Is it time to rethink our role as a "military power"?
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Is it time to rethink our role as a "military power"?
Given that the UK Government is reportedly very poor at resourcing the armed forces in a manner suitable for the demands made on them; and the MoD is practically useless at procurement and controlling budgets, is it time to rethink our role in the world? Do we really need to be the Community Support Officer to the World's Policeman? Would we be better off assuming the attitude of, say, the Swedes, or do we still have a part to play in "running the world"?
We still have big ideas.
Unfortunately, our politicos and very senior officers have neither the will or money to properly resource them.
Simple fact, pay out billions to keep the great unwashed in beer and fags or resource the forces. The votes get it unfortunately, especially to Broon's bunch.
Unfortunately, the other choices will be just as bad for the forces only with different recipients of the largesse.
Doc C
Unfortunately, our politicos and very senior officers have neither the will or money to properly resource them.
Simple fact, pay out billions to keep the great unwashed in beer and fags or resource the forces. The votes get it unfortunately, especially to Broon's bunch.
Unfortunately, the other choices will be just as bad for the forces only with different recipients of the largesse.
Doc C
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Do we have a choice?
It is bizarre that in the same office block, MOD's managers deal with PR crises resulting from inadequate boots & body armour, whilst others worry about the best way to use the last few £Bn in the pot to apply another sticking plaster to the UK's obviously in-decline 'heavy' defence industries. What we are seeing is really MOD meeting economic reality - a 'procurement crunch'
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Oh, certainly.
Ministers want to have their cake and damn well eat it as well.
My personal view is that the malaise is spread far deeper than just the MoD and out world status. Big business alters their management structures as much as possible, in order to keep up with the modern outlook and practises - so, why are we using a system of government that is centuries old?
Our governmental system is old and outdated, the NHS is bloated and heavy with middle management waste, the social services system is a mess, and needs a complete overhaul and the injection of a bit of common sense - £40 a week to someone living at home with his parents is all very well, (a sponge of a friend of mine i'm using) but if he works, and earns say £30, they give him the extra £10 - so there is no incentive for him to work at all
. The legal services are a hodge podge, as is the police force.
The single biggest problem is that every time a new law or department is created, the govt refuses to chop off the dead wood, leaving us with useless, pointless and overly controlling laws, and a civil service th size of sheffield.
The country, as a whole, and every aspect of government - Education, Health, Public Services, Laws, and Defense all need turning upseide down a shaking, and need completely changing to suit the modern world. Maybe then we wouldn't waste so much damn money, and could afford to spend 3%of our GDP on defence, 0.5% more than now, which means we COULD have our cake and eat it.
I'm not holding out hope for a Prime Minister with the guts to do that, though....
Ministers want to have their cake and damn well eat it as well.
My personal view is that the malaise is spread far deeper than just the MoD and out world status. Big business alters their management structures as much as possible, in order to keep up with the modern outlook and practises - so, why are we using a system of government that is centuries old?
Our governmental system is old and outdated, the NHS is bloated and heavy with middle management waste, the social services system is a mess, and needs a complete overhaul and the injection of a bit of common sense - £40 a week to someone living at home with his parents is all very well, (a sponge of a friend of mine i'm using) but if he works, and earns say £30, they give him the extra £10 - so there is no incentive for him to work at all
. The legal services are a hodge podge, as is the police force.The single biggest problem is that every time a new law or department is created, the govt refuses to chop off the dead wood, leaving us with useless, pointless and overly controlling laws, and a civil service th size of sheffield.
The country, as a whole, and every aspect of government - Education, Health, Public Services, Laws, and Defense all need turning upseide down a shaking, and need completely changing to suit the modern world. Maybe then we wouldn't waste so much damn money, and could afford to spend 3%of our GDP on defence, 0.5% more than now, which means we COULD have our cake and eat it.
I'm not holding out hope for a Prime Minister with the guts to do that, though....
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Yeoman,
I was thinking of writing to the "leaders" of all three main parties suggesting the sort of root and branch review - and cutting the dead wood, keeping with the arborial analogy - that you put very well above. The country needs an overhaul, ranging from suggestions above to an elected upper house.
I was thinking of writing to the "leaders" of all three main parties suggesting the sort of root and branch review - and cutting the dead wood, keeping with the arborial analogy - that you put very well above. The country needs an overhaul, ranging from suggestions above to an elected upper house.
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Is it time to rethink our role as a "military power"?
"A decision the next Prime Minister must make"
It's quite long, but worth reading if time permits.
He's a former head of the Defence Export Services at the MoD and appears to favour the first of the two options.
The gist of what he argues is that Britain must make a stark choice:
Either accept that defence spending must be increased by £15 billion a year or accept that we will become what he calls a second division military power.
.
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The thing is, Flying Lawyer, are the resources available for the first option? This government seems willing to squander billions on IT systems that nobody wants/needs (NHS) and other ridiculous schemes. This government also fails to listen, IMHO.
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Bus429
I was simply pointing to a paper dealing with the specific, and IMHO very good, issues of principle you raised for discussion both in your thread title and in your post.
I didn't say whether I agreed or disagreed with the author's views on the topic.
(For various reasons I'd prefer not to explain, I can no longer express any political opinions, whether party politics or generally.)
FL
I was simply pointing to a paper dealing with the specific, and IMHO very good, issues of principle you raised for discussion both in your thread title and in your post.
I didn't say whether I agreed or disagreed with the author's views on the topic.
(For various reasons I'd prefer not to explain, I can no longer express any political opinions, whether party politics or generally.)
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UNSC?
Deliverance,
Not that I'm saying we should copy Russia, China or France's foriegn policies, but just what obligations do you mean, other than self-imposed ones by our government?
'If they want to go down that road it is quite simple, resign our seat as a permanent member of the security council and the obligations that go with it.'
S.O.
Not that I'm saying we should copy Russia, China or France's foriegn policies, but just what obligations do you mean, other than self-imposed ones by our government?
'If they want to go down that road it is quite simple, resign our seat as a permanent member of the security council and the obligations that go with it.'
S.O.
We are no longer a World Power. Our contribution to the latest adventures is, to quote a mate out their, 'pitiful'. We have neither the hardware, people or political will to continue chasing the Americans around the globe and demanding that other Nations follow our lead. On top of that, it will be a cold day in hell before another politician commits UK forces to an overseas US led 'War'.
No, we need to realse that we are just a tiny Island Nation in the overall scheme of things and tailor our forces as such. The British Public want to see our forces protecting the homeland.
However, when has it ever been about what is right. It is about jobs and keeping the Defence Industry alive and kicking. Therefore, what the military needs is irrelevant.
A complete and utter bloody shambles.
No, we need to realse that we are just a tiny Island Nation in the overall scheme of things and tailor our forces as such. The British Public want to see our forces protecting the homeland.
However, when has it ever been about what is right. It is about jobs and keeping the Defence Industry alive and kicking. Therefore, what the military needs is irrelevant.
A complete and utter bloody shambles.
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"On top of that, it will be a cold day in hell before another politician commits UK forces to an overseas US led 'War'"
You think, do you? Don't bet on it, not by a country mile. No politician is ever ever going to risk the polical fallout of pulling out of a role as a world 'power'.
I say, we get rid of the Army and Airforce, and just pump loads of money into the RN, get them decent air power, increase the size of the Marines....
(that was very very tongue in cheek for those that missed it 
)
You think, do you? Don't bet on it, not by a country mile. No politician is ever ever going to risk the polical fallout of pulling out of a role as a world 'power'.
I say, we get rid of the Army and Airforce, and just pump loads of money into the RN, get them decent air power, increase the size of the Marines....
(that was very very tongue in cheek for those that missed it )
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Increase the size of the Marines??
Is 6ft 1 not big enough then?
Still, Afg beats Cople Down as far as training goes eh?
It's a shame that it's knackering blokes in the process though.......
Is 6ft 1 not big enough then?
Still, Afg beats Cople Down as far as training goes eh?
It's a shame that it's knackering blokes in the process though.......
NO we do not
We do not need to re-think our role. This is why:British overseas territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia We still have a significant responsibility, particularly when you consider the un tapped wealth of mineral and food resource in several of those areas, some of which are also claimed by other nations. Do not get blinkered by Afghanistan!
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Top Table and all that ...
During my 16+ years of aviating in the Royal Air Force I could see how various Britgovs were tacitly acknowledigng that the UK was no longer "world power capable", although Prime Ministers were very capable of suddenly getting a rush of Imperial blood to the head. It's nothing new, and I did cringe when the late Robin Cook talked about "a seat at the top table", as if the UK was an indigent relative with ever-fainter hopes of being above the salt. But no politician is going to go that route, for fear of being torn to shreds in the Press and the polls by loud-mouthed "Patriots".
Not even Mr. Brown and his "money spent on defence is money wasted" chums from the accountancy department down the street will say it out loud, so they have to resort to subterfuge (as Mrs. T apparently did about MPs' expenses, to avoid unpopular pay increases). With the current hullabaloo about those, and Mr. Martin's clumsy speech-making, the obfuscations in governments' attitudes to administration are becoming clear(ish?) .
But a root & branch reform of what is called "The System" is surely a "not on your Nellie" - far, far too many careers (uniformed or not) would come noisily unglued.
The American ambassador to the Court of St. James was sooooo right when he said, all those years ago, that Britain had lost its one-time role in the world and failed to find another.
There were other possible roads to follow, but "tradition", or even plain inertia, and the ambitions of those looking to work the system and so, by "not upsetting the chaps", make a rewarding career for themselves, prevented the country as a whole from taking them.
(Rant NOT over - and it started many a decade ago )
Not even Mr. Brown and his "money spent on defence is money wasted" chums from the accountancy department down the street will say it out loud, so they have to resort to subterfuge (as Mrs. T apparently did about MPs' expenses, to avoid unpopular pay increases). With the current hullabaloo about those, and Mr. Martin's clumsy speech-making, the obfuscations in governments' attitudes to administration are becoming clear(ish?) .
But a root & branch reform of what is called "The System" is surely a "not on your Nellie" - far, far too many careers (uniformed or not) would come noisily unglued.
The American ambassador to the Court of St. James was sooooo right when he said, all those years ago, that Britain had lost its one-time role in the world and failed to find another.
There were other possible roads to follow, but "tradition", or even plain inertia, and the ambitions of those looking to work the system and so, by "not upsetting the chaps", make a rewarding career for themselves, prevented the country as a whole from taking them.
(Rant NOT over - and it started many a decade ago )
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Widger makes a good point - but holding onto a keeping a presence in those areas is not the same as acting as a global policeman, which we COULD do with the investment - but cannot because we don't have the dosh.
The whole damn country needs an overhaul, and once overhauled we could do a better job of holding onto those important areas.
GPMG - I won't be happy till all Marines are at least 6'5 giants...
The whole damn country needs an overhaul, and once overhauled we could do a better job of holding onto those important areas.
GPMG - I won't be happy till all Marines are at least 6'5 giants...
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There's no more money
I read the NDA article, and there are several similar ones. I doubt there is any prospect of significant real terms increases in the size of the defence budget - how many votes would an increase win? - and therefore, to be of any use, analyses of the MOD's dilemma must move beyond simply demanding more money. There must be a suggestion for 'breaking the loop' - for ways of deploying as much as we current do, whilst retaining our strategic 'cutting edges', all within the nominal £36Bn or so, split roughly equally between equipment and forces.
The problem the MOD has is that, on the equipment side, the 'cutting edges' keep getting more expensive in real terms. So, for example, even when you cut the total number of ships, and accept that you will only have 2 carriers + support fleet, they are still unaffordable. Or fast jets: 150-odd Typhoons, plus 60-70 JSF, and the kitty is bare. What about UCAVs or advanced missiles? Typhoon is 10yrs late, and JSF STOVL is a 'limited' strike capability by previous RAF standards. What insight, or technology, or collaborative arrangement will break the loop, and allow the MOD's £20Bn to go further, whilst ensuring the MOD is not just buying foreign?
The problem the MOD has is that, on the equipment side, the 'cutting edges' keep getting more expensive in real terms. So, for example, even when you cut the total number of ships, and accept that you will only have 2 carriers + support fleet, they are still unaffordable. Or fast jets: 150-odd Typhoons, plus 60-70 JSF, and the kitty is bare. What about UCAVs or advanced missiles? Typhoon is 10yrs late, and JSF STOVL is a 'limited' strike capability by previous RAF standards. What insight, or technology, or collaborative arrangement will break the loop, and allow the MOD's £20Bn to go further, whilst ensuring the MOD is not just buying foreign?
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What's the point of being at the top table?
One of the interesting features of the debate about whether or not the UK should try to retain its status as a serious military power is the view that if something serious happens - China attacks Tawian, Russia invades a Baltic state - we can rely on the US to do all the real combat. In the two scenarios listed above its a pretty safe bet that Uncle Sam will wade in but....maybe the other side of the pond will revert to isolationism, maybe we will fundamentally disagree about the value of trying to stop a rather nasty internal conflict. In those situations we will need proper UK armed forces.
As for the money, in the short term there could be billions available from the sale of various no-longer-required MoD assets. I accept that in the medium term there is a need to put more taxpayers money into defence. People always tell me there are no votes in defence but I've never seen a poll that says that. I've never seen a poll that says we should be spending less on defence or that we should reduce our role in the world.
As a civilian who has had various opportunities to see at close range how the British military operate (especially as self loading cargo in various sandy places) I have nothing but the highest respect for how you do the job. However the one activity that you do not seem to be that good at these days is lobbying HMG for more money. Someone once said that the Chiefs of Staff were the strongest trade union in the land. Not any more as far as I can see. The one characteristic above all that they seem to have forgotten is that unity is strength.
As for the money, in the short term there could be billions available from the sale of various no-longer-required MoD assets. I accept that in the medium term there is a need to put more taxpayers money into defence. People always tell me there are no votes in defence but I've never seen a poll that says that. I've never seen a poll that says we should be spending less on defence or that we should reduce our role in the world.
As a civilian who has had various opportunities to see at close range how the British military operate (especially as self loading cargo in various sandy places) I have nothing but the highest respect for how you do the job. However the one activity that you do not seem to be that good at these days is lobbying HMG for more money. Someone once said that the Chiefs of Staff were the strongest trade union in the land. Not any more as far as I can see. The one characteristic above all that they seem to have forgotten is that unity is strength.
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Hmmm.... buying foreign...
Apart from Challenger II, and Altberg boots, and very possibly the very current Sa80A2 with all the new attachments, I can't think of a single ship, vehicle, aircraft or item of equipment that we can produce that is better than something made abroad for less money. I'm sure some will disagree, and give me a couple of examples I may even agree with, but its still a pretty accurate generalisation. It comes down to making this budget go further, and buying off the shelf helps with that.
I am fully aware I will mention that doing this and letting British Defense inductry die is out of the question, both from a political standpoint and from a strategic standpoint. It just depresses me that we have sunk so low.
Apart from Challenger II, and Altberg boots, and very possibly the very current Sa80A2 with all the new attachments, I can't think of a single ship, vehicle, aircraft or item of equipment that we can produce that is better than something made abroad for less money. I'm sure some will disagree, and give me a couple of examples I may even agree with, but its still a pretty accurate generalisation. It comes down to making this budget go further, and buying off the shelf helps with that.
I am fully aware I will mention that doing this and letting British Defense inductry die is out of the question, both from a political standpoint and from a strategic standpoint. It just depresses me that we have sunk so low.