Women in Australian Defence Forces front line?
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What an own goal for the politicians when the first woman makes it right the way through SAS training and is posted to a Sabre Squadron, they won't be able to publish either her name or her photograph!
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would love to be wrong
I might be wrong but I still don't think they accept women in the Royal Marines, SBS or SAS regardless of whether they can complete the training or not (And I mean doing the Commando course and completing selection - I am not talking about Int or other ancillary roles. )
GI Jane is still a fiction in the British Military. Great film though! (Try not to digress about the cinemagraphic experience of GI Jane - it's a throwaway comment really and it wouldn't make my top ten)
GI Jane is still a fiction in the British Military. Great film though! (Try not to digress about the cinemagraphic experience of GI Jane - it's a throwaway comment really and it wouldn't make my top ten)
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Women in the Royal Marines
A female army officer did pass the All Arms Commando course a few years ago (although there were rumours about help on the 6 ft wall - possibly chauvinistic rumours bred down the Exmouth Arms).
Good effort on her.
However letting ladies into the Royal Marines would pose 3 serious problems.
1. Changing strenuous training programmes to allow females to participate, and changing living areas, showering, 'bivvying', PC attitudes ( a major hurdle) etc
2. When to get naked in the bar and when to stay clothed.
3. Not being upstaged on a silly rig run ashore whilst wearing mini skirt, sussies and wig.
There are some women that are capable of passing the 30 week course, but cost of extra facilities, changes to training programme and the answers to points 2 & 3 may prove too difficult to answer.
Lets not try to fix something that certainly isn't broken.
Nothing terrifies Terry Taliban more than the knowledge that the blokes that are more than capable of killing them, also know how to throw a 'Phil Tuffnell' punch whilst wearing a 'small black dress' and size 10 high heels.
Good effort on her.
However letting ladies into the Royal Marines would pose 3 serious problems.
1. Changing strenuous training programmes to allow females to participate, and changing living areas, showering, 'bivvying', PC attitudes ( a major hurdle) etc
2. When to get naked in the bar and when to stay clothed.
3. Not being upstaged on a silly rig run ashore whilst wearing mini skirt, sussies and wig.
There are some women that are capable of passing the 30 week course, but cost of extra facilities, changes to training programme and the answers to points 2 & 3 may prove too difficult to answer.
Lets not try to fix something that certainly isn't broken.
Nothing terrifies Terry Taliban more than the knowledge that the blokes that are more than capable of killing them, also know how to throw a 'Phil Tuffnell' punch whilst wearing a 'small black dress' and size 10 high heels.
Last edited by GPMG; 16th Sep 2009 at 23:08.
Captain Sand Dune wrote:
I totally agree with you, however, our lordhips would find it very tempting to move the line a bit to the left should not enough of the fairer sex make the grade. It may be forced on them by the pollies.
According to what I heard on the radio (and SAFM never lie) the idea is to have an acceptable level for each mustering or trade group, irrespective of sex.
How could they implement this? Where do you draw the line in the sand, at the level of the oldest female? If it is at a higher level, how do you get rid of the people who can't make the level and are already doing the job?
Is there then a need for a seperate PFT, or is there an acceptable level for each group, irrespective of age or sex?
Just trying to implement this would open a huge can of worms, one which hasn't even begun to be thought through.
As long as they achieve the required standard, good on 'em!
According to what I heard on the radio (and SAFM never lie) the idea is to have an acceptable level for each mustering or trade group, irrespective of sex.
How could they implement this? Where do you draw the line in the sand, at the level of the oldest female? If it is at a higher level, how do you get rid of the people who can't make the level and are already doing the job?
Is there then a need for a seperate PFT, or is there an acceptable level for each group, irrespective of age or sex?
Just trying to implement this would open a huge can of worms, one which hasn't even begun to be thought through.
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During my time at MOD as a staff officer the debate was on about employing women as front-line fast jet pilots/aircrew. We were tasked with eliciting the opinions of all those western armed forces that had already gone down that path (think Israel etc).
Without exception they all came back to us and said, in a word, DON'T DO IT!
Without exception they all came back to us and said, in a word, DON'T DO IT!
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however, our lordhips would find it very tempting to move the line a bit to the left should not enough of the fairer sex make the grade. It may be forced on them by the pollies.
Without exception they all came back to us and said, in a word, DON'T DO IT!
As far as flying training in the ADF goes I’m happy that they can throw as many females at us as they like , but the standard will still be maintained. The potential grief for a senior officer for not fielding as many females on pilots course as the pollies would like would be nothing compared to what would happen if a female spuds in and it came to light that she had not been able to make the grade and was “pushed through”.
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Better bras please, ask women soldiers - The West Australian
Swedish female soldiers are demanding the military provide them with combat-tested bras, amid complaints that the sports bras they must buy themselves unhook too easily, officials say.
Unlike their male counterparts who are provided with military-issue underwear, Sweden's 500-odd women conscripts must buy bras themselves since there are no military-issue brassieres, according to the Council of Conscripts, a union-like organisation.
"The women have had to buy sports bras instead. But they are not tested for combat situations nor for fire safety, and they are not functional. They unhook too easily," Council spokeswoman Paulina Rehbinder told AFP.
She criticised the military for its lack of gender equality, in a country widely considered a pioneer in the field.
Unlike their male counterparts who are provided with military-issue underwear, Sweden's 500-odd women conscripts must buy bras themselves since there are no military-issue brassieres, according to the Council of Conscripts, a union-like organisation.
"The women have had to buy sports bras instead. But they are not tested for combat situations nor for fire safety, and they are not functional. They unhook too easily," Council spokeswoman Paulina Rehbinder told AFP.
She criticised the military for its lack of gender equality, in a country widely considered a pioneer in the field.
Women have been flying all RAAF aircraft for years. This latest thought bubble is about Land Warfare, with the phrase "frontline service" being bandied around. It sounds like "frontline service" is something about living in a first world war trench and relying on 200 meter marksmanship to win the day...?
So lets get 50 women into 4RAR ?
999 out of 1000 women just will NOT be able to carry the 40Kg+ for the big Km's at +40 C / -10C etc, consistently day in day out, all day and half the night, then go and do an attack that may go for a few days. Some could try, but succeed only as weak links, which is a zero. And the weaker dudes (15%) will cluster around them.
The WW2 era Soviets tried it because the needed a max effort, but ceased employing women after they won. The IDF tried it also, but only in the 1948 war, and ceased afterwards because of the effect of WIA/KIA females on male soldiers. The present era IDF has some mixed gender border guard units but no mixed main force Infantry units, so the idea of using the IDF as an example for the ADF to follow is invalid.
Realistically, as soon as women want to and then actually do, on equal terms with males, play and succeed at first grade rugby league or in internationally recognised title middleweight kickboxing, then the ADF may actually get some women who both want to and do become effective in Infantry / Armour / Artillery. Until then - yeah, you might get a couple of big fit girls starting Infantry IET but my guess is that they'll be crawling along with their chins in the dirt 1000m behind the blokes by about week 4....
I just don't see what we gain as a society by sending women off to get hosed at by equal opportunity 7.62 but with less survival probability than male soldiers.
So lets get 50 women into 4RAR ?
999 out of 1000 women just will NOT be able to carry the 40Kg+ for the big Km's at +40 C / -10C etc, consistently day in day out, all day and half the night, then go and do an attack that may go for a few days. Some could try, but succeed only as weak links, which is a zero. And the weaker dudes (15%) will cluster around them.
The WW2 era Soviets tried it because the needed a max effort, but ceased employing women after they won. The IDF tried it also, but only in the 1948 war, and ceased afterwards because of the effect of WIA/KIA females on male soldiers. The present era IDF has some mixed gender border guard units but no mixed main force Infantry units, so the idea of using the IDF as an example for the ADF to follow is invalid.
Realistically, as soon as women want to and then actually do, on equal terms with males, play and succeed at first grade rugby league or in internationally recognised title middleweight kickboxing, then the ADF may actually get some women who both want to and do become effective in Infantry / Armour / Artillery. Until then - yeah, you might get a couple of big fit girls starting Infantry IET but my guess is that they'll be crawling along with their chins in the dirt 1000m behind the blokes by about week 4....
I just don't see what we gain as a society by sending women off to get hosed at by equal opportunity 7.62 but with less survival probability than male soldiers.
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Originally Posted by The Wawa Zone
999 out of 1000 women just will NOT be able to carry the 40Kg+ for the big Km's at +40 C / -10C etc, consistently day in day out, all day and half the night, then go and do an attack that may go for a few days. Some could try, but succeed only as weak links, which is a zero.
Precision Voting
Look at the pictures. End of patrol, women still carrying all their own kit.
See also:
Night Into Day
As for your "only weak links" comment, I suggest you consider the two young female medics who have earned the Military Cross.
Able Seaman Kate Nesbitt in Afghanistan
Private Michelle Norris in Iraq
When I discover I'm wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?
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Well, the USN is talking about putting women in nuc subs now... to the experimentation proceeds.
U.S. military may lift ban on women in submarines - Yahoo! Canada News
Of course, the testimony Mullen was giving to Congress was at a hearing to reconfirm him as Chairman Joint Chiefs.
Therefore, this can be translated as "In order to keep my position of ultimate power in the US military, I'll now say something that will please both the sitting president and the ruling party in Congress by fitting in with their social agendas".
Lots of discussion here: USN to lift ban on women on submarines?! - The United States Navy - NavWeaps Discussion Boards - NavWeaps Discussion Boards - Message Board - Yuku
U.S. military may lift ban on women in submarines - Yahoo! Canada News
U.S. military may lift ban on women in submarines 1 hour, 53 minutes ago
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Top Pentagon officials are calling for an end to the U.S. military's historical ban on allowing women to serve in submarines.
Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the top U.S. military officer, advocated the policy change in written congressional testimony distributed by his office to reporters on Friday.
"I believe we should continue to broaden opportunities for women. One policy I would like to see changed is the one barring (women's) service aboard submarines," Mullen said.
Navy Secretary Ray Mabus said he was "moving out aggressively on this."
"I am very comfortable addressing integrating women into the submarine force," Admiral Gary Roughead, chief of naval operations, said in a statement.
Women account for about 15 percent of the more than 336,000 members of the U.S. Navy and can serve on its surface ships. But critics have argued that submarines are different, pointing to cramped quarters where some crews share beds in shifts.
Nancy Duff Campbell, an advocate for expanding the role of women in the U.S. armed forces, said it would be easy to resolve problems associated with so-called "hot-bunking."
"They say, 'How could we have the women sleeping in the same area as men?'" said Campbell, co-president of the National Women's Law Center (NWLC).
"But they already separate where the officers sleep from the enlisted, so it's not like it can't be done."
Roughead said the problem of sorting out accommodations on the U.S. fleet of 71 submarines was not insurmountable.
Allowing women on submarines would be another step forward in expanding the role of women in the U.S. military. Last year, a woman was promoted to the rank of four-star general for the first time.
Women are still barred from traditional frontline combat roles in the U.S. military. But female soldiers often run the same risks as men in Iraq and Afghanistan, where bombings and other insurgent attacks can happen almost anywhere and target any U.S. unit.
(Reporting by Phil Stewart; editing by Paul Simao)
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Top Pentagon officials are calling for an end to the U.S. military's historical ban on allowing women to serve in submarines.
Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the top U.S. military officer, advocated the policy change in written congressional testimony distributed by his office to reporters on Friday.
"I believe we should continue to broaden opportunities for women. One policy I would like to see changed is the one barring (women's) service aboard submarines," Mullen said.
Navy Secretary Ray Mabus said he was "moving out aggressively on this."
"I am very comfortable addressing integrating women into the submarine force," Admiral Gary Roughead, chief of naval operations, said in a statement.
Women account for about 15 percent of the more than 336,000 members of the U.S. Navy and can serve on its surface ships. But critics have argued that submarines are different, pointing to cramped quarters where some crews share beds in shifts.
Nancy Duff Campbell, an advocate for expanding the role of women in the U.S. armed forces, said it would be easy to resolve problems associated with so-called "hot-bunking."
"They say, 'How could we have the women sleeping in the same area as men?'" said Campbell, co-president of the National Women's Law Center (NWLC).
"But they already separate where the officers sleep from the enlisted, so it's not like it can't be done."
Roughead said the problem of sorting out accommodations on the U.S. fleet of 71 submarines was not insurmountable.
Allowing women on submarines would be another step forward in expanding the role of women in the U.S. military. Last year, a woman was promoted to the rank of four-star general for the first time.
Women are still barred from traditional frontline combat roles in the U.S. military. But female soldiers often run the same risks as men in Iraq and Afghanistan, where bombings and other insurgent attacks can happen almost anywhere and target any U.S. unit.
(Reporting by Phil Stewart; editing by Paul Simao)
Of course, the testimony Mullen was giving to Congress was at a hearing to reconfirm him as Chairman Joint Chiefs.
Therefore, this can be translated as "In order to keep my position of ultimate power in the US military, I'll now say something that will please both the sitting president and the ruling party in Congress by fitting in with their social agendas".
Lots of discussion here: USN to lift ban on women on submarines?! - The United States Navy - NavWeaps Discussion Boards - NavWeaps Discussion Boards - Message Board - Yuku
The simple facts are that the ADF does not maintain the same standards for serving men and women.
The BFA standards for women are generally much lower than they are for men.
The Introduction of women, in support roles, to one of my former units (an infantry battalion) has quickly erroded the units previously high standards.
The COs fitness test (which was bloddy hard for blokes) has been abolished and many of the women posted in are having to undertake remedial PT to get up to standard for certain courses.
I have met women in the ADF who were fitter than, and had had as much endurance as, most men. I know there are women who can make it.
This idea is fine if the standards maintained are the same, but they are not now and are therefore unlikely to be in the future.
For that reason alone going down this path will result in a weaker ADF.
The BFA standards for women are generally much lower than they are for men.
The Introduction of women, in support roles, to one of my former units (an infantry battalion) has quickly erroded the units previously high standards.
The COs fitness test (which was bloddy hard for blokes) has been abolished and many of the women posted in are having to undertake remedial PT to get up to standard for certain courses.
I have met women in the ADF who were fitter than, and had had as much endurance as, most men. I know there are women who can make it.
This idea is fine if the standards maintained are the same, but they are not now and are therefore unlikely to be in the future.
For that reason alone going down this path will result in a weaker ADF.
Hi Gravel,
I appreciate your point, and those reports are excellent. The female medics discussed are not weak links in any sense.
However, female platoon medics being highly effective in that role, doing 8-10 hours on foot over maybe 10,000 meters with a Med pack plus webbing and weapon, does not prove that they can do it as #1 or 2 on a section's GPMG, or carrying a mortar baseplate or the other gear carried by the fighting elements of an Infantry section. Or, have the speed and strength requirements in a hand 2 hand bloodbath ( or do we exclude female Infantry from clearing ops in populated built up areas in no/lo light conditions, etc).
If women do get as far as deployments within Infantry units, fine. They'll either do the job or get casevaced as exhaustion cases. My guess is that the actual numbers you could count on one hand.
Somehow I can't see us being a world leader on this one.
The RAN has had mixed submarine crews for a while.
I appreciate your point, and those reports are excellent. The female medics discussed are not weak links in any sense.
However, female platoon medics being highly effective in that role, doing 8-10 hours on foot over maybe 10,000 meters with a Med pack plus webbing and weapon, does not prove that they can do it as #1 or 2 on a section's GPMG, or carrying a mortar baseplate or the other gear carried by the fighting elements of an Infantry section. Or, have the speed and strength requirements in a hand 2 hand bloodbath ( or do we exclude female Infantry from clearing ops in populated built up areas in no/lo light conditions, etc).
If women do get as far as deployments within Infantry units, fine. They'll either do the job or get casevaced as exhaustion cases. My guess is that the actual numbers you could count on one hand.
Somehow I can't see us being a world leader on this one.
The RAN has had mixed submarine crews for a while.
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Originally Posted by The Wawa Zone
If women do get as far as deployments within Infantry units, fine.
The Canadians are in Afghanistan; they have women in the infantry.
Captain Nichola Goddard was a FOO
Trooper Karine Blais was Cavalry, but serving with 2nd Battalion, Royal 22nd Regiment Battle Group.
As for closing with the enemy and killing them, an MP called Sergeant Leigh Ann Hester earned a Silver Star doing just that.
Hi Gravel, no, I meant deployment within Infantry units as Infantry, but again, all good examples. No one doubts that women can do their jobs and more when required. Also, Google on Monica Lin Brown's Siver Star.
However, the quoted examples are all the result of vehicle ambushes and/or consequent mounted or dismounted counter ambush drills - mostly over in 1/2 an hour or less, with little movement and with the area soon dominated by an overwatch force.
None of these, however, give support to the proposition that a fighting unit with a significant percentage of females in offensive roles is equally as effective as a conventional all male unit, during an extended period of high tempo ops where physical strength and endurance have progressively greater opportunites to become critical to unit survival. Note that this includes the period after the first adhreniline hit is long gone.
The point often overlooked is the effect of women in offensive roles on the military force's effectivesness, not whether women, as individuals, can do their jobs under fire.
The proof will come out in the pass rate for women in Infantry / Artillery / Eng IET (still the current Aus-speak, I think), plus the debrief/ LLs after a (eg.) four week high tempo exercise. If the female soldiers are still there and the exercise mixed units were effective, then objections will fade away. If the books where cooked to achieve the result, there will soon be much misery for anyone not smart enough to be elsewhere asap.
How much latitude can we allow in unit effectiveness ? The answer could be - for what trade-off, and what is the margin in a "near run thing" ?
However, the quoted examples are all the result of vehicle ambushes and/or consequent mounted or dismounted counter ambush drills - mostly over in 1/2 an hour or less, with little movement and with the area soon dominated by an overwatch force.
None of these, however, give support to the proposition that a fighting unit with a significant percentage of females in offensive roles is equally as effective as a conventional all male unit, during an extended period of high tempo ops where physical strength and endurance have progressively greater opportunites to become critical to unit survival. Note that this includes the period after the first adhreniline hit is long gone.
The point often overlooked is the effect of women in offensive roles on the military force's effectivesness, not whether women, as individuals, can do their jobs under fire.
The proof will come out in the pass rate for women in Infantry / Artillery / Eng IET (still the current Aus-speak, I think), plus the debrief/ LLs after a (eg.) four week high tempo exercise. If the female soldiers are still there and the exercise mixed units were effective, then objections will fade away. If the books where cooked to achieve the result, there will soon be much misery for anyone not smart enough to be elsewhere asap.
How much latitude can we allow in unit effectiveness ? The answer could be - for what trade-off, and what is the margin in a "near run thing" ?
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A question: after the 'Atlantic Conveyor' was sunk, with all bar one of the Chinooks sent to the Falklands lost, the Marines and the Paras walked with staggering (literally?) personal loads, across really uninviting terrain in truly horrible weather - and during and towards the end of that exhausting forced march, fought more than one very nasty engagement, some involving one on one hand to hand combat with an entrenched enemy, (where, let’s face it, sometimes, support arriving on scene literally one minute earlier than it might have can make all the difference in the world to the outcome of said engagement).
Would an infantry force with a significant percentage of females making up its numbers have performed to exactly the same degree of effectiveness? Forget the imponderables like fighting effectiveness after the forced march for one moment if you will and consider only how long it took that force to get from ‘A’ to ‘B’.
I'm impressed and not a little in awe of the female medics I see operating with the Brit forces in Afghanistan, but having said that, I think the important word in that question above is 'exactly'. I’m an over 6’ male who passed all the required military physical tests in my youth, but I doubt very much if at the height of my physical fitness, I’d have coped with the loads I saw those soldiers carrying over the distance they carried them and been of any use in a firefight for some time afterwards.
Would an infantry force with a significant percentage of females making up its numbers have performed to exactly the same degree of effectiveness? Forget the imponderables like fighting effectiveness after the forced march for one moment if you will and consider only how long it took that force to get from ‘A’ to ‘B’.
I'm impressed and not a little in awe of the female medics I see operating with the Brit forces in Afghanistan, but having said that, I think the important word in that question above is 'exactly'. I’m an over 6’ male who passed all the required military physical tests in my youth, but I doubt very much if at the height of my physical fitness, I’d have coped with the loads I saw those soldiers carrying over the distance they carried them and been of any use in a firefight for some time afterwards.
