm north of my area in Devon around Lynton?
Not far i believe from where an HC4 Commando hit wires.

[Seaking93]

Happened a lot earlier than that, it was tannoyed at VL mid afternoon

[Double Zero]

I'm ( obviously ) no rotary wing type, but I thought there were systems in place to avoid flying into pylon wires - hell, I might even manage it with dowsing rods !

My local village - not too far from Odiham - has regular Lynx & Chinook over-flights, unlit so presumably NVG's at night, some at low enough level to seem like taking the roof off.

( there's a nasty tall T.V. mast nearby ).

I have my own NVG's so enjoy the display, but some NIMBY's have objected, so Odiham are hopefully going to put on a P.R. display in the town hall.

This doesn't answer why the Lynx hit the cables, I thought among other things modern aircraft GPS makes a point of showing such things ?

[Two's in]

I'm ( obviously ) no rotary wing type, but I thought there were systems in place to avoid flying into pylon wires - hell, I might even manage it with dowsing rods !

It's usually a map with a blue line, but the problem is not all the wires are marked and of course, sometimes the aircraft can arrive at the point on the map slightly before the map reader.

There are IR and GPS linked systems out there, but I'm guessing wires are not normally a major hazard for ship based helos, so they are probably not a priority for fitting such systems given the MoD's current budget crisis for a sustainable rotary capability.

[anotherthing]

I'm ( obviously ) no rotary wing type, but I thought there were systems in place to avoid flying into pylon wires - hell, I might even manage it with dowsing rods !

Two's in gives some reasons, also even though RW flies relatively slowly, they can be a lot lower than jets and the workload at times can be huge. Wires are not always easily seen against a backdrop of terrain, looking for the pylons is one way of spotting wires, but is not failsafe (otherwise this incident would not have happened).

This doesn't answer why the Lynx hit the cables, I thought among other things modern aircraft GPS makes a point of showing such things ?

GPS reliance is not a good idea either, the whole idea of flying low level is keeping your eyes out of the window, not heads down looking at instruments.

Who knows at this stage why this Lynx struck wires but there can be many reasons why - mistakes happen. Many more accidents would happen if crews spent more time heads in looking at GPS etc when low level flying!

For the amount of low level RW flying that goes on, the incidence of wire strikes is very low. However, having lost a friend early on in flying training who hit a very well known set of wires withion the Mil community, I know that it is often easier said than done.

Flippant remarks about dowsing rods, which is almost calling the professionalism of the crew into doubt, are not needed.

[vecvechookattack]

Although the GPS will run the Nav computer - During Low Level the crew will not use the Nav but will map read and look out of the window ( or not)

[Gainesy]

Not all wires are "official" either, farmers have a penchant for stringing lines to barns, workshops etc.

[[email protected]]

Although most of the wires you are likely to encounter at 100' agl are well marked, some of the suspended wires across valleys are not always marked as such and can surprise an unwary crew.

[clareprop]

Oh well, they survived (which is top news) and will now join the many others known as Sparky...

[tucumseh]

The RSRE (now QinetiQ) system whereby a laser was used to detect wires and display on, for example, the HUD, was trialled many years ago. Late 80s I think.

I remember the RAF wanted something like “detect one inch cables at 1 mile, how many years to develop?” RSRE’s reply was, “We can give you half inch at 3 miles now, but we’re working on improvements”. (Values deliberately wrong – but you get the idea).

Not sure how that project ended up.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by tucumseh

Not sure how that project ended up.

I would guess it was the usual cost/benefit analysis.

How many wire-strikes? How much is the cost? Kit too expensive, inidence low, cost not too high. Cancelled.

[tucumseh]

PN

Probably spot on. I'll ask the boffin next time I'm up. He's still there.

[Double Zero]

Please do not take my comments re. dowsing rods as insulting in any way, apologies if it seemed that way but they - rods & 'twigs' do actually work, especially in detecting current flows and structural beams etc ( yes, people often think I'm a nut until they see it for themselves ).

However I wouldn't fancy trying it at 100+ knots, but thought there were electronic versions ?

As for GPS, better than a paper chart I suppose, especially with a HUD, as long as the survey it was based on is accurate; plenty of yachts have come to grief using GPS, relying on the readoubt in decimal figures ( depth sounders & probably rad' alt's give the same misleading sense of accuracy );

when one looks at the small print, it often reads something like " surveyed by Captain Jack Aubrey, 1860 " !

Everything always seems to come down to calibration...

Just glad the crew got out OK

[trex450]

Flying low/ultra low is fun, I have plenty of experience of that and cannot deny it is a buzz. Why is it that the military have such a high degree of CFIT type accidents? The lynx and F3 seem to be recent examples. Before anyone says it I know it is speculation but why is it necessary to fly such high performance/workload aircraft so low at such speeds. I guess I already answered it, fun, adrenaline, boys in expensive toys. A friend of mine recalled a conversation in bar with an F3 jock who was proudly displaying his thousand hour badge. He was asked if it was night or instrument by a very seasoned helo pilot. My point is that a lot of these guys are in reality still getting to grips with the hardware they are in and maybe such low flying practices should occur away from people and cables and winding valleys. It seems that on other forums everyone is all to ready to speculate and point the finger but not so on this one.

On a practical note, why is it that (given the amount of low flying) cable cutters are not fitted to military helicopters, a lot of civvy helicopters like Jet Rangers seem to have them and it would seem to me a simple inexpensive thing to do.

[Lynxman]

For helicopters that are not designed for cutters in the outset retro fit is difficult and costly as the internal structure requires strengthening to take the loads otherwise the cutter will just shear off.

[Charlie Time]

Trex - I will grant you that there has been a marked dilution of experience in the maritime Lynx fleet in the last few years, but do you have any evidence to support your suggestion that the crew were 'still coming to terms with the hardware'?

[Two's in]

Before anyone says it I know it is speculation but why is it necessary to fly such high performance/workload aircraft so low at such speeds. I guess I already answered it, fun, adrenaline, boys in expensive toys.

I'll let the FJ fraternity speak for themselves, but if you think flying low in rotary is about "fun, adrenaline, boys in expensive toys" then you may have missed some of the threads here for the last 7 years or so. At some point during helicopter operations there is a high probability that a landing is required in an insecure or even hot landing zone. The transition out of the slightly safer altitudes, to arrive at an LZ with any element of tactical surprise or covertness can require skill, planning, and amazingly enough, exposure to ultra low level flying. It is an extremely perishable skill with a high degree of risk, but practice and currency reduce those risks to managable levels. By all means point the finger at those who have been caught out wazzing and zooming, but please don't under any circumstances classify low flying as anything but what it is - an essential military skill.

[Flap62]

450,

Excellent trawl so I'll bite!

He was asked if it was night or instrument by a very seasoned helo pilot

Having plenty of time in both mil and civvie worlds I can tell you that the chap will have made more command decisions in his 1000hrs and had more experience of flying close to the edge of the performance envelope than your seasoned helo chap. Does he know it all? No, that's why they continue to refine hard won skills by operating in challenging environments.

If, after 3 tours of front line single seat fast jet, someone had sneeringly asked me - "Yeah, but how much of that time was instrument hours?" I would have enjoyed the subsequent conversation!

[anotherthing]

Double Zero - no worries, I probably over reacted about the dowsing rods and didn't take it in the way it was intended!

Trex450

(btw regarding your name - is that where you get your flying experience from - a model R/C helicopter??)

It seems that on other forums everyone is all to ready to speculate and point the finger but not so on this one

Maybe this forum is more professional then? Anyone can point the finger and speculate - as can be seen on other fora you end up with a lot of complete rubbish being mooted.

Maybe the guys on this forum understand that accidents do happen, regardless of experience.

Low flying in an intricate fighting machine with multiple mission systems on board that need to be managed when you have many other considerations such as evasion/remaining unseen etc is a lot different to fannying about flying through gates in some handling competition in an R22!

[Tourist]

Flap.

"Having plenty of time in both mil and civvie worlds I can tell you that the chap will have made more command decisions in his 1000hrs and had more experience of flying close to the edge of the performance envelope than your seasoned helo chap"

You mention mil and civvy worlds, but not rotary. Do you have front line military rotary experience?


I think quite a lot of SK/Chinook/Apache/Puma/Lynx crews would "would have enjoyed the subsequent conversation! " with you if you if you came out with crap like that.