Royalty not happy with RAF - What gives...?
Well said Occasional,
nice to see someone responding to this thread with the seriousness it deserves.
Brand new,
You can slag off the Merlins as much as you want, they can fight their own battles. But I find your remarks about the army being let down by the RAF a little tiresome.
For a member of the AAC (for whom I have a great respect), I dont find your comments stack up against the feedback I have recieved from fellow members of your Corp, especially the Apache guys.
I don't find they strike a chord with the feedback I have recieved from the ground troops we support, often conducting resupplies etc at great risk from weather, terrain or enemy activity.
Better people than you, within the Army you claim to represent, have been very laudatory in their praise of the Chinook Force (which was part of the RAF last time I checked - albeit just)and the MERT (although joint, the MERT has a large RAF presence, including the paramedics.
To that you can add all those rescued by RAF SAR (along with RN), all those conveyed to and from theatres (in dilapitated aircraft long past their sell by date), including the wounded, recieving care from the RAF TMW.
All those who have recieved CAS from the RAF Harriers (along with the RN), and all those who may have been injured had the FP Wing at KAF not been on top of their game.
Much of the RAF work may not be glamourous, and is often undertaken with open ending and ever changing objectives from user units. It also utilises aging aircraft, making some delays inevitable. Mistakes are made, as they are in every other organisation, including your own.
If you wish to throw around accusations, your perogative, they would carry more weight if backed up by examples, rather than general sniping or carping, as this gives the impression of a bitter or inadequate individual.
Yes, the Merlin Force may have made a poor decision to train in the USA, but that does not represent the entire RAF. Please retract or tone down your assertions, or at least back them up with fact.
Enjoy your Sunday.
MGD
nice to see someone responding to this thread with the seriousness it deserves.
Brand new,
You can slag off the Merlins as much as you want, they can fight their own battles. But I find your remarks about the army being let down by the RAF a little tiresome.
For a member of the AAC (for whom I have a great respect), I dont find your comments stack up against the feedback I have recieved from fellow members of your Corp, especially the Apache guys.
I don't find they strike a chord with the feedback I have recieved from the ground troops we support, often conducting resupplies etc at great risk from weather, terrain or enemy activity.
Better people than you, within the Army you claim to represent, have been very laudatory in their praise of the Chinook Force (which was part of the RAF last time I checked - albeit just)and the MERT (although joint, the MERT has a large RAF presence, including the paramedics.
To that you can add all those rescued by RAF SAR (along with RN), all those conveyed to and from theatres (in dilapitated aircraft long past their sell by date), including the wounded, recieving care from the RAF TMW.
All those who have recieved CAS from the RAF Harriers (along with the RN), and all those who may have been injured had the FP Wing at KAF not been on top of their game.
Much of the RAF work may not be glamourous, and is often undertaken with open ending and ever changing objectives from user units. It also utilises aging aircraft, making some delays inevitable. Mistakes are made, as they are in every other organisation, including your own.
If you wish to throw around accusations, your perogative, they would carry more weight if backed up by examples, rather than general sniping or carping, as this gives the impression of a bitter or inadequate individual.
Yes, the Merlin Force may have made a poor decision to train in the USA, but that does not represent the entire RAF. Please retract or tone down your assertions, or at least back them up with fact.
Enjoy your Sunday.
MGD
Fly safe, hope you're watching the cricket!
Your statements always contain an element of truth, albeit from a slightly biased viewpoint at times. However, sweeping statements can often have the reverse effect, trust me I know, Ive made quite a few.
We probably do know each other, and I am sure my impression of you would have been quite different in person compared with how you come across on here sometimes. Therefore, your are not doing yourself full justice, something you may wish to reflect on in future posts.
Fly Safe, and find the safety catch!
Something missing in the story. The Royal Family have alwas been significant users of schedules between Aberdeen and Heathrow when they are going to/from Balmoral. Diana was on a BA 757 one day which got a lightning strike and thus made the news. Someone at BA coordinates it all.
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"In late 2006 Al Udeid inmates particularly enjoyed seeing a RAF 3* and entourage fly in and out of Doha BA Club Class and (I think) stop in a hotel downtown, during yet another a 'morale boosting' visit. We figured they must have desparately struggled to find dates when the half-full 767s from BZZ weren't operating."
Dallas, that was because the trip was undertaken with less than 12 hrs notice, with no AT available and a civilian event in Doha was undertaken as well...
SMT
Dallas, that was because the trip was undertaken with less than 12 hrs notice, with no AT available and a civilian event in Doha was undertaken as well...
SMT
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Brandnew,
much as I understand (and to a degree sympathise) with where you are coming from, perhaps you should direct your vitriol at the politicians of our current government rather than at the RAF. The government's disasterous approach to funding the military has left the RAF in a very difficult place, where constant salami slicing of budgets over the last decade or so (particularly within the DE&S project teams) has left many of our front line capabilities supported by a shoestring, with spares support cut to an absolute minimum. When you are running old, knackered aircraft that break frequently (e.g. VC10, Tristar, Herc K, GR4, Nimrod MR2), with a very limited pool of spares, sometimes they are going to disappoint. Old aeroplanes are a nightmare to keep servicable, particularly when your fleet size is small.
As for the Merlin force, bearing in mind they have just come back from a long and difficult spell in Iraq; is it therefore wrong that they should go somewhere civilised to train for a little while, rather than somewhere in Africa?
I can't help feeling that at times such as these we should be uniting against the common enemies; i.e. the taleban on one hand and our idiot politicians on the other. Inter-service sniping and bickering really doesn't help anyone.
much as I understand (and to a degree sympathise) with where you are coming from, perhaps you should direct your vitriol at the politicians of our current government rather than at the RAF. The government's disasterous approach to funding the military has left the RAF in a very difficult place, where constant salami slicing of budgets over the last decade or so (particularly within the DE&S project teams) has left many of our front line capabilities supported by a shoestring, with spares support cut to an absolute minimum. When you are running old, knackered aircraft that break frequently (e.g. VC10, Tristar, Herc K, GR4, Nimrod MR2), with a very limited pool of spares, sometimes they are going to disappoint. Old aeroplanes are a nightmare to keep servicable, particularly when your fleet size is small.
As for the Merlin force, bearing in mind they have just come back from a long and difficult spell in Iraq; is it therefore wrong that they should go somewhere civilised to train for a little while, rather than somewhere in Africa?
I can't help feeling that at times such as these we should be uniting against the common enemies; i.e. the taleban on one hand and our idiot politicians on the other. Inter-service sniping and bickering really doesn't help anyone.
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So what is the actual role of 32 sqn?
Maybe the sponging waste of space politicians and Civil servants who seam to have priority over evryone for its use should be told to sling their respective hooks and be pointed in the direction of easyjet or ryanair. I seam to remember going past Befast Harbour airport on a friday afternoon and seeing the complement of 32 on the tarmac waiting to fly the arrogant sh1ts back to the mainland.
Maybe the sponging waste of space politicians and Civil servants who seam to have priority over evryone for its use should be told to sling their respective hooks and be pointed in the direction of easyjet or ryanair. I seam to remember going past Befast Harbour airport on a friday afternoon and seeing the complement of 32 on the tarmac waiting to fly the arrogant sh1ts back to the mainland.
I remember when I was at Marham that some selfish, big eared s*d who stays with his mum somewhere close, had the whole place opened up over the xmas hols so he could conveniently fly out for his winter skiing holiday with minimum inconvenience.
Bu**er the poor folks who had to have their xamas ruined, self, self self.
No wonder they have a bad press in some quarters, usually those who have been affected by their selfishness.
Rant over, normal service resumes.
Doc C
Bu**er the poor folks who had to have their xamas ruined, self, self self.
No wonder they have a bad press in some quarters, usually those who have been affected by their selfishness.
Rant over, normal service resumes.
Doc C
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At least 32’s formation flying is current; http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...r-station.html 
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"The RAF aircraft we had lined up is no longer available and, unfortunately, with taxpayers' money etc, we are unable to justify chartering a private aircraft on this occasion as this option is extremely expensive,"
How much does it cost per hour to run a HS125 including the cost of crew, servicing, maintenance etc?
How much is charter fo this? £3000/hr?
A little more expensive NetJets 25 flight Hrs for about £100k but much cheaper if you by a share which gives you short notice to aircraft anywhere with recovery back-up.
I am told plenty of Royals/politicians around the world (maybe for private use I don't know or on friends accounts) have used NetJets.
brandnew:
As for the RAF failing the Army, for every bad example there is I am sure a good one. It is just that the voices of the p155ed off minority are always heard shouting louder than the silent majority.
I'll quote one for the good:
Does anyone in the Army remember when a Tristar crew volunteered to sacrafice their Christmas to fly down to MPA on Christmas eve and recover the charter that had been broken at Brize, arriving back at Brize in the early hours of Boxing day?
And I don't remember any of the troops complaining when we put them up in a hotel when we went U/S on the way into Pristina, or when we diverted into Rhodes on the way back from Jeddah rather than getting them to Cyprus. There was no thread started on pprune with the title "Excellent journey with RAF, even gave us a short break in sunny Rhodes"
Just search pprune for stories of compationate repatriations for a few more examples.
Yes things go wrong sometimes but don't always blame the guys at the coal face for trying to operate with poorly provisioned tools.
You don't see the RAF blaming the Army for not getting a job done because they have been given inadequate resources.
How much does it cost per hour to run a HS125 including the cost of crew, servicing, maintenance etc?
How much is charter fo this? £3000/hr?
A little more expensive NetJets 25 flight Hrs for about £100k but much cheaper if you by a share which gives you short notice to aircraft anywhere with recovery back-up.
I am told plenty of Royals/politicians around the world (maybe for private use I don't know or on friends accounts) have used NetJets.
brandnew:
As for the RAF failing the Army, for every bad example there is I am sure a good one. It is just that the voices of the p155ed off minority are always heard shouting louder than the silent majority.
I'll quote one for the good:
Does anyone in the Army remember when a Tristar crew volunteered to sacrafice their Christmas to fly down to MPA on Christmas eve and recover the charter that had been broken at Brize, arriving back at Brize in the early hours of Boxing day?
And I don't remember any of the troops complaining when we put them up in a hotel when we went U/S on the way into Pristina, or when we diverted into Rhodes on the way back from Jeddah rather than getting them to Cyprus. There was no thread started on pprune with the title "Excellent journey with RAF, even gave us a short break in sunny Rhodes"
Just search pprune for stories of compationate repatriations for a few more examples.
Yes things go wrong sometimes but don't always blame the guys at the coal face for trying to operate with poorly provisioned tools.
You don't see the RAF blaming the Army for not getting a job done because they have been given inadequate resources.
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Yaaaaawwwnnn!! Goverment wont buy new aircraft, RAF operate knackered kit and of course it is their fault. They should be able to perform miracles rather than let EVERYBODY down. Change the record please...... If they could, they would.
Of interest, where do the USA do their training? If it is this place, then it seems like a quality idea to use their facilities. We go back to the same old argument, why stick needles in your own eyes? On operations, life will be tough enough without unneccessary practice bleeding in third world countries. Notice I say unneccessary....... you need to train hard, but why not near a top resort. If you don't NEED to dig in, then Check in maties!!
Of interest, where do the USA do their training? If it is this place, then it seems like a quality idea to use their facilities. We go back to the same old argument, why stick needles in your own eyes? On operations, life will be tough enough without unneccessary practice bleeding in third world countries. Notice I say unneccessary....... you need to train hard, but why not near a top resort. If you don't NEED to dig in, then Check in maties!!
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Amongst other things, Brandnew wrote:
As a spectator and ex mob of many years standing, I can see a bit of both points of view but Brandnew's opinion seems to be that the Merlin crews are themselves responsible for their non presence in Afghanistan. Since when did aircrews/sqns decide where they should operate and when?
I find the expression "War Dodger" distasteful and offensive. Of course, it's not the first time the word Dodgers has been used erroneously and unjustifiably in wartime.
s37
At the same time, Exercise El Centro War-Dodger is taking place, involving medium lift rotary assets. The first Merlin aircrew flight / sub-unit into Afghan will have last served in Iraq OVER A YEAR AGO. The last aircraft left Iraq OVER A MONTH AGO. Why the delay? Some mods need to take place to allow the aircraft to fulfill its full potential, but surely these steely eyed yet freaky helicopter gods can make do with their (rather good) existing capability?
I find the expression "War Dodger" distasteful and offensive. Of course, it's not the first time the word Dodgers has been used erroneously and unjustifiably in wartime.
s37
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Brandnew - although a little off the original thread of whether the horsey one had an aircraft or not, do you really think that this US exercise has been solely sanctioned by the Merlin Force. Surely the JHC, of which you write so fondly, has had the casting vote as to whether or not this Exercise went ahead. When I was in, they seemed to need to get their fingers into most things!
I suggest you look beyond blaming the Merlin guys, who are a good and capable bunch, and look to the leadership of the JHC - no doubt some Army -therein.
I suggest you look beyond blaming the Merlin guys, who are a good and capable bunch, and look to the leadership of the JHC - no doubt some Army -therein.
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Presumably, what some of you chaps are taking a not so gentle side swipe at is;
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/TrainingAndAdventure/RafHelicopterCrewsPrepareForAfghanistan.htm
Is the argument that this could have been completed “anywhere”, whatever the difference in training quality and result? Surely nobody is suggesting that training for a det equals dodging the det?
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/TrainingAndAdventure/RafHelicopterCrewsPrepareForAfghanistan.htm
Is the argument that this could have been completed “anywhere”, whatever the difference in training quality and result? Surely nobody is suggesting that training for a det equals dodging the det?
