‘Top Gun’ takes on Taliban upside down

[Desert Diner]

Exactly how many CAS missions have you flown in? I assume you are an expert in the weapons effects of a gun verses HEPD CRV 7 verses sniper positions.

None and I am no expert, but I am falling back on things I like to call "common sense" and "logic".

But go ahead and assume anything you want, just explain to us why Lieutenant Rawlins had to "scare" the Taliban instead of utilizing some weaponry.

Thanks in advance.

[NickGooseBrady]

The "scare" tactic is otherwise known as a "show of force", a well utilised practice. The whole article is just a spot of PR. Correct me if I am wrong but the inverted bit is quite normal when bunting over the top of ridges.

Cheers

NGB

[Wholigan]

I am falling back on things I like to call "common sense" and "logic".

Stap me mate - you're totally in the wrong forum for those things! Try Jet Blast!

[Wholigan]

Correct me if I am wrong but the inverted bit is quite normal when bunting over the top of ridges.

Sorry old mate, but if you bunt whilst inverted you go upwards, not down over the ridge as I imagine you meant! And anyway, ridge-rolling is - in my opinion - a useless and quite dangerous thing to do. There was a thread about it some years ago.

[TEEEJ]

Desert Diner,

I suggest that you read Joint Force Harrer 'The true story of a Royal Navy Fighter Squadron at war' by Commander Adrian Orchard, RN with James Barrington.

The Taliban certainly know how effective CRV-7s are!

Joint-Force Harrier - Legion, the Royal British Legion magazine

Shows of force are highly effective.

Show of force during 2007 in Iraq.

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Military Operations | RAF jets save life of top Iraqi Police Commander

TJ

[ShyTorque]

S'funny - I thought our chaps were only fighting the Taliban... not those who are supposedly on our own side

[TEEEJ]

Desert Diner,

See the mission marks on the Harrier at the following. Note the CRV-7s employed.

RAF Harrier Mission Markings from OP HERRICK

TJ

[Desert Diner]

TEEEJ,

Thank you for those links. Nice pictures by the way.

Nice plane the Harrier, I've seen a few of them during Gulf 1 (from the outside I had better add before zerva accuses me of anything else).

As for the markings, of the CRV-7s that are shown, I wonder how many times they would have been selected if the cannon option was also available?

Some here have the opinion here that a gun/cannon is not needed because the Harrier has rockets.

On the contrary, I am proposing the opinion that rockets have to be used because the Harrier does not posess a gun/cannon anymore.

And as been said before, "show of force" aerobatics are useless and dangerous against an enemy that is shooting at you, and suggest the lack of a suitable alternative.

And zerva, I am still awaiting your "expert" opinion to my question. Anytime after shool is over will be fine.

[airborne_artist]

In the wide open, flat spaces of the Iraqi desert there is often a use for a 30mm cannon/rockets in close air support, especially against light armour and soft-skinned vehicles, but Helmand is a very different battle ground. Terry is often dug in inside compounds less than 200m from our chaps, and a jet moving at 400kts firing is not going to be able to get a decent firing solution and much lead down without a blue on blue, or firing into civilian areas. They really don't like making more than one pass at that kind of height, too.

Paveway can be targetted and released from 15,000', so the enemy literally does not even know it's coming, and the relatively low HE content, compared to an iron bomb, means that the destruction is quite short-range, so it can be used even when our forces are in the next field.

[TEEEJ]

Desert Diner,

As suggested pick up a copy of Joint Force Harrier. It will explain all.

TJ

[Engines]

SS, I do know a little bit about the Aden 25 - I was PM for the project for a while.

The 25 was a development of the standard Aden 30, carried out by RO at Enfield, then moved to Nottingham when Enfield closed. Sadly, the guys who knew anything about high speed cannon didn't move with the project and RO produced a gun that suffered repeated jams and stoppages due to a number of problems, including cradle twisting.

The project was then taken off RO and given to a small firm in the Ascot area, who did a really very good job on the gun, redesigning and retesting it. Culminated in a 250,000 round shoot in around 4 days with very few stoppages.

Sadly, the gun pod was left with BAES at Farnborough, along with the gun feeds. The early trials showed not only feed induced stoppages, but also spent links hitting the tailplane. (never a problem for FRS1 or FA2, with tin tails, but GR5/7 tailplane is composite). The whole programme was canned a couple of years after I left it, when the RAF pulled the plug, citing the 'irrelevance of a non-precision weapon' - Typhoon gun was canned at the same time.

I've commented here because that little firm in Ascot did an excellent job in a short time for quite a low cost, and never really got the credit they deserved. In my view the 25mm would have been a good gun, but would have needed a new feed system and a better spent link collector - both eminently doable.

My own view is that the RAF pulled guns off their aircraft with very little thought for operational scenarios where a gun can work. The 25mm round is excellently suited to CAS, and with modern gunsights and aiming systems, guns can be very precise in both air to air and air to ground. More precise than a CRV7, that's for sure, but less range - there's always a tradeoff...

Best regards as ever, Engines

[Desert Diner]

Engines,

Excellent post. Thank you for sharing.

Regards

[newt]

Wholigan I think you will find that many years ago ridge-rolling was the accepted method of crossing a ridge line and was taught on the Jag OCU.

I wonder why it is now considered to be dangerous? Could it be you are getting a bit too old for such excitment? Or are you becoming Captain Sensible having been to CFS!!!!!

[BEagle]

Hmmm...ridge rolling.

In 1974, I was at Leeming doing a 'Fast Jet Lead In' course and my QFI was, well, a bit of a loony. He once showed off his 'ridge rolling' technique to me in the JP5 and it was one of the few times that I was genuinely scared fartless.... We rolled and pulled over the Buttertubs and various hilly bits of Yorkshire at extremely low level.

Sadly, he later killed himself in a Jaguar.

[LateArmLive]

I vote Desert Diner should come out to KAF and brief us all on how to provide CAS effectively. We obviously haven't got it right yet in the 5 years we've been out here.

[Desert Diner]

I vote Desert Diner should come out to KAF and brief us all on how to provide CAS effectively. We obviously haven't got it right yet in the 5 years we've been out here.

LAL, stop being a tw@t.

To quote that other "great air combat authority" zerva:

Exactly how many CAS missions have you flown in?

I can't believe any real combat pilot would prefer going into a CAS mission without a gun. They will because they are professionals and follow orders, but professionalism also means common sense

If you think a gun is not required, then please provide a logical explaination.

[airborne_artist]

DD - of course guns and rockets are carried by Apache. OK, it's not fast, but in some ways CAS from Apache has advantages over the same from faster platforms. It's been very popular in Helmand.

[Desert Diner]

AA,

I am not saying that CRV-7 or any rockets or bombs are bad, nor anything against their use on CAS missions. Just that many military pilots I've talked over the years have spoken fondley of their "gatlin guns" These were mostly A-10.

It irks me to have idiots dismiss an otherwise interesting discussion with sarcasm. And what is their point?

A canon is not necessary because it cannot be fit onto the airframe?

Sounds like a pencil pusher to me.

I seriously doubt any real pilot would prefer not having a gun for CAS if it was available.

Simple as that/

[airborne_artist]

Of course, what the pilots want, and what the grunts want may be two different things. What the pilots wants isn't really important, and in fact, the grunts who need the CAS don't really care what is delivered, or by what platform, so long as it's immediately available, accurate and effective. We have to bear in mind that the A10 was procured to bust tanks in Europe, not well dug-in Taleban in the mountains. For that matter, so was Apache.

[gungho]

gungho

Bring back the FGA9, Omani ones had 4XAden 30MM, 24XSura, 2X1000lbs, very effective as I remember against all sorts of things, cheap to run too!