Typhoon news or already covered in other topic?
Thread Starter
Typhoon news or already covered in other topic?
Came across this in the NY Times international edition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/bu...tml?ref=global
LH
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/bu...tml?ref=global
LH
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Julie Parry, a spokeswoman at the Ministry of Defense, confirmed that British Defense and Finance Ministry officials had met to discuss the Eurofighter project on Monday.
“There might be a decision over the next couple of days,” Ms. Parry said, adding that a payment for the third of the three installments “has been stalled.”
The possibility that London might cancel its order for 88 more jets provoked a warning from the British aviation industry over damage to the country’s military capacity and a “brain drain” of technology engineers.
“There might be a decision over the next couple of days,” Ms. Parry said, adding that a payment for the third of the three installments “has been stalled.”
The possibility that London might cancel its order for 88 more jets provoked a warning from the British aviation industry over damage to the country’s military capacity and a “brain drain” of technology engineers.
Chances for A400M to see service in the RAF?
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I thought I read recently that the penalty payments would cost more than just going ahead and buying this tranche... in which case, surely the most cost effective solution would be buy the ac then sell them at whatever price we can get. If they can't be sold, mothball them at Shawbury until the world economy picks up. If this is being cancelled just to keep the media happy then it's just another defence procurement disaster. If it's the bottom line that counts, forget the front pages.
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Mail On Sunday yesterday quotes BAe winning an order worth upto £1.6 billion to sell 24 Typhoons to the Omani Air Force to replace their aging Jaguars.
If true that only leaves 64 to find ahome for!!
If true that only leaves 64 to find ahome for!!
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THink this has lots to do with product lifecycle costs rather than initial purchase price.
Having said that, this is not exactly a good sign is it? What sort of warfighting ability are they planning for us to have if defence procurement is getting paired to the bone?
Having said that, this is not exactly a good sign is it? What sort of warfighting ability are they planning for us to have if defence procurement is getting paired to the bone?
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Worry not chaps, Uncle Gord and his puppet theatre have it all in hand; http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/D7524677-281D-44BF-B3E5-F45C48E01F8A/0/tlmapr09.pdf
As JSP101 was probably a mystery to the (no doubt) bright young thing who drafted it, I can’t make easy references. So, pretty well down the document (in priority order?)
SECTION 3 - Equipment and LOGISTIC Support
Supporting Lines:
Second blob
Key Facts:
Fourth blob
Fifth blob
No mention of Tranche 3 ‘Phoon. Bugger all to do with the Thread but no mention of Nimrod MK4 nor tankers.
As JSP101 was probably a mystery to the (no doubt) bright young thing who drafted it, I can’t make easy references. So, pretty well down the document (in priority order?)
SECTION 3 - Equipment and LOGISTIC Support
Top Line:
Since 2006, we have delivered equipment valued at more than £10 billion to the Armed Forces. We give priority to equipping people on, and training for, operations but also ensure that we provide the necessary core capabilities for our forces over the longer term.
Since 2006, we have delivered equipment valued at more than £10 billion to the Armed Forces. We give priority to equipping people on, and training for, operations but also ensure that we provide the necessary core capabilities for our forces over the longer term.
Second blob
[Alongside industry, we continue to tackle the challenges in the complex business of delivering high quality battle-winning equipment for our forces; but the HCDC report on Defence Equipment praises the speed with which we are delivering vital equipment to our Armed Forces on the front-line and we remain committed to the Defence Industrial Strategy. We are working closely with industry to develop it further and its principles are firmly embedded in the way we conduct business with the defence industry.
Key Facts:
Fourth blob
On 1st July 2008, Eurofighter Typhoon was declared multi-role capable, suitable for precision Ground Attack as well as Air Defence tasks. Delivery of Typhoon Tranche 2 commenced on time and to cost, with the first two aircraft delivered to RAF Coningsby on 21st October 2008]
Fifth blob
Since 2006, we have increased the number of UK helicopter hours (and airframes) available to commanders in Southern Afghanistan by 60%. We are also increasing the overall size of our deployable battlefield helicopter fleet through the conversion of eight Chinook Mk3 helicopters to the support helicopter role, the acquisition of six Merlin medium helicopters from Denmark, and the upgrading of 12 Lynx Light Helicopters with powerful new engines to allow them to operate in Afghanistan all-year round.
No mention of Tranche 3 ‘Phoon. Bugger all to do with the Thread but no mention of Nimrod MK4 nor tankers.
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If one's making mega-bucks and has at least two nicely fitted out houses out of it, it's surprising how the priorities change !
Anyway if someone bothers to bomb us ( which would be silly as bombs are expensive ) what are the chances of hitting one's country seats compared to the cheek by jowel plebs ?
- I hadn't heard the Chinese are building Lancasters, is that for selling to rich collectors or real use ? And what engines ?
If this was April 1st I'd be a touch more suspicious than I am already.
I know the Russians tried it with B-29's, the story has it they even replicated battle damage repairs but I think they've proven brighter than that.
Anyway if someone bothers to bomb us ( which would be silly as bombs are expensive ) what are the chances of hitting one's country seats compared to the cheek by jowel plebs ?
- I hadn't heard the Chinese are building Lancasters, is that for selling to rich collectors or real use ? And what engines ?
If this was April 1st I'd be a touch more suspicious than I am already.
I know the Russians tried it with B-29's, the story has it they even replicated battle damage repairs but I think they've proven brighter than that.
Last edited by Double Zero; 12th May 2009 at 17:25.
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Considering this is the last FJ we shall ever build and that the RAF is a lot smaller than when I left it in 1990 (and we thought it too small to defend the country then), I cannot understand the logic.
But perhaps there isn't any or they are sure that no-one will ever attack us again!!
But perhaps there isn't any or they are sure that no-one will ever attack us again!!
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UK Ready to Sign Eurofighter Deal
13 May 09 - 01:59am LONDON (Reuters)
Britain is set to approve the latest order of Eurofighter jets but is examining ways of containing its cost, according to a report in Wednesday's edition of the Financial Times.
Following intervention by business secretary Peter Mandelson, Prime Minister Gordon Brown has ruled out cancelling the order because of the impact on jobs and the risk of damage to Britain's reputation as a reliable industrial partner, the FT said in an unsourced report.
Britain had been opposing the purchase for cost reasons, European defence sources said last month, putting on hold an order for 112 jets costing some $10 billion (6.54 billion pounds) split between German, Italy and Spain as well as Britain.
The FT said a final decision on the details of the contract payments and production plans was expected within days.
A Downing Street spokeswoman declined comment on the FT report and said there had been no change to the government's position on the order.
An executive of Italy's Finmeccanica said late last month it expected a deal to secure the third round of production of the Eurofighter within a month despite British opposition.
Finmeccanica is one of the jet's manufacturers, alongside BAE Systems and EADS. They have warned production lines could close with the loss of thousands of jobs from 2012 without a deal.
Following intervention by business secretary Peter Mandelson, Prime Minister Gordon Brown has ruled out cancelling the order because of the impact on jobs and the risk of damage to Britain's reputation as a reliable industrial partner, the FT said in an unsourced report.
Britain had been opposing the purchase for cost reasons, European defence sources said last month, putting on hold an order for 112 jets costing some $10 billion (6.54 billion pounds) split between German, Italy and Spain as well as Britain.
The FT said a final decision on the details of the contract payments and production plans was expected within days.
A Downing Street spokeswoman declined comment on the FT report and said there had been no change to the government's position on the order.
An executive of Italy's Finmeccanica said late last month it expected a deal to secure the third round of production of the Eurofighter within a month despite British opposition.
Finmeccanica is one of the jet's manufacturers, alongside BAE Systems and EADS. They have warned production lines could close with the loss of thousands of jobs from 2012 without a deal.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
We already have an agreement to be able to offset the majority of T3 against the Saudi order. The sticking point has been the cost of the remaining 12-16 jets which the RAF would take, about £1.5 billion.
If we have an order from Oman for 24 jets then we should be able to offset that as well resolving the issue.
If we have an order from Oman for 24 jets then we should be able to offset that as well resolving the issue.
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Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure I don't need to say that!) but isn't that "offset" a delay? At a later date, DE&S would still buy the "offset" 16 machines? To do otherwise, the established export potential of the aeroplane will have been diluted.
The important point there, though, would be for the fly-away price for the Omanis to be a true and mature production price; as would the subsequent British ones. The systemic flaw there, of course, is that the MoD is allowed no funding contribution from Trade and Industry, or whatever we call that element of Government this week.
The important point there, though, would be for the fly-away price for the Omanis to be a true and mature production price; as would the subsequent British ones. The systemic flaw there, of course, is that the MoD is allowed no funding contribution from Trade and Industry, or whatever we call that element of Government this week.
UK ready to sign up for Eurofighter
More information on the reasoning (if such a capability exists in Broon) and implications are in an article in today's FT.
That final sentence whilst stating the obvious signals the start of another round of damaging infighting. 
Gordon Brown is set to sign off on the UK’s latest order of Eurofighter Typhoon jets, but is still examining options on how to contain production costs. Following an intervention by Lord Mandelson, business secretary, the British prime minister has ruled out cancelling the order because of the cost to jobs and the UK’s reputation. A final decision on the details of the contract payments and production timetable is expected within days, with key cabinet ministers scheduled to meet Mr Brown on Thursday.
Backing for the programme came as unemployment in the first quarter jumped by the most since 1981, leaving 2.22m people unemployed. The move will end months of speculation over the future of the four-nation programme. Mr Brown has come under intense pressure from the leaders of Germany, Italy and Spain – the UK’s programme partners – to stop holding up the aircraft’s third production run by making an overdue €1.6bn ($2.2bn, £1.4bn) payment.
The prime minister is anxious to avoid antagonising Angela Merkel, German chancellor, who has become a key ally in Europe. Berlin wants a decision from the UK this week in order to allow the authorisation of payments before the German elections in September.
Failing to make meet the deadline could cost the UK government £500m ($762m, €559m) in penalties, according to defence insiders, because the order of key manufacturing items would be delayed for months. Mr Brown is expected to allow the project to continue without significant disruption but he is still considering several options to keep down costs. These include tweaking the schedule for payments and the timescale of production. Britain is also attempting to sell parts of the third production run to other countries, including Saudi Arabia, which is tempted to add to its existing order of earlier Eurofighter models. But there are constraints in the contract regarding export sales, meaning Britain would need permission from its partners.
Lord Mandelson warned colleagues on the margins of Tuesday’s cabinet meeting, including Alistair Darling, chancellor, that the contract was not just important for British industry but was a vital reputational issue for the country. The minister, a former European Union trade commissioner, argued that Britain would be branded an “unreliable partner” by other European countries if it disrupted the prestigious aircraft project. Under the terms of the contract, the UK is obliged to buy 88 aircraft from the third run. But production plans have been scaled back and split into two separate batches, leaving Britain with a bill of about €1.6bn for 16 aircraft, once exports are taking into account. Cancellation of the order would have cost the UK more than £2bn in penalties and broken contingent deals on maintenance and upgrades, leaving Britain facing yet higher bills. It emerged as a serious option, in spite of the initial costs, because of serious budgetary problems at Britain’s Ministry of Defence.
Signing off on the Eurofighter is expected to have knock-on effects on other UK defence equipment programmes, as the MoD seeks to balance this year’s budget.
Backing for the programme came as unemployment in the first quarter jumped by the most since 1981, leaving 2.22m people unemployed. The move will end months of speculation over the future of the four-nation programme. Mr Brown has come under intense pressure from the leaders of Germany, Italy and Spain – the UK’s programme partners – to stop holding up the aircraft’s third production run by making an overdue €1.6bn ($2.2bn, £1.4bn) payment.
The prime minister is anxious to avoid antagonising Angela Merkel, German chancellor, who has become a key ally in Europe. Berlin wants a decision from the UK this week in order to allow the authorisation of payments before the German elections in September.
Failing to make meet the deadline could cost the UK government £500m ($762m, €559m) in penalties, according to defence insiders, because the order of key manufacturing items would be delayed for months. Mr Brown is expected to allow the project to continue without significant disruption but he is still considering several options to keep down costs. These include tweaking the schedule for payments and the timescale of production. Britain is also attempting to sell parts of the third production run to other countries, including Saudi Arabia, which is tempted to add to its existing order of earlier Eurofighter models. But there are constraints in the contract regarding export sales, meaning Britain would need permission from its partners.
Lord Mandelson warned colleagues on the margins of Tuesday’s cabinet meeting, including Alistair Darling, chancellor, that the contract was not just important for British industry but was a vital reputational issue for the country. The minister, a former European Union trade commissioner, argued that Britain would be branded an “unreliable partner” by other European countries if it disrupted the prestigious aircraft project. Under the terms of the contract, the UK is obliged to buy 88 aircraft from the third run. But production plans have been scaled back and split into two separate batches, leaving Britain with a bill of about €1.6bn for 16 aircraft, once exports are taking into account. Cancellation of the order would have cost the UK more than £2bn in penalties and broken contingent deals on maintenance and upgrades, leaving Britain facing yet higher bills. It emerged as a serious option, in spite of the initial costs, because of serious budgetary problems at Britain’s Ministry of Defence.
Signing off on the Eurofighter is expected to have knock-on effects on other UK defence equipment programmes, as the MoD seeks to balance this year’s budget.
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As I understand it tranche 3 consists of 88 aircraft. This is being split into two batches in order to postpone some of the pain (payments).
The first batch consists of 40 aircraft. Saudi order is, currently, for 72 aircraft but only 24 of these being built in UK. The remainder to be assembled/built in Saudi
. Therefore only 24 can be offset against T3 first batch. Leaving 16 for the RAF.
Presumably the Omani order will be offset gainst the second batch of 44.
Must go. Got to pack a suitcase for Taif.
The first batch consists of 40 aircraft. Saudi order is, currently, for 72 aircraft but only 24 of these being built in UK. The remainder to be assembled/built in Saudi
. Therefore only 24 can be offset against T3 first batch. Leaving 16 for the RAF.Presumably the Omani order will be offset gainst the second batch of 44.
Must go. Got to pack a suitcase for Taif.
Argh!
ORAC especially (but you too, DougieB2), you're wrong.
You've made the fundamental error of believing the FT/Telegraph originated bol.locks that Tranche 3A will consist of only 16 new and additional jets for the RAF, because 24 of the T3A total of 40 will be replacements for export aircraft.
I'm told by industry and the customer that this is utter and complete nonsense.
The 24 Saudi jets being built at Warton are using RAF 'line positions' within Tranche 2. Were that 'it' then the RAF would be receiving only 67 of the Tranche 2 Typhoons that it ordered.
However (and both BAE and the IPT - the latter via the MoD press office) have both independently confirmed that these aircraft are being replaced (as was stated at the time) by aircraft being 'tacked onto' the end of Tranche 2. The confusion arises as they are (according to BAE's Typhoon production manager) subject to a separate 'diversion and replacement' contract or agreement.
However, both the MoD and BAE agree that the aircraft are ALREADY irrevocably on order.
Unlike Tranche 3/3A which remains to be signed. The 24 Saudi 'divert replacements' are additional to and CANNOT be part of Tranche 3, though there would still be scope for the aircraft to be completed to Tranche 3 standards if this differs from the late Tranche 2 standard. (It was once planned to, and then wasn't).
Tranche 3A is scoped at 40 jets for the RAF. This would take total UK orders to 184 and the RAF would receive somewhere south of 178 aircraft (the total includes the MAFT, IPAs, ISPAs, etc).
ORAC especially (but you too, DougieB2), you're wrong.
You've made the fundamental error of believing the FT/Telegraph originated bol.locks that Tranche 3A will consist of only 16 new and additional jets for the RAF, because 24 of the T3A total of 40 will be replacements for export aircraft.
I'm told by industry and the customer that this is utter and complete nonsense.
The 24 Saudi jets being built at Warton are using RAF 'line positions' within Tranche 2. Were that 'it' then the RAF would be receiving only 67 of the Tranche 2 Typhoons that it ordered.
However (and both BAE and the IPT - the latter via the MoD press office) have both independently confirmed that these aircraft are being replaced (as was stated at the time) by aircraft being 'tacked onto' the end of Tranche 2. The confusion arises as they are (according to BAE's Typhoon production manager) subject to a separate 'diversion and replacement' contract or agreement.
However, both the MoD and BAE agree that the aircraft are ALREADY irrevocably on order.
Unlike Tranche 3/3A which remains to be signed. The 24 Saudi 'divert replacements' are additional to and CANNOT be part of Tranche 3, though there would still be scope for the aircraft to be completed to Tranche 3 standards if this differs from the late Tranche 2 standard. (It was once planned to, and then wasn't).
Tranche 3A is scoped at 40 jets for the RAF. This would take total UK orders to 184 and the RAF would receive somewhere south of 178 aircraft (the total includes the MAFT, IPAs, ISPAs, etc).
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Dam-Busters
Biggus,
While slightly off thread ( you started it first, I am thus blameless ) there's a pretty good display of 617's exploits at Tangmere, though it was nothing to do with the place...
There's an example of the ' Y ' shaped hand held target marker ( relative to the two towers on the Dam to give distance off ) - when people try it and back off to get the right position, they find they're standing on the marked spot on the floor.
As for G.Gibson's un-PC dog, there's a group photo taken after the war with a black Labrador in front; thing is, no members of the group saw the dog at the time, it only appeared in the print.
I would have dismissed this as B.S. myself, but I and others have seen some strange things at Tangmere, though not related to Nigger.
We do get the odd misguided Bader fan; let's say he wasn't anything like the Kenneth More portrayal, I used to work with someone who was groundcrew at the time; when Bader was shot down - which he later claimed was a collision - a party was held at Tangmere !
I also met a Spitfire pilot who'd been shot down early on in the Battle Of Britain and shared a POW camp with him ( before he made himself awkward and the Germans wittilly posted him to Colditz ) ; " Oh, we all had a good word to say for Bader, but I can't repeat it in front of your wife ! "
Moderators, this post started as a reply, but you may feel it best suited to the Aviation History section or the bin, though everything related is first hand, rather than a 'friend of a friend' related story.
As for the Typhoons, is it possible and finacially viable to update the earlier versions to Tranche 3 standard ?
DZ
While slightly off thread ( you started it first, I am thus blameless ) there's a pretty good display of 617's exploits at Tangmere, though it was nothing to do with the place...
There's an example of the ' Y ' shaped hand held target marker ( relative to the two towers on the Dam to give distance off ) - when people try it and back off to get the right position, they find they're standing on the marked spot on the floor.
As for G.Gibson's un-PC dog, there's a group photo taken after the war with a black Labrador in front; thing is, no members of the group saw the dog at the time, it only appeared in the print.
I would have dismissed this as B.S. myself, but I and others have seen some strange things at Tangmere, though not related to Nigger.
We do get the odd misguided Bader fan; let's say he wasn't anything like the Kenneth More portrayal, I used to work with someone who was groundcrew at the time; when Bader was shot down - which he later claimed was a collision - a party was held at Tangmere !
I also met a Spitfire pilot who'd been shot down early on in the Battle Of Britain and shared a POW camp with him ( before he made himself awkward and the Germans wittilly posted him to Colditz ) ; " Oh, we all had a good word to say for Bader, but I can't repeat it in front of your wife ! "
Moderators, this post started as a reply, but you may feel it best suited to the Aviation History section or the bin, though everything related is first hand, rather than a 'friend of a friend' related story.
As for the Typhoons, is it possible and finacially viable to update the earlier versions to Tranche 3 standard ?
DZ
Last edited by Double Zero; 13th May 2009 at 17:59.