RAF Merlins crews unwilling to go to Afghanistan?
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RAF Merlins crews unwilling to go to Afghanistan?
'Combat ban' for Afghanistan helicopters - Telegraph
Surely the boys in light blue aren't trying to weedle their way out of their time in the desert because they don't have enough ballistic protection?!
"I don't want people to come back strapped into their seats with bullet holes in them" - Oh really, probably best to avoid jumping into a Sea King then.....
I'm sure the top brass were happy that this was 'leaked' out. Are the Crab merling boys/girls aware the Royal Navy have been out there for the last two years with even less ballistic protection then the Mk3 Merlin currently has, but you haven't found them whingeing....
Sometimes you have to get on and do the job with what you have...
Light the touchpaper....
Surely the boys in light blue aren't trying to weedle their way out of their time in the desert because they don't have enough ballistic protection?!
"I don't want people to come back strapped into their seats with bullet holes in them" - Oh really, probably best to avoid jumping into a Sea King then.....
I'm sure the top brass were happy that this was 'leaked' out. Are the Crab merling boys/girls aware the Royal Navy have been out there for the last two years with even less ballistic protection then the Mk3 Merlin currently has, but you haven't found them whingeing....
Sometimes you have to get on and do the job with what you have...
Light the touchpaper....
More bang for your buck
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The MOD have been pilloried for not supplying enough body armour to troops, not fitting fire quenching equipment to fuel tanks, etc etc, if they send out poorly armoured helicopters and they loose some then they will be pilloried again me thinks. So it's in the interests of all concerned to up the armour plating to a high level.
The trouble is of course that means they have to admit they got it wrong in the first place
The trouble is of course that means they have to admit they got it wrong in the first place
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Without going into too much detail, haven't the safety critical areas of the aircraft already been identified and protected? The trouble with armour is that it is heavy and in hot and high conditions, extra weight is even more burdensome. Therefore some kind of compromise is required. Is the threat in Afghanistan so different from Iraq that operations in the former theatre are acceptable but not in the latter?
The whole ballistic protection debate needs to be argued carefully. Yes, thanks to its' superior performance, the Chinook can carry a significant amount of armour in the cabin, and fuel, and payload. The Merlin can do two out of three. So, you can up-armour a Merlin (or SK/NH90/S-92 etc) and carry a warload to the other side of Kandahar or you can take a combat-configured load a meaningful distance with inferior cabin protection. The trade-off is that to generate the same effect in an armoured cab you need to fly more sorties - hence increasing your exposure to the enemy and the risks entailed with dust landings, not to mention reducing the combat effectiveness of the troops that you leave on the first wave...
Agincourt/Mick, yes, Afg is VERY different to Iraq; the kinetic threat is far greater and the density altitude robs platforms of a significant degree of performance (and with that the ability to carry armour and remain mission effective).
Merlin did a good job in Boz and Iraq, and the folly of the Tory decision to buy it in 1995 (and NuLabour's sticking plaster 3As a couple of years ago...) is only now being revealed as the cab will gasp a lot in Afg. That said, if you apply the ac in appropriate roles in Afg it can still deploy succesfully - just don't expect it to replace the Chinook as the platform of choice for direct assault ops.....
What would armchair generals have said if Herc crews had moaned and leaked the lack of ESF prior to TELIC? "Man Up"? "It'll never happen"? "Transport ac don't get shot at"? "Whinging crabs"?
I don't agree with how it's been done, but the debate is now in the open and somebody high up the chain will now have to shoulder the risk rather than sloping it.
Agincourt/Mick, yes, Afg is VERY different to Iraq; the kinetic threat is far greater and the density altitude robs platforms of a significant degree of performance (and with that the ability to carry armour and remain mission effective).
Merlin did a good job in Boz and Iraq, and the folly of the Tory decision to buy it in 1995 (and NuLabour's sticking plaster 3As a couple of years ago...) is only now being revealed as the cab will gasp a lot in Afg. That said, if you apply the ac in appropriate roles in Afg it can still deploy succesfully - just don't expect it to replace the Chinook as the platform of choice for direct assault ops.....
What would armchair generals have said if Herc crews had moaned and leaked the lack of ESF prior to TELIC? "Man Up"? "It'll never happen"? "Transport ac don't get shot at"? "Whinging crabs"?
I don't agree with how it's been done, but the debate is now in the open and somebody high up the chain will now have to shoulder the risk rather than sloping it.
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Evalu8tor,
A good post - as each Merlin Mk3's Zero Fuel Weight creeps further to the right, its effectivness as a battlefield helicopter will diminish.
AA
The Merlin can do two out of three.
the density altitude robs platforms of a significant degree of performance
the folly of the Tory decision to buy it in 1995
AA
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Last night on the BBC 10pm news they had some breaking story about a report due out the regarding the MoD, which i believe is causing a bit of a stir.
Its not finished yet, but apparently the muppets (sorry Political
s) claim the MoD is badly organised and not very good at its job on equipment purchasing.
I do find that a little rich considering the situation the Muppets have got us involved in. If only they could do a good job of running this country.
V1
Its not finished yet, but apparently the muppets (sorry Political
s) claim the MoD is badly organised and not very good at its job on equipment purchasing.I do find that a little rich considering the situation the Muppets have got us involved in. If only they could do a good job of running this country.
V1
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I thought the Danish Merlins were MK3As? Higher specced MK3As at that.
If so, someone in procurement most probably took the decision a while back NOT to go for kevlar armour, penny pinching again.
Lessons are only learned in individual stove pipes, or so it would seem.
BTW we got these Merlins in order to jump the queue because we were short of choppers, anyone know when the Danes are receiving their replacement Merlins?
If so, someone in procurement most probably took the decision a while back NOT to go for kevlar armour, penny pinching again.
Lessons are only learned in individual stove pipes, or so it would seem.
BTW we got these Merlins in order to jump the queue because we were short of choppers, anyone know when the Danes are receiving their replacement Merlins?
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Nigegilb,
You are correct about the first part the second part is debatable. However, I think it is a red herring - as far as I am aware (someone please correct me if I am wrong) there are no current plans to deploy them to Afghanistan - support of a mixed Mk3/3A fleet would be a nightmare, as I imagine Benson is discovering.
The replacement aircraft WE (UK MOD) are procuring for the Danes are nearing completion at Yeovil.
There were plenty of people in the Merlin IPT who questioned the wisdom of the decision to buy the aircraft from the Danes, particularly on the terms that were eventually agreed. (Short term political expediency set against the logistical problems of operating two subtly but significantly different marks of aircraft as a single fleet.) Unfortunately they did not get much say in the decision making process
I thought the Danish Merlins were MK3As? Higher specced MK3As at that.
The replacement aircraft WE (UK MOD) are procuring for the Danes are nearing completion at Yeovil.
There were plenty of people in the Merlin IPT who questioned the wisdom of the decision to buy the aircraft from the Danes, particularly on the terms that were eventually agreed. (Short term political expediency set against the logistical problems of operating two subtly but significantly different marks of aircraft as a single fleet.) Unfortunately they did not get much say in the decision making process
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Merlin HC3A
Nige. Try this report from RAF Benson for 78 Sqn Merlin HC3A. MoD does know about the need for ballistic protection but it may not have got high enough up the ladder to be fitted before the aircraft is needed in Th.
For the Danish Merlins, MoD stated in Mar 07:
The original document was signed on 30 Mar 07 and the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) was reported to have been signed in June 2007 with the Royal Danish Air Force. 2 years later, I don't remember the Western Morning News hailing the 1st departure of a RDAF Merlin from 'Vile this summer.
For the Danish Merlins, MoD stated in Mar 07:
The six new build aircraft will be built at AgustaWestland's Yeovil facility for the UK MoD who will then deliver the aircraft to the Royal Danish Air Force to replace the original aircraft. The first of these new build aircraft will be delivered to Denmark 24 months after the contract signature.
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OK so the Danish are now receiving their new Merlins BEFORE the MoD/Danish merlins are entering service in Afg. I wonder which nation got the priority on the production line? Anyone know if our IPT is involved in the replacement Merlins for Denmark?
It would appear that MoD is under huge pressure to get these Merlins into service (one year late to date) and that the replacements may well have taken priority, meaning our Merlins have not been modded in time.
This leaves commanders in an unenviable position, I am referring to XV179 and the knowing deployments of aircraft NOT fit for purpose.
P**S Up, Brewery?
It would appear that MoD is under huge pressure to get these Merlins into service (one year late to date) and that the replacements may well have taken priority, meaning our Merlins have not been modded in time.
This leaves commanders in an unenviable position, I am referring to XV179 and the knowing deployments of aircraft NOT fit for purpose.
P**S Up, Brewery?
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It would appear that MoD is under huge pressure to get these Merlins into service (one year late to date) and that the replacements may well have taken priority, meaning our Merlins have not been modded in time.
The Merlin Project Team is fully (albeit reluctantly in some quarters) involved in providing the Danes with replacement aircraft. It was widely predicted by some members of the IPT (before it was disIntegrated) that buiding new aircraft would be a quicker (and probably cheaper) process than buying second hand aircraft from the Danes and converting them to Mk3As.
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Can someone explain the difference between ballistic protection and full kevlar please?
With regards to what calibre and type of threat aircraft could or could not withstand.
With regards to what calibre and type of threat aircraft could or could not withstand.
Heathen Sol,
WRT calibres / types etc, in a word - No.
If you need to know then you already do....
Kevlar is just one type of armour, you could also use ceramic or good old steel plate. Each has advantages and disadvantages for rotary applications.
I'm not getting specifically at the Merlin; the "2 out of 3" comment applies to all rotorcraft in Afg - Even the mighty CH47 won't be carrying 55 troops in LFO, full tanks and BP over there. It's just that if your disposable payload is relatively small, things like BP rapidly eat into it.
WRT calibres / types etc, in a word - No.
If you need to know then you already do....
Kevlar is just one type of armour, you could also use ceramic or good old steel plate. Each has advantages and disadvantages for rotary applications.
I'm not getting specifically at the Merlin; the "2 out of 3" comment applies to all rotorcraft in Afg - Even the mighty CH47 won't be carrying 55 troops in LFO, full tanks and BP over there. It's just that if your disposable payload is relatively small, things like BP rapidly eat into it.
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I have had my concerns about helo self-protection for some time, but have not dared go public because of Talib stated intent to bring down coalition helos in theatre. It is not very clever to expose ANY weakness in public or to explore the detail. Regarding RN aircraft, I have intimate knowledge of how RN handled the mid-air tragedy at the start of GW2, the disgraceful way the families were kept in the dark. They will not get away with it again, I urge anyone to listen to R4 File on 4 recent program.
The real problem here, for a "can do" UK military is that there is a job to be done, in achieving the task, safety is having to take a back seat, because, relatively speaking, the risks soldiers are having to take on the ground are far greater.
MoD has learned nothing from the Nimrod, Herk, or Sea King tragedies.
Whatever happens, commanders will be criticised. Deploy Merlin crews without adequate protection, or keep them out of theatre and watch more soldiers being blown up in vehicles without adequate protection.
This is what happens when gung ho military planners, generals and clueless politicians launch into a war without proper funding, equipment or manpower.
Questions;
Has Westland been leaned so much there is no capacity for parallel production line?
If no, does the Danish order have priority over our own?
Who is paying the slippage for any delay in delivery schedule for the replacement Merlins bought by Denmark?
Is the forthcoming training mission to California, actually a trial because there is limited read across on clearances between MK3 and MK3A?
Is training/conversion still required from MK3 to MK3A?
Would it have been a better idea to simply have ordered more MK3s?
The real problem here, for a "can do" UK military is that there is a job to be done, in achieving the task, safety is having to take a back seat, because, relatively speaking, the risks soldiers are having to take on the ground are far greater.
MoD has learned nothing from the Nimrod, Herk, or Sea King tragedies.
Whatever happens, commanders will be criticised. Deploy Merlin crews without adequate protection, or keep them out of theatre and watch more soldiers being blown up in vehicles without adequate protection.
This is what happens when gung ho military planners, generals and clueless politicians launch into a war without proper funding, equipment or manpower.
Questions;
Has Westland been leaned so much there is no capacity for parallel production line?
If no, does the Danish order have priority over our own?
Who is paying the slippage for any delay in delivery schedule for the replacement Merlins bought by Denmark?
Is the forthcoming training mission to California, actually a trial because there is limited read across on clearances between MK3 and MK3A?
Is training/conversion still required from MK3 to MK3A?
Would it have been a better idea to simply have ordered more MK3s?
Last edited by nigegilb; 7th Aug 2009 at 12:01.
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Heathen Sol - Agree with other posts, afraid that sort of information is not for the public domain, who knows your first name could be Terry....
Surely the 'risk' with the RN SK's has been borne by JHC, not by the RN given that they are a Land asset, so why do the Merlin's not come under the same 'umbrella'?!
Incidentally, it could be worse, you could be flying a bag. You'd be lucky just to get off the ground in the summer.
Interestingly I recall a certain VVIP who wasn't transported in a SK last year in AFG, because the SK wasn't deemed 'safe' enogh with regards ballistic protection - thats nice to know when its strapped to your backside....
Surely the 'risk' with the RN SK's has been borne by JHC, not by the RN given that they are a Land asset, so why do the Merlin's not come under the same 'umbrella'?!
Incidentally, it could be worse, you could be flying a bag. You'd be lucky just to get off the ground in the summer.
Interestingly I recall a certain VVIP who wasn't transported in a SK last year in AFG, because the SK wasn't deemed 'safe' enogh with regards ballistic protection - thats nice to know when its strapped to your backside....