Chivenor Seakings to stand down night time rescues
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Just seen how the MOD are going to cover the shortfall
use our neighbours helicopters!!!
BBC NEWS | UK | England | Kent | Belgian helicopter helps diver
use our neighbours helicopters!!!BBC NEWS | UK | England | Kent | Belgian helicopter helps diver
Last edited by leader12uk; 10th Aug 2009 at 12:56. Reason: spelling
This is exactly what the impact of the EUWTD and pathetic manning policy from the MoD will mean more of! For 'RAF helicopter busy' read 'RAF helicopter on 12 hour overnight shifts with no daytime cover'!! This is where we are, robbing Peter to pay Paul
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Crab - it's entirely possible that the Wattisham cab was already tasked when the Belgians got the call, and even if the Wattisham cab was available and at 15 mins readiness, a Belgian cab from Koksijde could probably be on task in the Straights of Dover faster anyway, surely?
It begs the question why we don't have UK SAR assets for such a busy sea lane closer than Wattisham and Lee on Solent, too.
It begs the question why we don't have UK SAR assets for such a busy sea lane closer than Wattisham and Lee on Solent, too.
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How about returning 22 Sqn to Leuchars. 30 minutes is a long wait for a lifeboat or Chopper.
Airborne - the Wattisham cab wasn't tasked, it was, as I said on 12 hour shifts but overnight not daytime.
Green Flash - there is plenty of cross border co-operation in SAR - just as well since moving a SAR flight from Manston to Wattisham was a ludicrous idea - who thought a SAR fl;ight with a 15 min transit to the coast was a good idea?
Our local news has been running a piece on the Chivenor proposals, unfortunately the MoD line is still that newer faster helicopters will meet present response times with fewer bases. Hmmmm
Green Flash - there is plenty of cross border co-operation in SAR - just as well since moving a SAR flight from Manston to Wattisham was a ludicrous idea - who thought a SAR fl;ight with a 15 min transit to the coast was a good idea?
Our local news has been running a piece on the Chivenor proposals, unfortunately the MoD line is still that newer faster helicopters will meet present response times with fewer bases. Hmmmm
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So Crab,
Can I get this straight, the Wattisham crew are only coming to work at night time? Are they then holding a 15 mins readiness all night or simply coming to work in their pyjamas & slippers and straight off to bed at 2200 like the rest of you working 24 hr shifts?
Can I get this straight, the Wattisham crew are only coming to work at night time? Are they then holding a 15 mins readiness all night or simply coming to work in their pyjamas & slippers and straight off to bed at 2200 like the rest of you working 24 hr shifts?
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If Wattisham are permanently stood down during the day, who is covering for RW SAR the Southern end of the East Coast round to the Dover Straights during daylight? Not the Belgians, surely, not that I have anything against them.
airborne - it isn't a permanent situation, just a temporary fix to get over some manning problems - I believe they had Leconfield on 12 hour days and Wattisham on 12 hour nights for a short while to keep the E coast covered.
However, this will become more commonplace if the MoD implement the scheme to man the Falklands on a flight by flight basis and is only happening because MoD thought it was a good idea to reduce us to 4 crews per flight.
Essentially, after Christmas, at any one time there will be 2 RAFSAR flights on 12 hour ops because those flights will have lost a full crew to the Falklands and you can't run 24/7 SAR with 3 crews.
This pretence that the FI is an operational theatre and justifies the assets we have trapped down there is long overdue a review with some probing questions asked of our Lords and Masters.
But in answer to your question - yes the Belgians - Lee is the nearest other flight but I believe the 139 is still waiting for the night over-water winching capability it was supposed to come into service with.
However, this will become more commonplace if the MoD implement the scheme to man the Falklands on a flight by flight basis and is only happening because MoD thought it was a good idea to reduce us to 4 crews per flight.
Essentially, after Christmas, at any one time there will be 2 RAFSAR flights on 12 hour ops because those flights will have lost a full crew to the Falklands and you can't run 24/7 SAR with 3 crews.
This pretence that the FI is an operational theatre and justifies the assets we have trapped down there is long overdue a review with some probing questions asked of our Lords and Masters.
But in answer to your question - yes the Belgians - Lee is the nearest other flight but I believe the 139 is still waiting for the night over-water winching capability it was supposed to come into service with.
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crab
Wrong, the 139 has been able to do this since the phase 5 introduction last Oct/Nov
spr
I believe the 139 is still waiting for the night over-water winching capability
spr
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"Hello, this is __Flight of 22/202 Squadron Search and Rescue. We cannot take your call right now. Please leave your message after the tone" Beep
And really to rub it in, "Your call is important to us". Cue Beethoven's Third Symphony.
And really to rub it in, "Your call is important to us". Cue Beethoven's Third Symphony.
Any comment from the Boulmer point of view?
In Feb 2007, when the train crash happened in the Lake District, Boulmer sent one aircraft, Leconfield sent one aircraft, and Valley sent two (even though 2nd Standby had formally finished for the day, a scratch crew was found for the second aircraft).
With the new manning level of 4 crews per flight, the possibility of finding a crew for the spare aircraft will vanish.
Were the train crash to be repeated after 2012, Boulmer would be unable to send an aircraft (night-time). Valley would only have one crew available, who might or might not be somewhere in Wales doing a job in Chivenor's patch. Leconfield would be able to send an aircraft, but by doing so the ARCC would leave no cover along the east coast between Lossiemouth and Wattisham!
Discuss.
Apart from the reduction in SAR cover, which will - as Crab says - end up costing lives at some point, what seems most daft about the whole proposal, is that dropping to 12-hr ops will save only pennies. To save a worthwhile amount of money, one would need to totally close a base. Not that I am advocating this...
Yes, Him
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On the night shift, are crews allowed to sleep and be at, say, 15min readiness or do you all sit around wide awake and waiting for a call? If allowed to sleep a la civvy fire service could you realistically maintain 24hr coverage with four crews per flight?
Any particular reason for the sudden (?) shortage of SAR crews?
Any particular reason for the sudden (?) shortage of SAR crews?
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Gainsey, this gov't has done away with sleeping firemen too.
All beds have been removed and some stations have been converted to "part-time volunteer" status overnight.
Now the few remaining "overnight" fire crews are expected to undertake "cleaning duties" or complete the paperwork outstanding after all the clerical staff were removed.
Oh yes, and "due to more modern equipment" the crews have been reduced from 5 to 4 per appliance in some areas. 1 to drive it and man the pump. 1 to monitor the BA crews and 2 guys to actually fight the fire.
This despite the fact that the appliances in question were designed around 5-7 man crews. Ho-hum.
Anyway, what makes us think the SAR fleet would escape unscathed from good 'ol Gordos f***-ups.
All beds have been removed and some stations have been converted to "part-time volunteer" status overnight.
Now the few remaining "overnight" fire crews are expected to undertake "cleaning duties" or complete the paperwork outstanding after all the clerical staff were removed.
Oh yes, and "due to more modern equipment" the crews have been reduced from 5 to 4 per appliance in some areas. 1 to drive it and man the pump. 1 to monitor the BA crews and 2 guys to actually fight the fire.
This despite the fact that the appliances in question were designed around 5-7 man crews. Ho-hum.
Anyway, what makes us think the SAR fleet would escape unscathed from good 'ol Gordos f***-ups.
Gainsey, we are RS 15 from 0800 to 2200 and then RS 45 from 2200 to 0800 which allows us to sleep (well, until the job phone goes that is). I believe the civvySAR crews do overnight from home but that would affect reaction times compared to sleeping on the flight so we don't do it - well not yet but it might be in the pipeline along with RS 75 at night but we will see.
You can run 24/7 SAR with 4 crews but not if you have to man the Falklands (especially on a flt by flt basis) and not if you have to comply with the EUWTD.
This is not one of Gordon's f***ups, this is all home-grown from the MoD.
You can run 24/7 SAR with 4 crews but not if you have to man the Falklands (especially on a flt by flt basis) and not if you have to comply with the EUWTD.
This is not one of Gordon's f***ups, this is all home-grown from the MoD.
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This is a the article from the Northumberland Gazette:
Rescue cover at night threatened - Northumberland Today
A RADICAL review of helicopter search and rescue operations across the UK could leave RAF Boulmer providing only day-time cover, Government Ministers have admitted.
Under a Private Finance Initiative bid, two consortia are now in the running to supply both the Ministry of Defence and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) with a single fleet of ultra-modern aircraft from 2012.
Known as Search and Rescue Harmonisation (SAR-H), it could also include emergency helicopter services operated by the Royal Navy and the offshore oil industry.
But the MoD has confirmed that RAF Boulmer's current 24-hour watch by its Sea King crews would be halved under the programme, with any night missions instead being flown from RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland or RAF Leconfield in east Yorkshire.
The move was first revealed by Defence Minister Quentin Davies in a letter to Cornish MP Andrew George, who was concerned about the impact on his local station at Royal Marines Base Chivenor, in North Devon.
This week, Mr Davies and the MoD sought to justify the plans, saying that the new helicopters would out-perform the old yellow RAF workhorses which had provided search and rescue cover for the last three decades.
But community leaders in Northumberland have demanded assurances that lives will not be put at risk.
Unitary councillor for Longhoughton, John Taylor, whose ward includes RAF Boulmer, said: "I am absolutely appalled and very angry about this development, which is to effectively privatise search and rescue.
"This is a return to the problems faced by RAF Boulmer when it was earmarked for closure, and I strongly believe that taking search and rescue out of the hands of the station will threaten its future survival.
"Privatising that facility, which has played a vital and integral role in the local community, will be like lopping an arm or a leg off."
And he added: "I seriously wonder whether this will be the first step towards charging for search and rescue."
North Northumberland MP Sir Alan Beith said: "I have asked the Minister to provide evidence in support of this decision as I am extremely concerned that the North East could be left without vital helicopter cover at night, especially since the air ambulance cannot fly at night and the police helicopter cannot winch.
"It is not long since a decision was made to close RAF Boulmer and I got this reversed as the figures did not add up.
"I shall be looking closely at this situation to ensure costly mistakes –in terms of public safety and money – will not be made."
But Mr Davies said: "In light of the capability of these new helicopters, we have been able to conclude that we can continue to provide effective and responsive coverage for all night-time incidents utilising only nine of the 12 bases.
"Additionally, historical data shows that the level of incidents falls markedly from the daytime peaks.
“This will still enable us to meet, and indeed exceed, previous historical concurrency and surge incident levels at night-time across the UK, when we transition in to the new service from 2012.”
An MoD spokesman said: “In the light of the capability of these new helicopters we will continue to provide effective and responsive coverage including any surges in night-time incidents.” WHAT HARMONISATION MEANS SAR-H will take over at sites progressively, starting with the Coastguard sites in 2012 and follow on with the MoD sites.
Using modern helicopters, the aim is to enable faster transit times to incidents, resulting in reductions in response times around the UK.
Nine bases will remain on 24-hour alert, with the remaining three offering day-time cover.
Two bidders are in the running – the Soteria Consortium, comprising of CHC, Thales and the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS), and AirKnight, consisting of Lockheed Martin UK, VT Group and British International Helicopters.
Soteria has chosen the Sikorsky S-92, the aircraft currently being used by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency for search and rescue operations from Sumbergh in the Shetland Islands and Stornoway in the Outer Hebrides.
Airknight has chosen the Eurocopter EC225, known as the Super Puma.
Rescue cover at night threatened - Northumberland Today
A RADICAL review of helicopter search and rescue operations across the UK could leave RAF Boulmer providing only day-time cover, Government Ministers have admitted.
Under a Private Finance Initiative bid, two consortia are now in the running to supply both the Ministry of Defence and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) with a single fleet of ultra-modern aircraft from 2012.
Known as Search and Rescue Harmonisation (SAR-H), it could also include emergency helicopter services operated by the Royal Navy and the offshore oil industry.
But the MoD has confirmed that RAF Boulmer's current 24-hour watch by its Sea King crews would be halved under the programme, with any night missions instead being flown from RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland or RAF Leconfield in east Yorkshire.
The move was first revealed by Defence Minister Quentin Davies in a letter to Cornish MP Andrew George, who was concerned about the impact on his local station at Royal Marines Base Chivenor, in North Devon.
This week, Mr Davies and the MoD sought to justify the plans, saying that the new helicopters would out-perform the old yellow RAF workhorses which had provided search and rescue cover for the last three decades.
But community leaders in Northumberland have demanded assurances that lives will not be put at risk.
Unitary councillor for Longhoughton, John Taylor, whose ward includes RAF Boulmer, said: "I am absolutely appalled and very angry about this development, which is to effectively privatise search and rescue.
"This is a return to the problems faced by RAF Boulmer when it was earmarked for closure, and I strongly believe that taking search and rescue out of the hands of the station will threaten its future survival.
"Privatising that facility, which has played a vital and integral role in the local community, will be like lopping an arm or a leg off."
And he added: "I seriously wonder whether this will be the first step towards charging for search and rescue."
North Northumberland MP Sir Alan Beith said: "I have asked the Minister to provide evidence in support of this decision as I am extremely concerned that the North East could be left without vital helicopter cover at night, especially since the air ambulance cannot fly at night and the police helicopter cannot winch.
"It is not long since a decision was made to close RAF Boulmer and I got this reversed as the figures did not add up.
"I shall be looking closely at this situation to ensure costly mistakes –in terms of public safety and money – will not be made."
But Mr Davies said: "In light of the capability of these new helicopters, we have been able to conclude that we can continue to provide effective and responsive coverage for all night-time incidents utilising only nine of the 12 bases.
"Additionally, historical data shows that the level of incidents falls markedly from the daytime peaks.
“This will still enable us to meet, and indeed exceed, previous historical concurrency and surge incident levels at night-time across the UK, when we transition in to the new service from 2012.”
An MoD spokesman said: “In the light of the capability of these new helicopters we will continue to provide effective and responsive coverage including any surges in night-time incidents.” WHAT HARMONISATION MEANS SAR-H will take over at sites progressively, starting with the Coastguard sites in 2012 and follow on with the MoD sites.
Using modern helicopters, the aim is to enable faster transit times to incidents, resulting in reductions in response times around the UK.
Nine bases will remain on 24-hour alert, with the remaining three offering day-time cover.
Two bidders are in the running – the Soteria Consortium, comprising of CHC, Thales and the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS), and AirKnight, consisting of Lockheed Martin UK, VT Group and British International Helicopters.
Soteria has chosen the Sikorsky S-92, the aircraft currently being used by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency for search and rescue operations from Sumbergh in the Shetland Islands and Stornoway in the Outer Hebrides.
Airknight has chosen the Eurocopter EC225, known as the Super Puma.
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Whatever we do we must never ever get to a point that we charge for SAR. We would end up in a situation whereby a boat gets into difficulties, does not call it in, it gets worse, coastguard mandates a SAR launch in much worse circumstances and people die.
Am I over dramatising? Think it would never happen?
Then Google "Penlee lifeboat" or "Solomon Browne."
Those unpaid volunteers that man the orange boats - the wake you see when they are moving at speed is not the boat, it's from their Balls. Big, Round, Shiny and Solid ones.
And we still do not pay them.......
We need SAR cover 24/7. Fact. Someone please drop the muppet responsible in a liferaft 5 miles out in a force 8 with a big sea at night and tell them that budgie will be out in the morning......
Problem solved.
Am I over dramatising? Think it would never happen?
Then Google "Penlee lifeboat" or "Solomon Browne."
Those unpaid volunteers that man the orange boats - the wake you see when they are moving at speed is not the boat, it's from their Balls. Big, Round, Shiny and Solid ones.
And we still do not pay them.......
We need SAR cover 24/7. Fact. Someone please drop the muppet responsible in a liferaft 5 miles out in a force 8 with a big sea at night and tell them that budgie will be out in the morning......
Problem solved.
I don't believe they have any new figures and are basing their plans on old studies which were used to try and justify closing bases completely to save money.
The bid which inlcuded the EH101 was predicated on this idea that a faster helicopter would allow similar response times to incidents further away thus allowing a larger area of Ops and fewer bases.
The problem with this idea is that to follow the logic properly you would have to re-site all the bases to optimise response times - that would clearly be too expensive and the answer is to close some of the existing bases (or in this case reduce operating hours) and try to ignore the very big gaps in overlap for concurrent ops that it leaves because you have only met half the reuqirements the operational analysis demands.
It also ignores the very real fact that historical data is exactly that and is only of limited use when planning future capability - in order to provide the sort of cover the UK presently enjoys and to have sufficient surge and concurrency capability, fewer bases is not the sensible choice - especially since under SARH there will be no second standby aircraft and crew; something that the RAF have provided (serviceability permitting) for many years and has proven its worth when the unexpected (Boscastle, Gloucester, Sheffield, Lake District train crash, etc etc) happens.
It also assumes that the weather will always permit rapid straight-line transits to the far away jobs which is most certainly not the case in my experience and ignores the fact that to jump from job to job still requires refuelling, especially when going from one extreme of your patch (or someone elses) to another.
Sadly the lies, damn lies and statistics brigade have only addressed single response times which looks good on paper (especially to those ignorant of what real SAROPs entail) and appeals to the bean-counters.
Sapper - are you sure? We have been carrying extra map cover for over a year to allow for Solent and Channel night jobs. Has the Phase 5 been cleared for use?
The bid which inlcuded the EH101 was predicated on this idea that a faster helicopter would allow similar response times to incidents further away thus allowing a larger area of Ops and fewer bases.
The problem with this idea is that to follow the logic properly you would have to re-site all the bases to optimise response times - that would clearly be too expensive and the answer is to close some of the existing bases (or in this case reduce operating hours) and try to ignore the very big gaps in overlap for concurrent ops that it leaves because you have only met half the reuqirements the operational analysis demands.
It also ignores the very real fact that historical data is exactly that and is only of limited use when planning future capability - in order to provide the sort of cover the UK presently enjoys and to have sufficient surge and concurrency capability, fewer bases is not the sensible choice - especially since under SARH there will be no second standby aircraft and crew; something that the RAF have provided (serviceability permitting) for many years and has proven its worth when the unexpected (Boscastle, Gloucester, Sheffield, Lake District train crash, etc etc) happens.
It also assumes that the weather will always permit rapid straight-line transits to the far away jobs which is most certainly not the case in my experience and ignores the fact that to jump from job to job still requires refuelling, especially when going from one extreme of your patch (or someone elses) to another.
Sadly the lies, damn lies and statistics brigade have only addressed single response times which looks good on paper (especially to those ignorant of what real SAROPs entail) and appeals to the bean-counters.
Sapper - are you sure? We have been carrying extra map cover for over a year to allow for Solent and Channel night jobs. Has the Phase 5 been cleared for use?