Fury at Def Sec over Helicopter Shortage
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"He pledges that the govenment will "listen and learn" but his Tx button is stuck and he plainly cannot Receive......."
I disagree, Brown is actually very weak. He's has caved in on a number of issues in the last few months. Ghurkas, Post Office, ID Cards to name a few. If this pressure can be maintained I'd expect an order for Merlins in the next week or so. Particularly as the MOD was already looking to buy new rather than keep the Pumas going. Bin the Pumas and start training their crews etc on Merlins. Push the levels of availability up on Merlins by turning on the spares tap.
I disagree, Brown is actually very weak. He's has caved in on a number of issues in the last few months. Ghurkas, Post Office, ID Cards to name a few. If this pressure can be maintained I'd expect an order for Merlins in the next week or so. Particularly as the MOD was already looking to buy new rather than keep the Pumas going. Bin the Pumas and start training their crews etc on Merlins. Push the levels of availability up on Merlins by turning on the spares tap.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 430 Likes
on
227 Posts
We were talking about replacing the Puma with Blackhawks in the early 1980s. Rolls Royce even modified the RTM 322 to fit and first flew it in 1986. After over 25 years I think the replacement now a little overdue.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just thought.....In WWII we never had helicopters, paras/soldiers were dropped from a/c. Having said that, and after viewing CNN/BBC news footage (I might have missed something) but I've not seen any tanks?
The (possibly edited) clips I've viewed are soldiers firing 'one to one' against the Taliban. Where are the tanks? Surely they are still used to attack enemy lines (on open ground) before the soldiers advancement.
The (possibly edited) clips I've viewed are soldiers firing 'one to one' against the Taliban. Where are the tanks? Surely they are still used to attack enemy lines (on open ground) before the soldiers advancement.
Rebel PPRuNer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 51
Posts: 2,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
given the way the polls are going and the casualty count in dead as well as physical and mental injuries is rising, the Canadian public is going to want boots off the ground from Q1 2011 - but maybe the shiny new CH-147s could stay if HM had a conversation with her respective PMs...
Photo Archive | Image Gallery | National Defence and the Canadian Forces
Photo Archive | Image Gallery | National Defence and the Canadian Forces
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: troon
Age: 61
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a matter of interest, If the govt were to extract their collective thumbs from their colective A*ses and realise that a servicemans life is worth more than the support of British industry then what would be (a) available immediately and (b) cost effective?
Mark D, those CH-147s are not "shiney new" but very "second hand". Your "shiney new" CH47s are not even on contract yet....
Yes, the UK has c500 helicopters. But, in typical Nu Labour spin, this includes all the gazelles (useless in Afg), Pingers and SAR birds (ditto). The SH/CHF force is a fraction of that total (c 100 RAF SH & 30 CHF). Naturally, of those helicopters a significant number are in depth maintenance, and others are required for UK training. The 500 might even include all of the SK6 in storage.
Wrong to blame Labour for the Merlin, very much a last Tory government mistake, where the military advice for an all CH47 buy was ignored to play politics.
And as for junior ministers calling the CGS a "****", well, it kind of sums up the whole control freak mentality of this government doesn't it?
Nothing will be done, save, perhaps, a "scorched earth" act of sending more cabs prior to the election (and therefore destroying the long term health of the fleets). No new ac will be bought; it would be a tacit admission that Labour (and senior officers) were wrong to take £1.5Bn out of SABR, it would also prove that UK forces have not "had everything they've asked for" and, most importantly, no new assets would be in place before the election. Brace yourselves for more rounds of spin/smoke/mirrors using meaningless stats.....
Yes, the UK has c500 helicopters. But, in typical Nu Labour spin, this includes all the gazelles (useless in Afg), Pingers and SAR birds (ditto). The SH/CHF force is a fraction of that total (c 100 RAF SH & 30 CHF). Naturally, of those helicopters a significant number are in depth maintenance, and others are required for UK training. The 500 might even include all of the SK6 in storage.
Wrong to blame Labour for the Merlin, very much a last Tory government mistake, where the military advice for an all CH47 buy was ignored to play politics.
And as for junior ministers calling the CGS a "****", well, it kind of sums up the whole control freak mentality of this government doesn't it?
Nothing will be done, save, perhaps, a "scorched earth" act of sending more cabs prior to the election (and therefore destroying the long term health of the fleets). No new ac will be bought; it would be a tacit admission that Labour (and senior officers) were wrong to take £1.5Bn out of SABR, it would also prove that UK forces have not "had everything they've asked for" and, most importantly, no new assets would be in place before the election. Brace yourselves for more rounds of spin/smoke/mirrors using meaningless stats.....
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: YES
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah the Merlin bashing starts again. Interesting it did such a sterling job in Iraq and Bosnia. But yet again the sulking about more chinooks raises its head There was more chinooks ordered remember the HC3!
Anyway where are you going to get your "New Chinooks from? I think Beoing helecopters are a bit busy at the moment with the CH47F programme so much so the Italians are getting to sort out their own. Even if we can get airframes we stand to create another fleet within the CH47 force.
The Puma/Sea King definitly need replacing and Chinook really can't be made a maritime Helecopter. Maybe the solution would be to order a version of the Merlin like the Italian Navy already have with all the folding bits for the CHF with the same engines and kit as the UK fleet and field it and flog the Seaking HC4's to death in the short term whilst they are being built?
RAF has Sea King Current pilots and instructors who could convert Puma Pilots/crews and there are loads of redundant HAS6 airframes that could be used for training in the short term.
As to a Puma replacement Aw159 or NH90?
Anyway where are you going to get your "New Chinooks from? I think Beoing helecopters are a bit busy at the moment with the CH47F programme so much so the Italians are getting to sort out their own. Even if we can get airframes we stand to create another fleet within the CH47 force.
The Puma/Sea King definitly need replacing and Chinook really can't be made a maritime Helecopter. Maybe the solution would be to order a version of the Merlin like the Italian Navy already have with all the folding bits for the CHF with the same engines and kit as the UK fleet and field it and flog the Seaking HC4's to death in the short term whilst they are being built?
RAF has Sea King Current pilots and instructors who could convert Puma Pilots/crews and there are loads of redundant HAS6 airframes that could be used for training in the short term.
As to a Puma replacement Aw159 or NH90?
Last edited by NURSE; 17th Jul 2009 at 08:17.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cornwall UK
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DazDaz - I think you're looking at overkill here - a Challenger MBT versus Mahommad with his AK47. In order for the MBT to operate it would need to be accompanied by the Titan armoured bridge layer, because your MBT is gonna be too heavy for the local bridges, the Trojan, a combat engineering vehicle, the CRARRV, the Challenger armoured repair and recovery vehicle because they do get bogged down, break down and have even suffered damage by IED's. That all adds up to a very expensive exercise and before you rush to say that " our lads " are worth the cost consider why the Tories are offering tax cuts in order to get back into " power " - because no one wants to dip their hands in their pockets to pay for it all.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let us just remember that DEC ALM, IPT, JHC and everyone involved with rotary wing procurement has spent the last 10-15 years 'scoping' and 'reviewing' and conceptualising what the UK's future Battlefield Helicopter force should look like and also what aircraft type.
The moment we start looking at other solutions than those that already have a logisitics, training and support system in place will mean even more of a delay and even more meetings, discussions, industry work shops etc etc.
The hardware is not the issue, and there are CH47s and Merlin out there, modification is not the issue, as the template is already in place. Logistics and spares should not be the issue as if the 'tap' is turned on now, by time this transition takes place the production lines would have spun up.
The key issue is the training (of aircrew and engineers), with what I see as the only 'quick win' solution being the initial procurement through the US Foreign Military Sales, with a graduated handover by Boeing to AW under licence (as per WAH 64) once 'steady state' is approached (ultimately a win all round for both defence and industry). Experienced UK aircrew (not ab-initios) and engineers roll through the training system in the states, and conduct a differences/CR package on return. In parallel, Benson commits resources to increasing its training pipeline in anticipation of the delivery of more Merlins. One could argue that the Merlins should delay their much advertised deployment in order to increase the training fleet for the (suggested mothballing) Puma force, allowing the Commando Sea Kings to do the best they can an in the interim to make the transition as seamless as possible (and if quick in a decision, at least the Sea Kings will have the initial advantage of winter temperatures in theatre, and the much advertised Lynx GTI will be able to assist).
When the Puma force is re-roled, then there should be the capacity to either roll CHF crews through the pipeline or knock CHF on the head and absorb it into the RAF Merlin/CH47 system - and as is known I personally do not want to go on the O Boat anymore so hope that the UK retains some rotary maritime expertise, but it may prove best practice just to absorb it. Yeovilton, Odiham and Benson are all so close, with a cutting edge simulator complex at Benson, means that retaining the current locations remains viable (it is just the big decision on what aircraft type (s) is CHF going to replace its tired Sea Kings?)
And that is the question for JHC - if you delay and prevaricate much longer you will add to the debacle, if you can make a timely decision and know what kind of a Battlefield Helicopter force will best deliver effect for the troops on the ground, then there is every possibility that this chronic situation can be turned around in as little as 24 months.
The moment we start looking at other solutions than those that already have a logisitics, training and support system in place will mean even more of a delay and even more meetings, discussions, industry work shops etc etc.
The hardware is not the issue, and there are CH47s and Merlin out there, modification is not the issue, as the template is already in place. Logistics and spares should not be the issue as if the 'tap' is turned on now, by time this transition takes place the production lines would have spun up.
The key issue is the training (of aircrew and engineers), with what I see as the only 'quick win' solution being the initial procurement through the US Foreign Military Sales, with a graduated handover by Boeing to AW under licence (as per WAH 64) once 'steady state' is approached (ultimately a win all round for both defence and industry). Experienced UK aircrew (not ab-initios) and engineers roll through the training system in the states, and conduct a differences/CR package on return. In parallel, Benson commits resources to increasing its training pipeline in anticipation of the delivery of more Merlins. One could argue that the Merlins should delay their much advertised deployment in order to increase the training fleet for the (suggested mothballing) Puma force, allowing the Commando Sea Kings to do the best they can an in the interim to make the transition as seamless as possible (and if quick in a decision, at least the Sea Kings will have the initial advantage of winter temperatures in theatre, and the much advertised Lynx GTI will be able to assist).
When the Puma force is re-roled, then there should be the capacity to either roll CHF crews through the pipeline or knock CHF on the head and absorb it into the RAF Merlin/CH47 system - and as is known I personally do not want to go on the O Boat anymore so hope that the UK retains some rotary maritime expertise, but it may prove best practice just to absorb it. Yeovilton, Odiham and Benson are all so close, with a cutting edge simulator complex at Benson, means that retaining the current locations remains viable (it is just the big decision on what aircraft type (s) is CHF going to replace its tired Sea Kings?)
And that is the question for JHC - if you delay and prevaricate much longer you will add to the debacle, if you can make a timely decision and know what kind of a Battlefield Helicopter force will best deliver effect for the troops on the ground, then there is every possibility that this chronic situation can be turned around in as little as 24 months.
Last edited by MaroonMan4; 17th Jul 2009 at 16:18.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: 1 Dunghill Mansions, Putney
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
UK to Spend £6 Billion on New Helicopters, or so the spin doctors claim.
£140 million just to re-engine 22 Lynx? No wonder you're short of lift.
I/C
£140 million just to re-engine 22 Lynx? No wonder you're short of lift.
I/C
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: London
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
we are now spending around £140M putting more powerful T800 engines into 22 Lynx Mk9 helicopters
Me thinks someone is being ripped off.
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: See that little island just above France? Yeah, there...
Age: 37
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jacko, are you Lewis Page or someone?
It would explain the constant anti-RN tone of everything you write.
Retarded is right...
It would explain the constant anti-RN tone of everything you write.
Retarded is right...
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: YES
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MaroonMan Agree with in the near term keeping on types currently in service By using Seaking HC4 in Afghanistan and replacing them with Merlins like the Italian Navy Amphibious assualt there by retaining the capicity to deploy of Ocean. But Using SK crews from the RAF & RN and converting puma crews to SK and using reserve HAS6 airframes as training aircraft. But in the longer term isn't there a need for a helicopter falling between Lynx & Merlin?
As to liscencing AW to build for UK forces more Chinooks which model would they build? would we be looking at introducing the F at this time? creating a fleet within a fleet? or would we be looking at a rolling programe of upgrading our chinooks to F standard?
As to liscencing AW to build for UK forces more Chinooks which model would they build? would we be looking at introducing the F at this time? creating a fleet within a fleet? or would we be looking at a rolling programe of upgrading our chinooks to F standard?
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: See that little island just above France? Yeah, there...
Age: 37
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aircraft between Lynx and Merlin? Easy, NH90, I believe already used by other nations who are very happy with it?
Last edited by Yeoman_dai; 17th Jul 2009 at 16:46. Reason: Incorrect...
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In that case then, if the Puma LEP is going ahead (as per IC's post 159 above) and the Puma force is going to rise like a Phoenix with an improved capability, then lets get the ball rolling with the Commando Sea King aircrew and engineers. As soon as the Merlin arrive in theatre, then thin out the (majority of the) Sea King and start the process as soon as possible and start pushing the Sea King air and groundcrew through any spare capacity in the UK/CH47 training pipeline, and if no spare capacity off to the states. Depending on the proposed JHC structures, either Commando Sea King crews could go through both Merlin (it will get a deck clearance one day!) and CH47 (survived this long without folding blades!) training, or the 'spare' Puma crews could remain at Benson and take up any spare capacity with the Merlin training system (depending on how much of a draw down of Puma experience during the LEP was required/permitted) and the Sea King crews could focus on CH47. In extremis, the entire conversion of experienced Sea King crews could be conducted in the states, with a bespoke UK differences and CR course back at Odiham before returning to Yeovilton, which should see less of a burden on the already strained resources at Odiham. Again we return to what kind of force structure does JHC want in the future?
Concurrently the hardware is procured and modified, and as an added benefit trained crews are already in place for the 8 HC3s when (eventually) they do come on line.
If a decision was made today, I personally believe that the ground forces would potentially start to see an increase in lift in 18-24 months, notably through more CH47s (re-modified HC3s and those procured through CHAPS/FMS). This is further increased when the Puma LEP aircraft roll off the line.
Puma first for re-rolling, or Sea Kings - it really does not matter as long as we see an increase in lift as quickly as possible to enable support to the ground forces. If the Puma LEP is confirmed, then naturally Sea King should be first off the block (and yes, it is a race with a very real operational requirement) If there is a political will, and the DECs/IPTs have clear airspace (unhindered by civil serpents) then there is a real opportunity to sort this shortage out.
As a by product of sorting the chronic shortage for today's war, a JHC that has CH47s, Merlins, Post LEP Pumas (and a smattering of BRH), with the security of AH will be a potent force for the future.
A quick read of the posts above - although NH/MRH 90 sounds lovely, just ask the Aussies or the Swedes what they think (especially with technical/development project risk, delivery times and spares supply) - as to Robenexport/Mil or the AW139, maybe a great aircraft (I have not flown it) - but regardless of any of these suggestions if we are going to be able to deliver a sustainable increase in lift within 18-24 months, whilst simultaneously ensuring a weather eye on future operations and capability requirements once (if!?) AFG finishes, then I genuinely believe that we have to look at expanding the systems that we already have in place, rather than designing new ones - hence why I accept Merlin and Puma (Post LEP) as part of the solution alongside CH47 as they already have a training system/logistics/TLS in place.
As to which Mk of CH47 - initially it should not matter (especially if the Commando Sea Kings re-role to CH47s and remain at Yeovilton, as beggars cannot be choosers and any CH47 will do - but this is where a review of future CH47 Mid Life Upgrade which is just around the corner will be the peg in the sand to ensure that all CH47s go to standard fit. This should not be a show stopper as look at the fleets within fleets we have now - all awaiting the standardisation of the MLU. When we look at the work done with the HC3s, that surely must be the worst case scenario/experience of modifying aircraft, and anything we manage to procure will be an easier process, with the corporate experience in place when that airframe goes through its MLU?
Concurrently the hardware is procured and modified, and as an added benefit trained crews are already in place for the 8 HC3s when (eventually) they do come on line.
If a decision was made today, I personally believe that the ground forces would potentially start to see an increase in lift in 18-24 months, notably through more CH47s (re-modified HC3s and those procured through CHAPS/FMS). This is further increased when the Puma LEP aircraft roll off the line.
Puma first for re-rolling, or Sea Kings - it really does not matter as long as we see an increase in lift as quickly as possible to enable support to the ground forces. If the Puma LEP is confirmed, then naturally Sea King should be first off the block (and yes, it is a race with a very real operational requirement) If there is a political will, and the DECs/IPTs have clear airspace (unhindered by civil serpents) then there is a real opportunity to sort this shortage out.
As a by product of sorting the chronic shortage for today's war, a JHC that has CH47s, Merlins, Post LEP Pumas (and a smattering of BRH), with the security of AH will be a potent force for the future.
A quick read of the posts above - although NH/MRH 90 sounds lovely, just ask the Aussies or the Swedes what they think (especially with technical/development project risk, delivery times and spares supply) - as to Robenexport/Mil or the AW139, maybe a great aircraft (I have not flown it) - but regardless of any of these suggestions if we are going to be able to deliver a sustainable increase in lift within 18-24 months, whilst simultaneously ensuring a weather eye on future operations and capability requirements once (if!?) AFG finishes, then I genuinely believe that we have to look at expanding the systems that we already have in place, rather than designing new ones - hence why I accept Merlin and Puma (Post LEP) as part of the solution alongside CH47 as they already have a training system/logistics/TLS in place.
As to which Mk of CH47 - initially it should not matter (especially if the Commando Sea Kings re-role to CH47s and remain at Yeovilton, as beggars cannot be choosers and any CH47 will do - but this is where a review of future CH47 Mid Life Upgrade which is just around the corner will be the peg in the sand to ensure that all CH47s go to standard fit. This should not be a show stopper as look at the fleets within fleets we have now - all awaiting the standardisation of the MLU. When we look at the work done with the HC3s, that surely must be the worst case scenario/experience of modifying aircraft, and anything we manage to procure will be an easier process, with the corporate experience in place when that airframe goes through its MLU?
Last edited by MaroonMan4; 18th Jul 2009 at 06:38.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: YES
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The thing is Maroon Man the CH47C is no longer in production and if we want more airframes we will either have to buy second hand with all that entails or bite the bullet and start to upgrade to CH47F which in my humble opinion is what we should have done with the HC3 airframes as the first tranche of Chinook HC4.
With your Idea of the CHF going to Chinook are we going to have less airframes per sqn like the Harrier force? Personally the the Puma MLU should be binned along with the Puma and the Future Helecopter Programme be brought forward with in the short term SK HC4 being replaced with Merlin's like the Italian navy's Amphibious assualt. And the Puma "Replaced" with the SK HC4's. And in the longer term a new airframe.
If the SK 4 is being chopped how will that impact on the rest of the SK fleet? And with the other SK fleets in service the pool of SK trained ground & Aircrew is already in existance same goes for Merlin.
With your Idea of the CHF going to Chinook are we going to have less airframes per sqn like the Harrier force? Personally the the Puma MLU should be binned along with the Puma and the Future Helecopter Programme be brought forward with in the short term SK HC4 being replaced with Merlin's like the Italian navy's Amphibious assualt. And the Puma "Replaced" with the SK HC4's. And in the longer term a new airframe.
If the SK 4 is being chopped how will that impact on the rest of the SK fleet? And with the other SK fleets in service the pool of SK trained ground & Aircrew is already in existance same goes for Merlin.