How much do we value our Veterans?
Thread Starter
How much do we value our Veterans?
Ladies & Gents,
I would welcome any feedback on how veterans can continue to contribute to military effectiveness through experience gained since they left.
Examples of how such knowledge could be put to use:
2006 - Veterans now working in the civil sector with experience of an IT led HR system akin to JPA. Could you have offered advice on how to implement/troubleshoot the system based on your civilian sector, thus saving the military much stress and resentment?
2009 - Do you work with legislation (JAR Ops etc/EASA auditing etc) which is likely to impact the military in the future? Do you have advice or experience you feel the military could use?
Seen leaning before?
The above questions form the basis for an academic study. If you have served in the military (regular or reserve), are now in the civilian sector (primarily, but not exclusively civil aviation) and feel you can, and would like to continue to contribute to the future effectiveness of the military, please PM me and I will forward you a questionnaire.
Conversely, if you are completely opposed to assisting in such a manner, I'd also like to hear from you.
Appeal over. Thank you for your time.
I would welcome any feedback on how veterans can continue to contribute to military effectiveness through experience gained since they left.
Examples of how such knowledge could be put to use:
2006 - Veterans now working in the civil sector with experience of an IT led HR system akin to JPA. Could you have offered advice on how to implement/troubleshoot the system based on your civilian sector, thus saving the military much stress and resentment?
2009 - Do you work with legislation (JAR Ops etc/EASA auditing etc) which is likely to impact the military in the future? Do you have advice or experience you feel the military could use?
Seen leaning before?
The above questions form the basis for an academic study. If you have served in the military (regular or reserve), are now in the civilian sector (primarily, but not exclusively civil aviation) and feel you can, and would like to continue to contribute to the future effectiveness of the military, please PM me and I will forward you a questionnaire.
Conversely, if you are completely opposed to assisting in such a manner, I'd also like to hear from you.
Appeal over. Thank you for your time.
"They" didn't ask us and didn't listen to us when we piped in with our two penny worth to help or improve things whilst we were in. Why in heavens name do you think "They" will have the slightest interest in what we think now we're out?
Please advise what you have been drinking/smoking and where I can get some!!
Doc C
Please advise what you have been drinking/smoking and where I can get some!!
Doc C
Thread Starter
I don't believe you would give in just like that Doc!The work I'm doing will probably make a small ripple in a big pond, but a ripple nontheless. Better to make a small ripple than none at all.
If you feel strongly enough in either sense, I'd still like to hear from you.
If you feel strongly enough in either sense, I'd still like to hear from you.
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Minigun,
I work at a museum and am very happy to tell you our veterans are regarded highly - and the chap next to me is a young Royal marine, who mentioned that his instructor has an almost psychic knowledge of weapons, which sounds handy in combat !
I was also approached by a nice lady last week who wants to write & record my fathers' experiences as a FAA leading air mechanic on Seafires & Hellcats in WWII; however I'm pretty certain tactics are another thing, evolved from learning, so using old moves might be a bad idea.
Listening to experienced people is not, they can teach a lot about day to day living as well as fighting and you might be amazed what I've heard from male & female guests of all races at the museum; I am !
I work at a museum and am very happy to tell you our veterans are regarded highly - and the chap next to me is a young Royal marine, who mentioned that his instructor has an almost psychic knowledge of weapons, which sounds handy in combat !
I was also approached by a nice lady last week who wants to write & record my fathers' experiences as a FAA leading air mechanic on Seafires & Hellcats in WWII; however I'm pretty certain tactics are another thing, evolved from learning, so using old moves might be a bad idea.
Listening to experienced people is not, they can teach a lot about day to day living as well as fighting and you might be amazed what I've heard from male & female guests of all races at the museum; I am !
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Funnily enough, one of the largest Payroll and Human Resources companies in the US is ADP. It deals entirely with the Payroll intricacies and direct deposit of funds based upon the transmitted data the customer sends them. All taxes and benefits are managed within the system as are vacation and sick time. ADP provides the payroll software and provides an add-on system purely for the Human Resources functions right down to providing the intricate Employment Reports required by the government.
The system has been practically flawless over the 15 years my company has been using it and even manages to deal with deviated wages, (wages legally paid that would be illegal per minimum wage legislation were it not for mitigating factors). It has been rare that, as a System Administrator, I have had to call for technical support. It is rare that the users themselves have to "bother" me with questions about the software because it is relatively easy to use and took the minimum of training.
While it does not readily allow for individuals to manage their own "accounts" as I understand JPA does I don't believe that the core of ADP's system would require too great a modification to allow the functionality you currently "enjoy" since it is my understanding that we could allow personnel to review their own "account" should we chose to.
The irony: The system is programmed in the UK by Brits...
The system has been practically flawless over the 15 years my company has been using it and even manages to deal with deviated wages, (wages legally paid that would be illegal per minimum wage legislation were it not for mitigating factors). It has been rare that, as a System Administrator, I have had to call for technical support. It is rare that the users themselves have to "bother" me with questions about the software because it is relatively easy to use and took the minimum of training.
While it does not readily allow for individuals to manage their own "accounts" as I understand JPA does I don't believe that the core of ADP's system would require too great a modification to allow the functionality you currently "enjoy" since it is my understanding that we could allow personnel to review their own "account" should we chose to.
The irony: The system is programmed in the UK by Brits...
Thread Starter
Guys,
a huge thank you for all the helpful posts, and all the PM's I have recieved. When I started this, I must admit it didn't sound particularly exciting, despite the potential benefits for the military, aviation especially.
However, you have brought my research to life. If you wish to contribute further, please PM me and I will email you a questionnaire (this can be anonymous if required).
I do think that an online forum for service leavers to pass knowledge gained post-exit onto military departments has a lot to offer, especially the veterans.
I am equally keen to hear the views of those opposed to such a scheme.
Again, Many Thanks.
MGD
MODs - Although this thread may not seem directly related to military aviation, I can pm you with details of applicability if required. Please do not delete.
a huge thank you for all the helpful posts, and all the PM's I have recieved. When I started this, I must admit it didn't sound particularly exciting, despite the potential benefits for the military, aviation especially.
However, you have brought my research to life. If you wish to contribute further, please PM me and I will email you a questionnaire (this can be anonymous if required).
I do think that an online forum for service leavers to pass knowledge gained post-exit onto military departments has a lot to offer, especially the veterans.
I am equally keen to hear the views of those opposed to such a scheme.
Again, Many Thanks.
MGD
MODs - Although this thread may not seem directly related to military aviation, I can pm you with details of applicability if required. Please do not delete.
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Well we just fired ADP for being crap.
Moral: not all things are the same to all men.
The opportunity to give back as a veteran is welcomed by me, but all too often becomes a "It wasn't like that in my day" rant after being told "Sorry, granddad, you're out of date".
Some things never change though, such as the Ethos of the Service, and perhaps that is where the veterans can offer the most. The minutiae details belong in the past for me, and indeed were only relevant to my service career. Most of the units I served on are no longer, for instance.
Moral: not all things are the same to all men.
The opportunity to give back as a veteran is welcomed by me, but all too often becomes a "It wasn't like that in my day" rant after being told "Sorry, granddad, you're out of date".
Some things never change though, such as the Ethos of the Service, and perhaps that is where the veterans can offer the most. The minutiae details belong in the past for me, and indeed were only relevant to my service career. Most of the units I served on are no longer, for instance.
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Well we just fired ADP for being crap.
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No, it wasn't the software, as we used their managed service. The software as such was their issue, not ours. The issue was the human factor. We would request changes to an individual's payroll and it would not get actioned. We'd call their helpline and be passed round 5 departments to get nowhere. We're only a small company in the US (UK head office much larger), and they weren't interested enough in us to do what they needed to in order to retain our business.
Sounds a lot like JPA to me!
Sounds a lot like JPA to me!
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Ahhh... We manage ourselves and transmit the data to them. Done that way we have had practically no problems with them because we only really talk to their computers...
Their systems have always functioned pretty much as advertized and on the rare occasions they have been an issue the programmers, (contracted programmers to be accurate), have always been prompt and helpful.
My suggestion of ADP was for their systems which do work rather than the unfortunate situation you found yourself in with their people...
Their systems have always functioned pretty much as advertized and on the rare occasions they have been an issue the programmers, (contracted programmers to be accurate), have always been prompt and helpful.
My suggestion of ADP was for their systems which do work rather than the unfortunate situation you found yourself in with their people...
BOFs
Minigun
Roadster 280 made a correct allusion in his post.
Over time, there have been many sneering comments along the lines of "grandad" "does anyone smell wee?"; implying that nothing that was learned by posters (sometimes painfully) over many years can teach current aviators anything.
What makes you think that those with some experience, in and out of the service, will contribute now, having been treated shabbily in the past?
The Ancient Mariner
Roadster 280 made a correct allusion in his post.
Over time, there have been many sneering comments along the lines of "grandad" "does anyone smell wee?"; implying that nothing that was learned by posters (sometimes painfully) over many years can teach current aviators anything.
What makes you think that those with some experience, in and out of the service, will contribute now, having been treated shabbily in the past?
The Ancient Mariner
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Come off it Rossian, when we were the young ones, who could tell us anything? Multi tasking for the old (over 35 with more than 3 rows of medals) meant coughing peeing and cra**ing at the same time as far as we were concerned. But it was all pi** taking, and generally taken in good part.
Seriously, I'm not convinced that we geriatrics of today could teach the young ones anything, it has all moved so far from that we knew, except for the espirit de corps and the pi** taking - thank the gods!
Its sad, but the minute you hand in your 1250 you have just become 'past it', or are on the way to being one of the boring old
honorarys who prop up the bar and bore everyone rigid with wheneyes. C'est la vie Im afraid. 
Seriously, I'm not convinced that we geriatrics of today could teach the young ones anything, it has all moved so far from that we knew, except for the espirit de corps and the pi** taking - thank the gods!
Its sad, but the minute you hand in your 1250 you have just become 'past it', or are on the way to being one of the boring old
honorarys who prop up the bar and bore everyone rigid with wheneyes. C'est la vie Im afraid. Join Date: Feb 2007
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I have some advice to those left in and are thinking about leaving.........
Before having the paperwork sent up the top of the mast, make sure you have had a nice conversation with the WO PSF (if such a thing still exists) as the firm are supposed to try and talk you into staying. I had mine less than a week before I handed in 1250. Nice to know PSF can still let me out with the same standard of care they did when I joined.......
useless shiny arse's
Before having the paperwork sent up the top of the mast, make sure you have had a nice conversation with the WO PSF (if such a thing still exists) as the firm are supposed to try and talk you into staying. I had mine less than a week before I handed in 1250. Nice to know PSF can still let me out with the same standard of care they did when I joined.......
useless shiny arse's
Thread Starter
In addition to the overwhelming support I have recieved via PM, there is still a degree of scepticism towards such a scheme, not to mention rancour at the military view of veterans.
I am equally interested in those views, so keep the PM's coming.
MGD
I am equally interested in those views, so keep the PM's coming.
MGD
Biggles said:
"Seriously, I'm not convinced that we geriatrics of today could teach the young ones anything..."
My PoV is that - if we dont say anything what could anyone learn?
It may only matter that one person listens to older people wittering on.
"Seriously, I'm not convinced that we geriatrics of today could teach the young ones anything..."
My PoV is that - if we dont say anything what could anyone learn?
It may only matter that one person listens to older people wittering on.
I was going to leave it but.....
Biggles 225
I started my flying career sitting behind a variety of mittel europeans FS and Master pilots who had been through the war and had learned hard lessons along the way. On my first squadron (apart from a boss who was absolutely barking) I learned a huge amount more from crew room chat from guys who were considerably older than me (usually around the uckers board) about life, flying and the job we were doing. The "lessons" if you like often emerged from stories, parables,almost, you might say; but I still remember them. And no we "younger chaps" did NOT sneer at these older guys. Sometimes they had left over problems from the war and with booze. We learned to act as back stops for these guys to keep them (and ourselves) out of the dwang on occasions. Respect was there, but unvoiced, in contrast to the common "Respect" that you hear trotted out tritely today.
The Ancient Mariner
Minigun. I apologise if I seem to have led your thread away from the direction I think you meant it to take. I'll bow out of this now and maybe it'll get back on track.
I started my flying career sitting behind a variety of mittel europeans FS and Master pilots who had been through the war and had learned hard lessons along the way. On my first squadron (apart from a boss who was absolutely barking) I learned a huge amount more from crew room chat from guys who were considerably older than me (usually around the uckers board) about life, flying and the job we were doing. The "lessons" if you like often emerged from stories, parables,almost, you might say; but I still remember them. And no we "younger chaps" did NOT sneer at these older guys. Sometimes they had left over problems from the war and with booze. We learned to act as back stops for these guys to keep them (and ourselves) out of the dwang on occasions. Respect was there, but unvoiced, in contrast to the common "Respect" that you hear trotted out tritely today.
The Ancient Mariner
Minigun. I apologise if I seem to have led your thread away from the direction I think you meant it to take. I'll bow out of this now and maybe it'll get back on track.
Thread Starter
Minigun. I apologise if I seem to have led your thread away from the direction I think you meant it to take. I'll bow out of this now and maybe it'll get back on track.
MGD
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Just to put it straight Rossian I didn't for a moment suggest anybody was sneered at, just an exchange of some good natured banter which is a completely different thing. Anybody sneering would have been taken round the back of the hangar and had the error of his ways explained.
Thread Starter
Everyone has something to add, whether it be the voice of experience (veterans) or a fresh pair of eyes (youth).
However, getting back to the thread, this is about whether veterans and service leavers can add to the rich mix from the standpoint of their experiences post-exit date.
The other aspect is whether they want to, or if they are completely opposed to helping the military.
Whichever view you subscribe to, I would like to hear from you so I can send you a questionnaire.
For what it's worth, I think that veterans have an enormous amount to contribute, and we ignore them at our peril.
PM me for a questionnaire.
MGD
- Cornish Stormrider/Airborne Aircrew, I have questionnaires waiting for you!
However, getting back to the thread, this is about whether veterans and service leavers can add to the rich mix from the standpoint of their experiences post-exit date.
The other aspect is whether they want to, or if they are completely opposed to helping the military.
Whichever view you subscribe to, I would like to hear from you so I can send you a questionnaire.
For what it's worth, I think that veterans have an enormous amount to contribute, and we ignore them at our peril.
PM me for a questionnaire.
MGD
- Cornish Stormrider/Airborne Aircrew, I have questionnaires waiting for you!
Last edited by minigundiplomat; 22nd May 2009 at 11:26.