Bos/Kos gongs no longer allowed to be worn??
Originally Posted by dragon166
Surely DCIs are the authority for the the receipt and wear of medals. So whatever the signal said it should be followed up by a DCI. This would explain the situation as whether permission to receive and or wear has been rescinded. Normally further receipts may be curtailed but previous recipients continue to enjoy the rules as they were when permission was first granted. It normally takes a declaration of war against the issuing country for these medals to be rescinded in toto, an unlikely situation with the UN - the issuing authority.
I can understand a rumour getting about and being repeated by tailors, but if anyone really put out a signal to that effect it says a lot about their mindset that they accepted such an arbitrary unexplained decision without thought or clarification. "Not theirs to reason why".
Last edited by baffman; 13th May 2009 at 05:32. Reason: changed 1 word for clarity
Just checked my grandfather's medals. He had a GSM with Iraq and Kurdistan bars!
By the way Pontius that's a nice scarce medal, did your grandfather get WW1 medals too?
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at Odiham, where most people have more than 6 medals
Still you are a bit short when compared to this fella.
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Medals
Interesting to note that the gentleman in the picture wears both the Saudi and Kuwaiti medals from GW1. We brits are real stingy about this - what harm does it do - we earned them the hard way
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The latest DIN I can find is 2007DIN09-028. The 'news' is probably the deciding of an end date. The relevant bit is:
xiii.
xiii.
UNMIK (Kosovo): 10 Jun 99 to date to be decided.
xiv.
MONUC (Congo): 30 Nov 99 to date to be decided.
xv.
UNMEE (Ethiopia/Eritrea): 15 Sep 00 to date to be decided.
and
d.
NATO Non-Article 5 Medal:
i.
Balkans (Non-Article 5): 01 Jan 03 to date to be decided.
(Note: Macedonia [FYROM] elements ceased on 31 Mar 03. The Bosnia Herzegovina elements ceased on 01 Dec 04).
But equally interesting is this bit:
7.
The General Service Medal, 1962, with the following clasps, is currently in wear:
a.
Northern Ireland: 14 Aug 69 to 31 Jul 07.
b.
Dhofar: 01 Oct 69 to 03 Sep 76.
c.
Lebanon: 07 Feb 83 to 09 Mar 84.
d.
Mine clearance – Gulf of Suez: 15 Aug 84 to 15 Oct 84.
e.
Gulf: 17 Nov 86 to 28 Feb 89.
f.
Kuwait: 8 Mar 91 to 30 Sep 91.
g.
Northern Iraq/South Turkey: 06 Apr 91 to 17 Jul 91.
h.
Air Operations – Iraq: 16 Jul 91 to 18 Mar 03.
What seems to have happened here is that people awarded the GSM more that 40 years ago are no longer serving. Well they are wrong 
Finally I would post th eextract about wearing medals after you leave the service, but that page is protectively marked 
1962 Gsm
The General Service Medal, 1962, with the following clasps, is currently in wear:
'South Vietnam' is an incredibly rare clasp, given to the small number of Australians serving there between 1962 and 1964. Later the Vietnam Medal was struck and given exclusively to Australian and New Zealand Forces
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Other bars for the GSM around that time were 'Southern Desert, Iraq' which was exclusively awarded to the RAF and 'Northern Kurdistan'. We are now on our third Afghanistan medal, the first awarded in 1878-80, the next a bar to the India GS in 1919, and the politicians still havent learned how futile it is trying to tame the untameable.
By the way Pontius that's a nice scarce medal, did your grandfather get WW1 medals too?
By the way Pontius that's a nice scarce medal, did your grandfather get WW1 medals too?
. He has the MC, Tibet 1903-04 with Gyantse bar (he was OC the mission I believe on 6 month rotation, a 1914-1915 Star, 1914-1918 medal, Great War medal 1914-1919 with Mention, the GSM, Durbar 1911, LSGC, MSM, Croix de Guerre avec palms.We don't know the story behind the mention or the MSM. The Croix de Guerre was 'the French also gave me a medal.'
'South Vietnam' is an incredibly rare clasp, given to the small number of Australians serving there between 1962 and 1964. Later the Vietnam Medal was struck and given exclusively to Australian and New Zealand Forces
I seem to recall that our Antipodean friends were not highly delighted at receiving what was seen as an essentially British award, and particularly inappropriate in a campaign in which the UK was not officially involved. Hence the introduction of their own awards, and the use of the somewhat derogatory nickname given to the British GSM, namely the "Violet Crumble Bar", derived from a very popular Australian chocolate bar with a mainly purple foil wrapping.
Jack
I seem to recall that our Antipodean friends were not highly delighted at receiving what was seen as an essentially British award, and particularly inappropriate in a campaign in which the UK was not officially involved. Hence the introduction of their own awards, and the use of the somewhat derogatory nickname given to the British GSM, namely the "Violet Crumble Bar", derived from a very popular Australian chocolate bar with a mainly purple foil wrapping.
Jack
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Finally I would post th eextract about wearing medals after you leave the service, but that page is protectively marked
Thanks for that Wader 2.
However, seeing as I left the Service a number of years ago, so therefore DCI'S/DIN'S (or whatever they are called today) no longer affect me, I shall still wear the (HM approved and the one presented by Her personally) medals awarded to me until HM tells me otherwise.
Oh, please don't tell Her where I live.
Another thing, why does a DCI/DNI pronouncment about medal wearing after one leaves the Service be 'protectively marked'? Who, after their Service, gets DCI's/DNI's?
Thanks for that Wader 2.
However, seeing as I left the Service a number of years ago, so therefore DCI'S/DIN'S (or whatever they are called today) no longer affect me, I shall still wear the (HM approved and the one presented by Her personally) medals awarded to me until HM tells me otherwise.
Oh, please don't tell Her where I live.
Another thing, why does a DCI/DNI pronouncment about medal wearing after one leaves the Service be 'protectively marked'? Who, after their Service, gets DCI's/DNI's?
at Odiham, where most people have more than 6 medals That's because you are all god damn heros.
Could well be. Some have a better lifestyle, some get bits of tin. I know most of the guys at Odiham would cash them all in for a decent tour with a better lifestyle.
Could well be. Some have a better lifestyle, some get bits of tin. I know most of the guys at Odiham would cash them all in for a decent tour with a better lifestyle.
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TT,
......and Sir Michael has a DFC from flying Lancaster's during WWII and the AFC from when he was the OC 214 Sqdn, for the successful completion of the air to air refuelling trials!
......and Sir Michael has a DFC from flying Lancaster's during WWII and the AFC from when he was the OC 214 Sqdn, for the successful completion of the air to air refuelling trials!
I suggest that all that have been to the Tailor go back again and get their ribbons and gongs for Kosovo and Bosnia put back on - this is indeed a gross misunderstanding of a poorly worded signal.
HM Queen has granted the wear to all those within the qualifying criterion. If they have been issued under false pretences then they can be taken away, but otherwise, it is quite clear in JSP 761 you are entitled to wear them. That is the bible for all honours and awards.
I suggest that the rest of us give any medal policy Tailor "experts" a stiff ignoring - "Oi, Stitch, just do the work that I'm asking you to do!"
LJ
HM Queen has granted the wear to all those within the qualifying criterion. If they have been issued under false pretences then they can be taken away, but otherwise, it is quite clear in JSP 761 you are entitled to wear them. That is the bible for all honours and awards.
I suggest that the rest of us give any medal policy Tailor "experts" a stiff ignoring - "Oi, Stitch, just do the work that I'm asking you to do!"
LJ
Wouldn't be the first time a station tailor thought he knew what was correct when in fact he was just making it up.
I remember working along side an Army ex-ranker during my first tour; his rack of medals constituted a health and safety hazard, and his Para wings were so battered and faded he could well have got them in time for the Arnhem jump. But it was his Cdo dagger badge which caused most amusement as the tailor incorrectly insisted he had it sewn on upside down. Despite much 'explaining' said tailor took it on himself to remove the dagger and sew it on the 'right way up'.
Queue much sniggering from us, much whimpering from the tailor and much grumbling from a very angry Captain.
Get yer uniforms back down to the tailors and tell them to do as they are paid to do and not what they want to do.
I remember working along side an Army ex-ranker during my first tour; his rack of medals constituted a health and safety hazard, and his Para wings were so battered and faded he could well have got them in time for the Arnhem jump. But it was his Cdo dagger badge which caused most amusement as the tailor incorrectly insisted he had it sewn on upside down. Despite much 'explaining' said tailor took it on himself to remove the dagger and sew it on the 'right way up'.
Queue much sniggering from us, much whimpering from the tailor and much grumbling from a very angry Captain.
Get yer uniforms back down to the tailors and tell them to do as they are paid to do and not what they want to do.
Violet Crumble
Thanks for that bit of info on the GSM , Union Jack, I hadn't heard that one before, but it certainly figures. Yes Ian, I remember Sir Michael's DFC/AFC - I was staring right at the ribbons one day at Khormaksar when I was a PO as I was standing to attention getting bollocked rigid by him for some sin of ommission! (and yes, you did wear medal ribbons on KD bushjackets). He was a hard man, but obviously no fool to have made MRAF. Ive just thought, he must be the only man still serving (technically) to be wearing the Aircrew Europe Star.
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Union Jack:
Don't take offence at our propensity for giving nicknames. The GSM and the GSM1962 were the Violet Crumble Bars Mk1 and Mk2 long before Vietnam, and I don't think that was driven by anti-Pom feelings. After all, the Hoadleys Violet Crumble Bar was quite a nice sweet!
Off topic, but for those with an interest in the history of the GSM, there was a fair bit of too-ing and fro-ing about Vietnam awards. As usual, the older generation was inclined to pronounce: that's not a war, not like ours was! So we were initially a "Police Action", and I was, indeed, awarded the VCB Mk2. This I wore proudly for about a year, having served my time in VN during 1965. Up to that time, as recognised above, the Australian "Special Forces" (not their real title, but close enough to their purpose) were also awarded the GSM'62. At some point the AUS Army, having inserted their first infantry battalion into VN in mid 1965, whose tour concluded mid 1966, decided that a particular campaign award should be made. After Royal assent, the RAAF got in line, an order appeared (can't remember when, but about the end of '66) which stripped those of we RAAF personnel who had qualified for their VCBMk2, and replaced it with the VN Campaign Medal, backdated to when the first RAAF chappies arrived in country, ie August 1964. This became the first qualifying date, and also affected the Australian Advisory Team.
Now, I was quite keen to hang on to my VCB, but there was no recourse, which I still find "interesting". In principle, how can somebody be stripped of an award sans the bad behavior regulations?
There is an another consequence of this policy. Some advisors (maybe many) did a second (or more) tour. Those that had been allowed to keep their GSM then received the VN Campaign Medal, whereas those awarded the VN Medal received neither a bar nor a second award. Thus, my subsequent visits to the country received no medallic recognition whatever, along with a multitude of others, of course.
I'm sorry to have to report that the above recorded tendency of old warriors to decry the efforts of the newer generation is still evident. In my present role in veteran's affairs, and in reference to what the troops are up to now, I have heard expressions from people of my generation like: this is not a real war! etc. It makes me cringe.
Grusome
Don't take offence at our propensity for giving nicknames. The GSM and the GSM1962 were the Violet Crumble Bars Mk1 and Mk2 long before Vietnam, and I don't think that was driven by anti-Pom feelings. After all, the Hoadleys Violet Crumble Bar was quite a nice sweet!
Off topic, but for those with an interest in the history of the GSM, there was a fair bit of too-ing and fro-ing about Vietnam awards. As usual, the older generation was inclined to pronounce: that's not a war, not like ours was! So we were initially a "Police Action", and I was, indeed, awarded the VCB Mk2. This I wore proudly for about a year, having served my time in VN during 1965. Up to that time, as recognised above, the Australian "Special Forces" (not their real title, but close enough to their purpose) were also awarded the GSM'62. At some point the AUS Army, having inserted their first infantry battalion into VN in mid 1965, whose tour concluded mid 1966, decided that a particular campaign award should be made. After Royal assent, the RAAF got in line, an order appeared (can't remember when, but about the end of '66) which stripped those of we RAAF personnel who had qualified for their VCBMk2, and replaced it with the VN Campaign Medal, backdated to when the first RAAF chappies arrived in country, ie August 1964. This became the first qualifying date, and also affected the Australian Advisory Team.
Now, I was quite keen to hang on to my VCB, but there was no recourse, which I still find "interesting". In principle, how can somebody be stripped of an award sans the bad behavior regulations?
There is an another consequence of this policy. Some advisors (maybe many) did a second (or more) tour. Those that had been allowed to keep their GSM then received the VN Campaign Medal, whereas those awarded the VN Medal received neither a bar nor a second award. Thus, my subsequent visits to the country received no medallic recognition whatever, along with a multitude of others, of course.
I'm sorry to have to report that the above recorded tendency of old warriors to decry the efforts of the newer generation is still evident. In my present role in veteran's affairs, and in reference to what the troops are up to now, I have heard expressions from people of my generation like: this is not a real war! etc. It makes me cringe.
Grusome
Violet crumble
Very interesting post Grusome. Do you have any idea of the numbers who received the South Vietnam clasp, and how many actually returned them in exchange for the Vietnam Service medal? In 30+ years dealing in medals I've never actually seen one, nor can I recall one being offered for sale. The current medal catalogue doesnt even bother to put a market value against them - just says "Rare" - I suspect there would be a few noughts on the end of the price if ever one did come up for sale.
I used to get a lot of "they dont know what a real war is" sort of stuff from the older generation when I had a militaria shop, but as my son has served in Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan (he managed to dodge Iraq, the skiver) they got short shrift from me. The guys that come off the back of a C17 in a box at Brize are just as dead as those whe fell on the Somme or in Normandy, thankfully there are fewer of them, that's all.
I used to get a lot of "they dont know what a real war is" sort of stuff from the older generation when I had a militaria shop, but as my son has served in Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan (he managed to dodge Iraq, the skiver) they got short shrift from me. The guys that come off the back of a C17 in a box at Brize are just as dead as those whe fell on the Somme or in Normandy, thankfully there are fewer of them, that's all.
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Nav1,
I would hazard a guess at about 250-350 RAAF gazetted. However, I can't even guess at how many were pinned as against how many simply had the tailor do the right thing with a ribbon once gazetted. I was of the latter class, not actually having had the gong in my hot little hand - that side of the business was notoriously slow in those days.
Nevertheless, I remain ungruntled about the withdrawal of the offer, so to speak.
Gru
I would hazard a guess at about 250-350 RAAF gazetted. However, I can't even guess at how many were pinned as against how many simply had the tailor do the right thing with a ribbon once gazetted. I was of the latter class, not actually having had the gong in my hot little hand - that side of the business was notoriously slow in those days.
Nevertheless, I remain ungruntled about the withdrawal of the offer, so to speak.
Gru
Don't take offence at our propensity for giving nicknames
And absolutely none taken at any time, Grusome, by someone who thoroughly enjoyed two very happy years of exchange service with the RAN. I'm only glad that I provoked such a detailed reply, not least at the extraordinary situation revealed in the penultimate paragraph of your post, and Tankertrashnav is also clearly grateful.
Curiously enough, it reminds me how cross some of us in dark blue were when the Naval GSM 1915 was superseded by the GSM 1962, which bears a very close ressemblance to the junior services' previous GSM, right in the middle of Confrontasi!
Jack
PS Purely on the chocolate front, I suspect many of our lot would prefer a simple CDM to the rather sickly VCB .....
And absolutely none taken at any time, Grusome, by someone who thoroughly enjoyed two very happy years of exchange service with the RAN. I'm only glad that I provoked such a detailed reply, not least at the extraordinary situation revealed in the penultimate paragraph of your post, and Tankertrashnav is also clearly grateful.
Curiously enough, it reminds me how cross some of us in dark blue were when the Naval GSM 1915 was superseded by the GSM 1962, which bears a very close ressemblance to the junior services' previous GSM, right in the middle of Confrontasi!
Jack
PS Purely on the chocolate front, I suspect many of our lot would prefer a simple CDM to the rather sickly VCB .....