Crew Fatigue : Own Up or Man Up?
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Crew Fatigue : Own Up or Man Up?
Over on the Rumours and News forum, a long thread has developed regarding a recent(ish) incident. The crew of an A340 did their takeoff calculations with a 100 ton error in the aircraft's takeoff weight. The result was a tailstrike followed by multiple impacts with obstacles beyond the departure end of the runway as the aircraft clawed it's way into the air. In short, a very narrowly averted disaster. Cited as a contributary factor was the fact that the captain had slept 3.5 hrs in the previous 24.
The posts on the afforementioned thread fall loosely into two categories, namely:
1) With that level of fatigue he should have declared himself unfit for duty. Regardless of the pressure to get the job done, saftey always comes first.
2) Knackered is normal and not reason enough to scrub the trip. Double check things if you're tired but fatigue is part of the job.
As military aircrew in time of conflict, we are under considerable pressure to get the job done. That said, quality rest before flying is often impossible.
My questions are:
How much support do you think you would get from the command chain if you assessed the risk to be unnacceptable and cancelled or delayed a sortie due to fatigue?
How much extra risk should we accept in an operational theatre? Is it OK to bend or break peacetime rules at time of war?
I'd be interested in your thoughts.
The posts on the afforementioned thread fall loosely into two categories, namely:
1) With that level of fatigue he should have declared himself unfit for duty. Regardless of the pressure to get the job done, saftey always comes first.
2) Knackered is normal and not reason enough to scrub the trip. Double check things if you're tired but fatigue is part of the job.
As military aircrew in time of conflict, we are under considerable pressure to get the job done. That said, quality rest before flying is often impossible.
My questions are:
How much support do you think you would get from the command chain if you assessed the risk to be unnacceptable and cancelled or delayed a sortie due to fatigue?
How much extra risk should we accept in an operational theatre? Is it OK to bend or break peacetime rules at time of war?
I'd be interested in your thoughts.
I clearly remember on one of those seemingly interminable 10 day NATO exercises coming to the end of a long spell on standby when we had already flown a longish sortie. It was unlikely, but not impossible, that we would have to fly again. I remember remarking to my captain (a flight commander) that I was already unfit to fly having had virtually no sleep for the previous 24 hours except for the odd catnap in a noisy crewroom . It was made pretty clear to me that if I declared myself unfit this would be letting the crew and the squadron down, and I should just buck up (this was an exercise remember, not a shooting war). I vowed then that would be the last time I would admit to being too tired to fly, but I don't somehow think that the interests of flight safety were best served. I doubt if things have changed. Time of war - yes rules can be bent, but if you bend them in peacetime conditions, whose neck goes on the block when things go wrong - the poor sod who made the mistake or the exec who applied the moral pressure?
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The military were and still are a special group who have to be exempted from many (but not all) civilian H&S regulations. This is particularly pertinant in a war zone but equally applied in the "cold war" exercise days. I remember only too clearly the scenario drawn by TT above, and the "encouragement" from the Boss. When I was non flying SFSO for Tacevals etc., I had the authority to suggest flight safety principles to the various bosses and often there was a way to mitigate fatigue.
To answer the questions for todays aircrew and support personel is probably beyond my competence, particularly as I have no idea as to the format or intensity of todays exercises. Notwithstanding my ignorance I feel that war time operations demand exceptional effort from everyone and that if rules have to be bent to achieve the task, so be it. Training and exercises must be conducted with flight safety as the priority.
Who carries the can (or should) if things go wrong? In my experience and still valid today, it must be the Sqn Cdr.
A little simplistic perhaps, but I was fairly brief.
To answer the questions for todays aircrew and support personel is probably beyond my competence, particularly as I have no idea as to the format or intensity of todays exercises. Notwithstanding my ignorance I feel that war time operations demand exceptional effort from everyone and that if rules have to be bent to achieve the task, so be it. Training and exercises must be conducted with flight safety as the priority.
Who carries the can (or should) if things go wrong? In my experience and still valid today, it must be the Sqn Cdr.
A little simplistic perhaps, but I was fairly brief.
I have finished taking days on HERRICK and quite happily slept standing up, though at least our efforts allow the guys on the ground to see the night through with ammo to see the night out.
It's a trade off based on some very grown up decisions. The most important thing is for those who are fatigued to speak up so those in charge can man up.
It's a trade off based on some very grown up decisions. The most important thing is for those who are fatigued to speak up so those in charge can man up.
Champagne anyone...?
Is it OK to bend or break peacetime rules at time of war?
I generally try and remind myself what part it is my sortie plays in the grand scheme of things, what impact my saying no would have on ops and balance that against how tired etc I actually am. People that get precious about crew duty/rest and try and apply the minutiae of the regs generally need to have a bit of a chat with themselves and perhaps should be reminded of what it is they're involved in. Interestingly they're generally the people who will happily smash it up til all hours on a Vegas nightstop without subsequent complaint.
Any gibbon can quote the rule book but an effective, military operator in a time of war needs to be able to interpret and apply them realistically to ensure that the job gets done. At the same time, the command chain (and support staff) need to recognise this and ensure that the tasking given to crews is sensible and that at least a modicum of thought has gone into it (to be honest, this is where these things generally fall down with crews facing poorly thought out loads and pointless repetitive re-roles).
If you're not able to interpret and effectively apply the rules in a time of high tempo ops then poke off to EasyJet or 216
PS. As for the chap and his A340, he should have said no but one would have to ask why he'd only had 3.5hrs sleep. If the company had put him in a hotel that was still being built or was over a nightclub then it's easier to say no and lay it at the feet of the company. If however he'd been on the lash or deliberately chose to engage in activities that prevented him sleeping then would have question his suitability to command large jets full of people...
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I understand what SS is saying, but are we at war?
Or are we just busting a gut because we are under-resourced?
Who are we to just go off and break GASOs? Surely, if that is the case, then we need to change the rules or get dispensation from up high?
Way I see it, its not my right, to the crew or the PAX to go outside of GASOs. I dont own that risk, someone with more braid and higher pay owns the risk, not me.
If the guy with the braid is reluctant to auth, I am reluctant to fly. Simple as.
Or are we just busting a gut because we are under-resourced?
Who are we to just go off and break GASOs? Surely, if that is the case, then we need to change the rules or get dispensation from up high?
Way I see it, its not my right, to the crew or the PAX to go outside of GASOs. I dont own that risk, someone with more braid and higher pay owns the risk, not me.
If the guy with the braid is reluctant to auth, I am reluctant to fly. Simple as.
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I agree with SS and the sentiments about needing the flexibility to operate to your own limits during a 'sensible, operational task'. Is a routine AT flight back from a peaceful country in the Middle East the same thing? I understand that there is a worrying blur regarding adherence to ASOs between operational environments and routine AT flights in busy civilian domestic airspace. Once pax are out of an IMMEDIATE threat environment 'normal' crew duty rules should apply. It is not the responsibility of those AT crews getting people home to do so 'at all costs' just because we are under re-sourced. 
Although there are some parrallels, the civil situation is different. In my time, the 2 Gp GASOs had crew duty limitations which followed CAP371 - The Avoidance of Fatigue in Aircrews. This document is itself not limiting but it does lay down guidelines for which CAA approved operations manual duty and fatigue avoidance procedures are laid down.
I know the GASOs were peacetime limits only and there isn't much peacetime flying these days. But the difference between civil and military is that although exercises and operations are concentrated effort, they don't go on forever. The civil pilot will be faced with his debilitating work pattern for the whole of his working life. While in the RAF, I flew exercises and operations where I got very fatigued. But the short term nature of these meant that the fatigue was largely acute. Chronic fatigue sets in over a period of months and when you put acute fatigue on top of chronic fatigue, then you really are entering the danger zone.
After my 16 years was up, I started Long haul passenger, then long haul freight and have now settled into the much more benign world of short haul pax. In my long haul career, I acheived levels of fatigue I hadn't seen in the military.
And someone mentioned he couldn't understand why the Captain of the EK 340 only got 3 1/2 hours sleep. This is what I wrote on the thread regarding the incidient.
"Take this example of a pattern I was very familiar with.
Departure from LHR at about 7pm UK time. Land at JFK about 10pm NY time, but 2am body clock time. By the time you get to the hotel, it's now 4am body time. Go to bed. Wake up at 3am NY time which is 8am body time because it's when you usually get up and the wake up time your circadian rhythem is programmed for. So you've just had four hours sleep.
You mooch around for most of the morning, then at about 1pm NY time you go back to bed and try to sleep. Except you can't because it's 6pm body time and you're circadian rythem says it's not time to sleep yet.
It's now 5pm NY time and the wake up call goes off which is a bit of a b#gger because you finally dropped off to sleep about 20 minutes ago. You get up, go to the airport for the 8pm NY departure time, for which you aren't feeling at your best for because it's now 1am UK and body time and you have had 4 hours and twenty minutes of low quality sleep in the last 36. You now fly for 7 hours back to LHR landing at 8am feeling like death.
Now imagine you do this 5 or 6 times a month, for 900 flying hours a year, but not always to New York. Perhaps to other time zones in the opposite direction. Now some of you now may begin to understand how this pilot felt at the start of his duty."
However, there may be some some justification for working hard in operational circumstances, but to risk your life and others by flying too hard in an exercise to help your Flight Commander get his promotion, that's nuts.
I know the GASOs were peacetime limits only and there isn't much peacetime flying these days. But the difference between civil and military is that although exercises and operations are concentrated effort, they don't go on forever. The civil pilot will be faced with his debilitating work pattern for the whole of his working life. While in the RAF, I flew exercises and operations where I got very fatigued. But the short term nature of these meant that the fatigue was largely acute. Chronic fatigue sets in over a period of months and when you put acute fatigue on top of chronic fatigue, then you really are entering the danger zone.
After my 16 years was up, I started Long haul passenger, then long haul freight and have now settled into the much more benign world of short haul pax. In my long haul career, I acheived levels of fatigue I hadn't seen in the military.
And someone mentioned he couldn't understand why the Captain of the EK 340 only got 3 1/2 hours sleep. This is what I wrote on the thread regarding the incidient.
"Take this example of a pattern I was very familiar with.
Departure from LHR at about 7pm UK time. Land at JFK about 10pm NY time, but 2am body clock time. By the time you get to the hotel, it's now 4am body time. Go to bed. Wake up at 3am NY time which is 8am body time because it's when you usually get up and the wake up time your circadian rhythem is programmed for. So you've just had four hours sleep.
You mooch around for most of the morning, then at about 1pm NY time you go back to bed and try to sleep. Except you can't because it's 6pm body time and you're circadian rythem says it's not time to sleep yet.
It's now 5pm NY time and the wake up call goes off which is a bit of a b#gger because you finally dropped off to sleep about 20 minutes ago. You get up, go to the airport for the 8pm NY departure time, for which you aren't feeling at your best for because it's now 1am UK and body time and you have had 4 hours and twenty minutes of low quality sleep in the last 36. You now fly for 7 hours back to LHR landing at 8am feeling like death.
Now imagine you do this 5 or 6 times a month, for 900 flying hours a year, but not always to New York. Perhaps to other time zones in the opposite direction. Now some of you now may begin to understand how this pilot felt at the start of his duty."
However, there may be some some justification for working hard in operational circumstances, but to risk your life and others by flying too hard in an exercise to help your Flight Commander get his promotion, that's nuts.
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Well shed Shtoppers,
In AFG the Detco can call any crew at anytime to do a casevac, yes, technically, we might be out of "crew hours" but I will fly the a/c even if it means I'm a "little bit tired"
Could anyone reading this thread, actually stand up in Wooty B High St and say " sorry Mrs, abahrt yre son and all that but y'now, its more than me jobs wurth, and all that and I'm out of hours............
In AFG the Detco can call any crew at anytime to do a casevac, yes, technically, we might be out of "crew hours" but I will fly the a/c even if it means I'm a "little bit tired"
Could anyone reading this thread, actually stand up in Wooty B High St and say " sorry Mrs, abahrt yre son and all that but y'now, its more than me jobs wurth, and all that and I'm out of hours............
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My 2p:
GASOs are not 'peacetime' rules, they're orders which always 'apply to you' (even if you quite rightly and with full consent of your supervisors choose not to follow them) -- AOC 2Gp is your AOA no matter where you're flying and in what circumstances.
There are no end of circumstances when we choose to fly contrary to those orders. It's almost always appropriate to flag this up on the auth sheet before going (and perhaps ask someone else to auth if you're not overly happy with all aspects of this, or you at least want to make the point that you had made others aware), and often note in the misrep afterwards, so the ACC tasking you knows what you're having to do to complete his missions. If you don't do this, you're not 'risk managing' correctly -- risk management involves those above you being aware of the risks. If you hide them, you're not managing risk, you're just taking a chance, and we've seen people caught out with that too many times already.
GASOs are not 'peacetime' rules, they're orders which always 'apply to you' (even if you quite rightly and with full consent of your supervisors choose not to follow them) -- AOC 2Gp is your AOA no matter where you're flying and in what circumstances.
There are no end of circumstances when we choose to fly contrary to those orders. It's almost always appropriate to flag this up on the auth sheet before going (and perhaps ask someone else to auth if you're not overly happy with all aspects of this, or you at least want to make the point that you had made others aware), and often note in the misrep afterwards, so the ACC tasking you knows what you're having to do to complete his missions. If you don't do this, you're not 'risk managing' correctly -- risk management involves those above you being aware of the risks. If you hide them, you're not managing risk, you're just taking a chance, and we've seen people caught out with that too many times already.
Last edited by DaveyBoy; 27th Jul 2009 at 10:08.
Yes, Him
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Some of the views on this topic are quite interesting when contrasted with the views expressed about the, arguably knackered, US Navy CO who wrecked his EP-3.
http://http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/379667-co-writes-off-p-3-a.html
http://http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/379667-co-writes-off-p-3-a.html
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Ignore the regulations?
Q. Why do we have regulations?
A. To prevent us from making the same mistakes as our predecessors!
Q. Can we ignore these regulations in wartime?
A. Yes. You can ignore them for a justifiable reason in wartime and in peacetime operations (see front of JSP550).
Q. Is it wise to ignore them?
A. No. You are increasing the risk beyond ALARP, thus putting lives at risk; yours and others in the air and on the ground.
We are a Military Force with Military Regulations to do a Military Task. Therefore the regulations apply all the time and when the rulebook gets thrown out of the window on Ops. that's when it all goes wrong.
Furthermore, if you don't 'fess-up to being knackered, you will probably kill someone; more than likely, yourself!
A. To prevent us from making the same mistakes as our predecessors!
Q. Can we ignore these regulations in wartime?
A. Yes. You can ignore them for a justifiable reason in wartime and in peacetime operations (see front of JSP550).
Q. Is it wise to ignore them?
A. No. You are increasing the risk beyond ALARP, thus putting lives at risk; yours and others in the air and on the ground.
We are a Military Force with Military Regulations to do a Military Task. Therefore the regulations apply all the time and when the rulebook gets thrown out of the window on Ops. that's when it all goes wrong.
Furthermore, if you don't 'fess-up to being knackered, you will probably kill someone; more than likely, yourself!
Champagne anyone...?
No one is suggesting throwing the rule book out of the window (although much of it does need it) - that is indeed daft and generally leads to smoking holes in the countryside. Notwithstanding mealy mouthed talk of "managing" and "owning" risk 
there is still an element of the buck that stops with you, the aircraft captain. You have to manage that and decide if and how the rules apply to your immediate situation. You're employed not as a droid to regurgitate the rule book but as an intelligent, responsible (responsible to both your crew and pax but also to the overall military effort at hand) officer who should be able to make intelligent, informed decisions within the guidance of said rule book.
You need to decide if you have had enough rest and if you and your crew are fit to operate. The default option of the quoting the black and white rule book verbatim merely serves to identify you as a wheelchock that has become self aware. If you get 4 hours kip, are woken by a mortar attack for an hour or so and then get another 4 hours kip do you delay your subsequent departure? Or do you accept that as a fact of deployed life and get on with it? I'd suggest the latter; note it in the auth sheets/misrep if it makes you feel better but it's worth reminding yourself that the folk servicing, loading and guarding your aircraft all experienced the disturbance too. The ACC may indeed note that you were disturbed by a rocket attack but I don't for a minute expect him to ring the Taliban and ask them to stop.
I'll also reiterate that as well as making decisions on your own fitness to operate you need to maintain a sensible approach to the tasking. Getting airborne when you're borderline knackered simply to deliver a pallet of nets is not a sensible use of anyone's time or assets and again this comes down to you, the aircraft captain to make the call.
As for the difference between the operational theatre and general trash hauling - sure, if you've worked a 17 hour day out to the States and your subsequent min ground time is disturbed by the accomodation being rebuilt around you then you're within your rights to delay to get some decent sleep. If, on the other hand, your sleep is disturbed by you ripping the arse out of Vegas til the early hours then you don't have the right to delay. My massive gripe with the AT fleet (and i've been in it for 14 years and a captain for 11) are the pondlife that pick and choose between these two scenarios as it suits them. If your crew rest is excessively disrupted by say, a rocket attack, then you are either fit to complete your subsequent tasking back to the UK or you're not. You're not fit to operate as far as a comfy Middle Eastern airport before poking off down to the local hotel leaving all your pax in the rubb hangar for the night.
there is still an element of the buck that stops with you, the aircraft captain. You have to manage that and decide if and how the rules apply to your immediate situation. You're employed not as a droid to regurgitate the rule book but as an intelligent, responsible (responsible to both your crew and pax but also to the overall military effort at hand) officer who should be able to make intelligent, informed decisions within the guidance of said rule book.You need to decide if you have had enough rest and if you and your crew are fit to operate. The default option of the quoting the black and white rule book verbatim merely serves to identify you as a wheelchock that has become self aware. If you get 4 hours kip, are woken by a mortar attack for an hour or so and then get another 4 hours kip do you delay your subsequent departure? Or do you accept that as a fact of deployed life and get on with it? I'd suggest the latter; note it in the auth sheets/misrep if it makes you feel better but it's worth reminding yourself that the folk servicing, loading and guarding your aircraft all experienced the disturbance too. The ACC may indeed note that you were disturbed by a rocket attack but I don't for a minute expect him to ring the Taliban and ask them to stop.
I'll also reiterate that as well as making decisions on your own fitness to operate you need to maintain a sensible approach to the tasking. Getting airborne when you're borderline knackered simply to deliver a pallet of nets is not a sensible use of anyone's time or assets and again this comes down to you, the aircraft captain to make the call.
As for the difference between the operational theatre and general trash hauling - sure, if you've worked a 17 hour day out to the States and your subsequent min ground time is disturbed by the accomodation being rebuilt around you then you're within your rights to delay to get some decent sleep. If, on the other hand, your sleep is disturbed by you ripping the arse out of Vegas til the early hours then you don't have the right to delay. My massive gripe with the AT fleet (and i've been in it for 14 years and a captain for 11) are the pondlife that pick and choose between these two scenarios as it suits them. If your crew rest is excessively disrupted by say, a rocket attack, then you are either fit to complete your subsequent tasking back to the UK or you're not. You're not fit to operate as far as a comfy Middle Eastern airport before poking off down to the local hotel leaving all your pax in the rubb hangar for the night.
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StopStart
While I see where you are coming from, I would take issue with part of your comment. If you are unfit for routine, non-emergency work due to fatigue, whatever the cause for it, you are duty bound to delay the flight. Anything else is dangerous. If you choose to put yourself in that position by carousing the Strip/Sunset Blvd/Oz equivalent then that is a serious issue with professionalism and airmanship isn't it?
Likewise, on the mil side, if the crew are knackered and the mission non-essential then the mission should not be flown by that crew. Ideally, the mission plot should be altered to allow for another crew to fly that sortie or it should be delayed.
I am not naive enough to think that this situation is possible or likely in the current op tempo with the overstretch we are experiencing. As SLF either on MERT or doing Aeromed missions, we have similar issues in the back with fatigue but no rule book (whether outside or inside the window) to fall back on other than the general rules of professional conduct set out by our registering body (Gen Med Council/ Nursing & Midwifery Council). Research is being undertaken at the moment (those current 99/101/216 Sqn people may have seen the laptop with the testing software) to try and quantify the levels of fatigue. I will be interested to see how the issue will be managed when this research is completed.
I think the rules can be bent/broken/destroyed when operational necessity dictates but this should be a decision for higher authority (notwithstanding the a/c capt is making the final go decision)
Obviously these are non-pilot views and our CRM lags years behind the aircrew.
I stand by for correction/flaming
BtD
While I see where you are coming from, I would take issue with part of your comment. If you are unfit for routine, non-emergency work due to fatigue, whatever the cause for it, you are duty bound to delay the flight. Anything else is dangerous. If you choose to put yourself in that position by carousing the Strip/Sunset Blvd/Oz equivalent then that is a serious issue with professionalism and airmanship isn't it?
Likewise, on the mil side, if the crew are knackered and the mission non-essential then the mission should not be flown by that crew. Ideally, the mission plot should be altered to allow for another crew to fly that sortie or it should be delayed.
I am not naive enough to think that this situation is possible or likely in the current op tempo with the overstretch we are experiencing. As SLF either on MERT or doing Aeromed missions, we have similar issues in the back with fatigue but no rule book (whether outside or inside the window) to fall back on other than the general rules of professional conduct set out by our registering body (Gen Med Council/ Nursing & Midwifery Council). Research is being undertaken at the moment (those current 99/101/216 Sqn people may have seen the laptop with the testing software) to try and quantify the levels of fatigue. I will be interested to see how the issue will be managed when this research is completed.
I think the rules can be bent/broken/destroyed when operational necessity dictates but this should be a decision for higher authority (notwithstanding the a/c capt is making the final go decision)
Obviously these are non-pilot views and our CRM lags years behind the aircrew.
I stand by for correction/flaming
BtD
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Surely it is incumbent on all within the military to both recognise when they are unfit for duty for whatever purpose and to flag it up. Similarly, their superiors/chain of command have to engender a decent level of responsibility and two way trust. When Bloggs pitches in and says he can't fly/drive/fix/control because of fatigue then that should be taken at face value and respected. There is no such thing as Crown Immunity anymore. We are all, at every level, professional and should behave as such. Leaders such as Officers and NCOs must promote this at all levels.
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Stop Start you confuse me.
Are you saying the crew you refer to should have stayed in a war zone with their passengers for another period of disturbed crew rest rather than proceed to their next planned destination which is safe?
The captain did everything you allude to in your post, assessed the situation, the amount of rest his crew had received and their level of fatigue. He made a decision that it was not sensible to accept a 5 hour crew duty extension to get passengers out of a SAFE environment. This decision has subsequently been supported by his chain of command up to the highest level.
"Any gibbon can quote the rule book but an effective, military operator in a time of war needs to be able to interpret and apply them realistically to ensure that the job gets done." I agree, but there is not a war in OOMS.
If you're not able to interpret and effectively apply the rules in a time of high tempo ops then your no bloody use to 216 Sqn.
Are you saying the crew you refer to should have stayed in a war zone with their passengers for another period of disturbed crew rest rather than proceed to their next planned destination which is safe?
The captain did everything you allude to in your post, assessed the situation, the amount of rest his crew had received and their level of fatigue. He made a decision that it was not sensible to accept a 5 hour crew duty extension to get passengers out of a SAFE environment. This decision has subsequently been supported by his chain of command up to the highest level.
"Any gibbon can quote the rule book but an effective, military operator in a time of war needs to be able to interpret and apply them realistically to ensure that the job gets done." I agree, but there is not a war in OOMS.
If you're not able to interpret and effectively apply the rules in a time of high tempo ops then your no bloody use to 216 Sqn.
Champagne anyone...?
TP
I confuse you? How’s about you lot join the rest of RAF and accept the fact that there may be minor, infrequent disturbances during the crew rest period however that’s just a fact of life on deployed ops. The numerous Herc and RW crews out there seem to cope (and have done for the last 6 years +) and they put in far more arduous days/nights than certain others I care not to mention.
Fine, matey boy made his decisions based on what he knew and he’s supported by all and sundry. Tick VG. Personally, I just wouldn’t be able to hold my head up and tell my pax that having just rescued them from the “warzone” we were now all going to poke off down to the hotel for a bit of high-fiving in the pool to recover from our stressful day. Still, each to their own.
I laughed so hard so wee came out. Keep up the good work – I look forward to my next interminable delay somewhere safe.
Grabbers
Correct. If you're too knackered to fly then you are duty bound to flag it up. If on the other hand, Ascot ring you by mistake in the middle of the night for less than a minute do you apply the rules and delay for another 14 hours or do you shrug it off and go back to sleep?
Bob the Doc
See my reply to Grabbers above. If you are unfit to operate then you don't. End of. I'm interested in the fatigue resaerch you mention though although how's about it includes the Herc crews based in theatre who work stupid hours? That would skew the stats somewhat...
People are missing the point slightly here. There is a chain of decision making required before the rule book can be lobbed out the window. The aircraft captain is integral to this and you can't just dodge it all off onto the senior hired help.
I confuse you? How’s about you lot join the rest of RAF and accept the fact that there may be minor, infrequent disturbances during the crew rest period however that’s just a fact of life on deployed ops. The numerous Herc and RW crews out there seem to cope (and have done for the last 6 years +) and they put in far more arduous days/nights than certain others I care not to mention.
Fine, matey boy made his decisions based on what he knew and he’s supported by all and sundry. Tick VG. Personally, I just wouldn’t be able to hold my head up and tell my pax that having just rescued them from the “warzone” we were now all going to poke off down to the hotel for a bit of high-fiving in the pool to recover from our stressful day. Still, each to their own.
If you're not able to interpret and effectively apply the rules in a time of high tempo ops then your no bloody use to 216 Sqn.
Grabbers
Correct. If you're too knackered to fly then you are duty bound to flag it up. If on the other hand, Ascot ring you by mistake in the middle of the night for less than a minute do you apply the rules and delay for another 14 hours or do you shrug it off and go back to sleep?
Bob the Doc
See my reply to Grabbers above. If you are unfit to operate then you don't. End of. I'm interested in the fatigue resaerch you mention though although how's about it includes the Herc crews based in theatre who work stupid hours? That would skew the stats somewhat...
People are missing the point slightly here. There is a chain of decision making required before the rule book can be lobbed out the window. The aircraft captain is integral to this and you can't just dodge it all off onto the senior hired help.
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StopStart
I agree totally and I don't think I am missing the point. If Ascot Ops do call you mistakenly and you are disturbed then only you can decide whether that will impinge on your ability to do your job safely. Leadership at all levels has to promote that. Of course, would sufficient assets in theatre with sufficient personnel to operate them help negate the insidious over tasking that promotes this sort of debate? That is a totally different thread...
I agree totally and I don't think I am missing the point. If Ascot Ops do call you mistakenly and you are disturbed then only you can decide whether that will impinge on your ability to do your job safely. Leadership at all levels has to promote that. Of course, would sufficient assets in theatre with sufficient personnel to operate them help negate the insidious over tasking that promotes this sort of debate? That is a totally different thread...