Sikorsky outing the MoD
Avoid imitations
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Whilst the aircraft themselves maybe cheaper and they might be delivered to a certain date, how long would it take (and cost) to clear the aircraft to UK standards?
Puma upgrade? We went down this route before. Some of those airframes are ancient - surely it's time to buy a new product.
The debacle over the entry into service of the Chinook Mk2 was a disgrace, the Mk3 even worse because it failed.
MOD and the Treasury have been "farting about" for decades over a Puma replacement. Their indecision is finally costing very dear, now in lives as well as in financial terms.
Crews apart, if there are insufficient airframes now, upgrading will only reduce the numbers further.
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But you will get that if you introduce a new type as you have to train crews air and ground and provide the support infrastructure both on and of base.
The Years of under investment in support helicopters across all 3 services are now biting. Coupled with the missplaced assumptions that have been the cornerstone of British defence policy since the end of the cold war.
The Years of under investment in support helicopters across all 3 services are now biting. Coupled with the missplaced assumptions that have been the cornerstone of British defence policy since the end of the cold war.
What current front line task would you like the SH fleet to stop supporting in order to bring a new helo fleet into service en masse?
So a gradual rolling conversion from Puma to Blackhawk solves the crewing problem. But is Blackhawk the right platform, and can we reduce the 'Boscome Factor'?
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Does MOD really, really, intend to upgrade a helicopter (330J equivalent) that came into RAF service in the early 70's? It seems so daft that I must have misunderstood the previous posts!!
Slight bit of thread creep here, but am I being completely niaive in wondering why we don't licence build more international products, thereby saving defence manufacturing and servicing/update work but finally realising that unlike 50/60 years ago, we are no longer in a position to develop aircraft that are at the cutting edge of aviation, although we may have the technology for the avionics.
to think it was 33 years ago I was posted onto them
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FareastdriverQuote:
to think it was 33 years ago I was posted onto them
38 years for me. I loved it, fantastic helicopter and still is. Now being in the civil world I have no qualifications to voice my opinion as to what the RAF should use now. What I do know is that the Puma is dead. The Makila engined Puma Mk 2 is dead. Go for something that fits in with the modern world. Not the Blackhawk, something with 21st Century thinking.
to think it was 33 years ago I was posted onto them
38 years for me. I loved it, fantastic helicopter and still is. Now being in the civil world I have no qualifications to voice my opinion as to what the RAF should use now. What I do know is that the Puma is dead. The Makila engined Puma Mk 2 is dead. Go for something that fits in with the modern world. Not the Blackhawk, something with 21st Century thinking.
Mind you was it not the Westminster? that Westands proposed, it took the Wessex design, nailed it together with s-56 bits, threw the engines on the roof and put the cockpit where the engines were. so it looked like a seaking mated to the back end of a wessex..... Is in the book Project Cancelled.
Here you go, totally reduced the need for armour as bullets simply whistle through gaps. There was even an enclosed version.
Westland "Westminster" helicopter - development history, photos, technical data
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What about a "Super" Blackhawk?
I agree with your common thrust the Puma is too old an airframe to waste good money on, and whilst under going upgrade the cabs won't be available. A one helo option to cover both heavy lift and medium lift/assault is not going to work either....
The solution has to be a mixed fleet and it has to be a common airfram to meet both the needs of the RAF and the FAA. We managed to do this in the past when we had a common medium support helo - it was the much-loved Wessex.
What we need now is a modern equivalent.....
The arguement must be for a common airframe, compact enough to fit on board various ships, LPD, RFA's, Ocean, Bulwark etc. which can lift say a fully-equipped troop/section/patrol totalling up to say 12/14 "pairs of boots" - plus crewman and 2 pilots.
I would say it would need:
* two "big" engines rather than three as in the case of Merlin, CH53, Super Frelon.
* a wheeled, crash-worthy, undercarriage.
* Big doors on both sides of the fuselage.
* Folding main rotors and tail on a "hinge" to reduce deck space when embarked or hold space when being air transported.
* Provision for external stores/tanks for long-range missions/jamming pods/weapons
* Capable of fitting in the hold of a C-17 without main rotor head removal.
* Have enough performance to cope with "hot & high" places.
The Blackhawk ticks most of these boxes, but hasn't the cabin space of say a Sea King 4. Just as the F18 was scaled-up to become the Super Hornet the obvious answer, is to look at a scaled-up Blackhawk with a useful load of say 5,000lbs.
The sad thing is that we pioneered the use of helicopters in airborne ops, (remember Suez?) and the RAF and FAA used helicopters extensively in Borneo, Aden and the Falklands. Everyone seems to have forgotten how vital helicopters are in modern ops and that they really are essential, not just for inserting and extracting troops, but also re-supply, and casualty evacuation.
I know that there are other options, but the CH47 is perhaps too big and in any case a mixed fleet is inevitable as it is better to have the flexibility of say a fleet of 50 medium ac, rather than 25 heavy lift Chinooks. (How often do CH47's actually fly at max gross?)
Just my 2 pence worth.....
MB
The solution has to be a mixed fleet and it has to be a common airfram to meet both the needs of the RAF and the FAA. We managed to do this in the past when we had a common medium support helo - it was the much-loved Wessex.
What we need now is a modern equivalent.....The arguement must be for a common airframe, compact enough to fit on board various ships, LPD, RFA's, Ocean, Bulwark etc. which can lift say a fully-equipped troop/section/patrol totalling up to say 12/14 "pairs of boots" - plus crewman and 2 pilots.
I would say it would need:
* two "big" engines rather than three as in the case of Merlin, CH53, Super Frelon.
* a wheeled, crash-worthy, undercarriage.
* Big doors on both sides of the fuselage.
* Folding main rotors and tail on a "hinge" to reduce deck space when embarked or hold space when being air transported.
* Provision for external stores/tanks for long-range missions/jamming pods/weapons
* Capable of fitting in the hold of a C-17 without main rotor head removal.
* Have enough performance to cope with "hot & high" places.
The Blackhawk ticks most of these boxes, but hasn't the cabin space of say a Sea King 4. Just as the F18 was scaled-up to become the Super Hornet the obvious answer, is to look at a scaled-up Blackhawk with a useful load of say 5,000lbs.
The sad thing is that we pioneered the use of helicopters in airborne ops, (remember Suez?) and the RAF and FAA used helicopters extensively in Borneo, Aden and the Falklands. Everyone seems to have forgotten how vital helicopters are in modern ops and that they really are essential, not just for inserting and extracting troops, but also re-supply, and casualty evacuation.
I know that there are other options, but the CH47 is perhaps too big and in any case a mixed fleet is inevitable as it is better to have the flexibility of say a fleet of 50 medium ac, rather than 25 heavy lift Chinooks. (How often do CH47's actually fly at max gross?)
Just my 2 pence worth.....
MB
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H-92
While we seem to be playing this helo version of Fantasy Football, while the MoD keeps the ball, didn’t the Military version (H-92) get flogged around Europe last year without a single order?
To date, has anyone placed a military order, other than Canada’s 28x CH-148 Cyclone?
To date, has anyone placed a military order, other than Canada’s 28x CH-148 Cyclone?
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EC725
As I've said before, I think a little balance is required here! Lots of Apples and Oranges being compared again; new aircraft with old!
My gut feeling is if that the Puma LEP is the right option. However, if the MOD was lookinging for a cheap but capable new helicopter to replace the Puma and Sea King, it wouldn't go far wrong with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_EC_725. It may look like a Puma, but it is a completely different beast. In fact, it is so good and so reliable (after all, it's had 40 years of improvement) that its giving them a big problem in trying to sell the NH90, a helicopter it outperforms. It has none of the vices of the present Puma but many of the virtues. It has powerful engines with anticipators and a wider undercarriage that allows ship borne ops. http://www.aviationtoday.com/rw/military/utility/1733.html
EC are building them at a fast rate of knots down at Marignane and, because there are some 600 of the family in service, spares and through-life costs are probably great value. Despite the recent incident in the North Sea, it is likely to be the aircraft of choice for the off-shore oil business for the foreseeable future. Brazil has just procured 50 of them at about £15M a go which compares very favourably with the £10M (published price of £300M divided by 30) we are about to spend on refurbing the present fleet.
With the AW149 being a high risk option technically, Black Hawk being too small internally, Merlin being too big for some roles and almost twice as expensive, the 725 is a great option. The price and the fact the production line is already up and running (and possibly could be duplicated in this country as the supply chain is already in place) make it a good runner. The RAF might even so priority in set-up qualification assistance if the MOD was able to lever some of the goodwill which EADS owes them with respect to A400M delays
If the EC225 (the civi version) gets selected for SAR H, SAR-H bidders announce helicopter types | Shephard Group - who knows, there may even be some savings to be had on crew training as we move aircrew between roles.
By the way, I don't work for EC or EADS, have any connection with the programme (or SAR H) or have any vested interests! Just think some balance is required.
My gut feeling is if that the Puma LEP is the right option. However, if the MOD was lookinging for a cheap but capable new helicopter to replace the Puma and Sea King, it wouldn't go far wrong with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_EC_725. It may look like a Puma, but it is a completely different beast. In fact, it is so good and so reliable (after all, it's had 40 years of improvement) that its giving them a big problem in trying to sell the NH90, a helicopter it outperforms. It has none of the vices of the present Puma but many of the virtues. It has powerful engines with anticipators and a wider undercarriage that allows ship borne ops. http://www.aviationtoday.com/rw/military/utility/1733.html
EC are building them at a fast rate of knots down at Marignane and, because there are some 600 of the family in service, spares and through-life costs are probably great value. Despite the recent incident in the North Sea, it is likely to be the aircraft of choice for the off-shore oil business for the foreseeable future. Brazil has just procured 50 of them at about £15M a go which compares very favourably with the £10M (published price of £300M divided by 30) we are about to spend on refurbing the present fleet.
With the AW149 being a high risk option technically, Black Hawk being too small internally, Merlin being too big for some roles and almost twice as expensive, the 725 is a great option. The price and the fact the production line is already up and running (and possibly could be duplicated in this country as the supply chain is already in place) make it a good runner. The RAF might even so priority in set-up qualification assistance if the MOD was able to lever some of the goodwill which EADS owes them with respect to A400M delays
If the EC225 (the civi version) gets selected for SAR H, SAR-H bidders announce helicopter types | Shephard Group - who knows, there may even be some savings to be had on crew training as we move aircrew between roles.
By the way, I don't work for EC or EADS, have any connection with the programme (or SAR H) or have any vested interests! Just think some balance is required.
Last edited by Nomad72; 5th Aug 2009 at 23:11.
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H-92? Careful how the contract is written with the vendor!
Edited to fix url. What has proone got against b-l-o-g-s-p-o-t?
Edited to fix url. What has proone got against b-l-o-g-s-p-o-t?
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FIRST CYCLONE HELICOPTERS TO BE DELIVERED WILL BE IN TROOP TRANSPORT CONFIGURATION
By Dave Pugliese 05-16-2009 COMMENTS(4) David Pugliese’s Defence Watch
Filed under: Cyclone maritime helicopter
The most recent issue of Air International is reporting that Sikorsky plans to deliver--and the Crown will accept ---the first batch of CH-148 Cyclones in a troop transport configuration, a Defence Watch reader noted in an email to me yesterday.
I went on Air International’s website but they didn’t have an electronic version of the story (or one that I could see anyways…..if anyone has it please send the link).
The reader noted the following comment:
“The article goes on to report that the ASW system selected for the CH-148 is not yet ready to use. After the many delays, penalties and false starts the Forces aren't going to get an ASW capable platform? What was the point of it all? ...
FIRST CYCLONE HELICOPTERS TO BE DELIVERED WILL BE IN TROOP TRANSPORT CONFIGURATION - David Pugliese?s Defence Watch
By Dave Pugliese 05-16-2009 COMMENTS(4) David Pugliese’s Defence Watch
Filed under: Cyclone maritime helicopter
The most recent issue of Air International is reporting that Sikorsky plans to deliver--and the Crown will accept ---the first batch of CH-148 Cyclones in a troop transport configuration, a Defence Watch reader noted in an email to me yesterday.
I went on Air International’s website but they didn’t have an electronic version of the story (or one that I could see anyways…..if anyone has it please send the link).
The reader noted the following comment:
“The article goes on to report that the ASW system selected for the CH-148 is not yet ready to use. After the many delays, penalties and false starts the Forces aren't going to get an ASW capable platform? What was the point of it all? ...
FIRST CYCLONE HELICOPTERS TO BE DELIVERED WILL BE IN TROOP TRANSPORT CONFIGURATION - David Pugliese?s Defence Watch
Incredible upgrades
Lingo Dan
You obviously missed the whole Nimrod MRA4 thing?
The MoD is simply doing what the rest of us do when we want a shiny new sports car but haven't got the cash (and the HP opportunities for mil helos is scarce). You keep your old banger running, year after year, hoping it will get through the MoT and spending as little as possible in the meantime. We might strap on a new stereo, or even fit a "gold seal" reconditioned engine, but realistically all we can do is hold back the rust as long as possible. Still, there are some really old Transit vans still doing the rounds, so there must be life in the old Puma!
Simples!
Does MOD really, really, intend to upgrade a helicopter (330J equivalent) that came into RAF service in the early 70's? It seems so daft that I must have misunderstood the previous posts!!
The MoD is simply doing what the rest of us do when we want a shiny new sports car but haven't got the cash (and the HP opportunities for mil helos is scarce). You keep your old banger running, year after year, hoping it will get through the MoT and spending as little as possible in the meantime. We might strap on a new stereo, or even fit a "gold seal" reconditioned engine, but realistically all we can do is hold back the rust as long as possible. Still, there are some really old Transit vans still doing the rounds, so there must be life in the old Puma!
Simples!
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Scrappage scheme proves a big hit
NH. Unless this Govt's sponsored scrappage scheme can be extended to include helicopters, the family car argument is a tad flawed.
MM4. I would relate the use of SK4 and SKASAC to the old RN adage of Make Do and Mend. We have always made best use of what we have, with and more often without sufficient ballistic protection. I would also propose that the need in Th demands that the 'Fisheads have had to take their much loved family car'.
For the Puma, I would expect the Joint Helicopter Command as users to lead, push, struggle and do their best to manage a Capability Integration Working Group for the introduction of the Pu LEP. Meanwhile, it is fun to marvel at the flights of fancy and speculation about what new rotary magnificance could be purchased from scratch, complete with comfy front seats for the armchair warriors.
MoD has stated what it intends to do:
That means no alternatives are under consideration, today, and by this Govt. It would suggest that the Pu LEP comprises Makila 1A1 ECUs (1,800shp so not better), glass cockpit (well mostly glass), standard cabin (not stretched), 4 (not 5) blade main rotor and no sign of an option to hang additional fuel tanks or anything else outside. Does it mean that there would be commonality in a future Afghanistan between UK, FR, GE and NL Pumas?
Doh! I'll go and dig out my 'housewife'.
MM4. I would relate the use of SK4 and SKASAC to the old RN adage of Make Do and Mend. We have always made best use of what we have, with and more often without sufficient ballistic protection. I would also propose that the need in Th demands that the 'Fisheads have had to take their much loved family car'.
For the Puma, I would expect the Joint Helicopter Command as users to lead, push, struggle and do their best to manage a Capability Integration Working Group for the introduction of the Pu LEP. Meanwhile, it is fun to marvel at the flights of fancy and speculation about what new rotary magnificance could be purchased from scratch, complete with comfy front seats for the armchair warriors.
MoD has stated what it intends to do:
The U.K. Ministry of Defence has awarded Eurocopter a GBP250 million contract to upgrade 33 Puma helicopters over the next five years. Most of the work will be completed at Eurocopter's plant in Brasov, Romania, to achieve "best value for money for the MoD," although the contract's prime contractor will be Eurocopter U.K.
The upgrade will comprise new 1,800 shp Turbomeca Makila engines, a new avionics suite including autopilot and communications suite, plus a full airframe overhaul. The Puma entered service in 1971, making many nearly 40 years old already. The upgrade will extend their service life by at least another 13 years to take their end-of-life phase-out beyond 2022.
The upgrade will comprise new 1,800 shp Turbomeca Makila engines, a new avionics suite including autopilot and communications suite, plus a full airframe overhaul. The Puma entered service in 1971, making many nearly 40 years old already. The upgrade will extend their service life by at least another 13 years to take their end-of-life phase-out beyond 2022.
Doh! I'll go and dig out my 'housewife'.
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Puma plans
Interesting thread, guys.
It just seems such a waste trying to to keep 1970's technology flying for the next 20 years for the same price as introducing something new and shiny, provided that there is some commonality with the existing fleet.....?
maybe some more Merlins would be the sensible compromise - direct copies of course......
It just seems such a waste trying to to keep 1970's technology flying for the next 20 years for the same price as introducing something new and shiny, provided that there is some commonality with the existing fleet.....?
maybe some more Merlins would be the sensible compromise - direct copies of course......
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