Buccaneer versus Tornado: there's only one way to find out...
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Nomadic
Posts: 1,343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thermal Limits
For what it is worth, even the F-111 only had limiting Skin Temp that generally kicked in above approx M2.2, and I have occasionally seen it NOT to be a factor until M2.3+. 
Presume Bucc - For all its glory cannot go there, and the Tornado lacks enough (internal) fuel to sustain that number for any time sufficient to be a factor, and B4 you raise the Tornado's fuel - If it carreid External Tannks to go the distance, its Fuel Tank Drag = No-Go to much above the Mach 1 number (Ignoring of course the Release to Servie Lims
).
SR-71 on the other hand......
Presume Bucc - For all its glory cannot go there, and the Tornado lacks enough (internal) fuel to sustain that number for any time sufficient to be a factor, and B4 you raise the Tornado's fuel - If it carreid External Tannks to go the distance, its Fuel Tank Drag = No-Go to much above the Mach 1 number (Ignoring of course the Release to Servie Lims
). SR-71 on the other hand......
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Racedo blows goats
Posts: 677
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Parrot
Setting up the locked on ranges was a pig, In the end we asked the crews where they would like it to be most accurate as the output tended to be non-linear.
regards
retard
regards
retard
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, New York, Paris, Moscow.
Posts: 3,632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wasn't the Bucc the booby prize once all the other projects had been cancelled?
From my sketchy history it went TSR 2, F-111K, Buccaneer. I understand from previous threads that the TSR 2 was never realy going to work (even if it looked great). Given that the F-111 made it to service was it much better than the Bucc, and would the Tornado have ever been required?
Wasn't the F-111 even considered a strategic bomber in one version, could it have done the black buck raids?
From my sketchy history it went TSR 2, F-111K, Buccaneer. I understand from previous threads that the TSR 2 was never realy going to work (even if it looked great). Given that the F-111 made it to service was it much better than the Bucc, and would the Tornado have ever been required?
Wasn't the F-111 even considered a strategic bomber in one version, could it have done the black buck raids?
Last edited by Ivan Rogov; 26th Apr 2009 at 20:43.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: NOTTINGHAM
Posts: 758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
glad rag
An extract from '12 Squadron Buccaneers' which was released as a support film (in the days when cinemas showed such things) in the late 70s (I had just left the squadron) before the 'big movie'. An excellent production directed by Hugh Hudson before he made Chariots of Fire.
Foldie
YouTube - RAF Buccaneer - NATO Opengate - Low Level Anti-Ship
Foldie
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chippenham, Wilts
Age: 75
Posts: 297
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ivan Rogof
The F111 was indeed a strategic asset. It operated, in USAF service, with SAC and TAC. Exercises Giant Voice (US) and Double Top (UK) involved them both at some time.
3P
The F111 was indeed a strategic asset. It operated, in USAF service, with SAC and TAC. Exercises Giant Voice (US) and Double Top (UK) involved them both at some time.
3P
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 60
Posts: 664
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ivan, the FB-111 was the SAC-umcized version.
The F-111D/F were tactical.
As for 'doing it,' yes, they could have.
F-111Fs were the strikers for the 1986 Libya raid - UK to Tripoli and back going the long way around France and Spain, some 12 hours in the seats.
As always, the key to any sort of operation is tanker support, some 29 tankers supporting this raid.
When the United Kingdom canceled its order for the F-111K in 1968, 48 K-model airframes in early production were converted to FB-111As.[31] The FB-111A featured longer F-111B wings for greater range and load-carrying ability. The bomber variant was 2 ft 1 in (63 cm) longer than the F-111A.
[32] Its fuel capacity was increased by 585 gallons (2,214 L) and had stronger landing gear to compensate for the higher maximum takeoff weight of 119,250 lb (54,105 kg). All but the first aircraft had the Triple Plow 2 intakes and the TF30-P-7 with 12,500 lbf (56 kN) dry and 20,350 lbf (90 kN) afterburning thrust.[33]
The FB-111A had new electronics, known as the SAC Mk IIB suite. The Mk IIB retained the F-111A's Texas Instruments AN/ANPQ-134 terrain-following radar and Honeywell AN/APN-167 radar altimeter. Radar was the General Electric AN/APQ-114, with a new north-oriented display, a beacon tracking mode, and a photo recording mode. To those components, the FB-111A added a Rockwell AN/AJN-16 inertial navigation system, Singer-Kearfott AN/APN-185 Doppler radar, and the Litton AN/ASQ-119 Astrotracker astrocompass, which allowed navigation by stellar positioning (a similar system had been used on the SR-71 Blackbird). A Horizontal Situation Display was added along with the AN/AYK-6 cockpit display. A unique feature of the FB-111A was that the TFR was integrated into the automatic flight control system, allowing "hands-off" flight at high speeds and low levels (down to 200 ft), even in adverse weather.
[32] Its fuel capacity was increased by 585 gallons (2,214 L) and had stronger landing gear to compensate for the higher maximum takeoff weight of 119,250 lb (54,105 kg). All but the first aircraft had the Triple Plow 2 intakes and the TF30-P-7 with 12,500 lbf (56 kN) dry and 20,350 lbf (90 kN) afterburning thrust.[33]
The FB-111A had new electronics, known as the SAC Mk IIB suite. The Mk IIB retained the F-111A's Texas Instruments AN/ANPQ-134 terrain-following radar and Honeywell AN/APN-167 radar altimeter. Radar was the General Electric AN/APQ-114, with a new north-oriented display, a beacon tracking mode, and a photo recording mode. To those components, the FB-111A added a Rockwell AN/AJN-16 inertial navigation system, Singer-Kearfott AN/APN-185 Doppler radar, and the Litton AN/ASQ-119 Astrotracker astrocompass, which allowed navigation by stellar positioning (a similar system had been used on the SR-71 Blackbird). A Horizontal Situation Display was added along with the AN/AYK-6 cockpit display. A unique feature of the FB-111A was that the TFR was integrated into the automatic flight control system, allowing "hands-off" flight at high speeds and low levels (down to 200 ft), even in adverse weather.
The F-111D/F were tactical.
As for 'doing it,' yes, they could have.
F-111Fs were the strikers for the 1986 Libya raid - UK to Tripoli and back going the long way around France and Spain, some 12 hours in the seats.
As always, the key to any sort of operation is tanker support, some 29 tankers supporting this raid.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
During Gulf War Mk 1, Operation Granby, Buccaneers flew out to Bahrain with ony 3 days notice to provide a Laser designation capability for the Tornado. All the Buccaneers flew 9 hour flights direct to Muharraq with tanker support and had no problem with oil consumption. Previously in the early days of Martel I flew a 9 hour sortie on a trial also with no problem.
At a late stage of the Gulf War, once Air Supremacy had been gained, the Buccaneers were carrying their own Paveway bombs and on one sortie, when the Tornados had missed the target and had to Bingo out because of fuel, the Buccaneers remained behind, self designated, took the targets out, climbed to 39000 feet, overtook the Tornados who were plugged in to the tanker and arrived back at base 40 minutes before the Tonkas.
At a Reception following the War in an unguarded moment General de la Billiere quietly said that the Buccaneer had "saved the Tornado's Bacon".
The Buccaneer Team did a brilliant and, as ever, unsung job.
At a late stage of the Gulf War, once Air Supremacy had been gained, the Buccaneers were carrying their own Paveway bombs and on one sortie, when the Tornados had missed the target and had to Bingo out because of fuel, the Buccaneers remained behind, self designated, took the targets out, climbed to 39000 feet, overtook the Tornados who were plugged in to the tanker and arrived back at base 40 minutes before the Tonkas.
At a Reception following the War in an unguarded moment General de la Billiere quietly said that the Buccaneer had "saved the Tornado's Bacon".
The Buccaneer Team did a brilliant and, as ever, unsung job.
The Buccaneer Team did a brilliant and, as ever, unsung job.
Mind you, if you add up the number of Tanker, Tornado and Buccaneer sorties needed for all that bridge-plinking and then think how many Vulcans (with updated avionics) would have been needed for the job....
Our stupid MoD and its 'capability holidays'........
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wouldn't mind betting that they're wrinkly old bu**ers now!
As a not so wrinkly, but equally old bu**er and and a one time Navrad leader of the better Honington based Squadron, I can concur that the Blue Parrot was not the best aid at low level over land. Despite using the tried an tested methods of the V-Force the night low level nav and bombing exercises were not particularly successful and very unpopular with the crews. However I did get three very good pentax SLR cameras for my troubles. They were used to record the "marking" of the en-route targets.
As a not so wrinkly, but equally old bu**er and and a one time Navrad leader of the better Honington based Squadron, I can concur that the Blue Parrot was not the best aid at low level over land. Despite using the tried an tested methods of the V-Force the night low level nav and bombing exercises were not particularly successful and very unpopular with the crews. However I did get three very good pentax SLR cameras for my troubles. They were used to record the "marking" of the en-route targets.
Last edited by Romeo Oscar Golf; 27th Apr 2009 at 09:41. Reason: Adding some meat to the bones
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: YES
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wasn't the Bucc ment to get the INS system fitted to the Jaguar as part of an upgrade?
Certainly remember the pics and video of Buccaneers over Lebanon in the 80's. Just a pity HMG's of various persuasions didn't invest in the Buccaneer as it was certainly a world class aircraft.
Certainly remember the pics and video of Buccaneers over Lebanon in the 80's. Just a pity HMG's of various persuasions didn't invest in the Buccaneer as it was certainly a world class aircraft.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think anyone doubts the capability of the crews or the Buccaneer itself, but it's pointless going down the road of what if? (upgraded avionics, reheat etc etc). You might as well say what if the Tornado had a bubble canopy, twin fins and better engines? 
The Pave Spike Buccs did a great job, but if yr looking at bombs on target vs bombs dropped, it's hard to beat the GR1/TIALD combination in '91. Sod all training or work-up, the 2nd pod being made up of spares for the first and yet were the 2nd highest scoring system in theatre (behind the F117).
The Pave Spike Buccs did a great job, but if yr looking at bombs on target vs bombs dropped, it's hard to beat the GR1/TIALD combination in '91. Sod all training or work-up, the 2nd pod being made up of spares for the first and yet were the 2nd highest scoring system in theatre (behind the F117).
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North West England
Age: 54
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sandra and Tracey - the TIALD pods at Tabuk, looked after by a bunch of long-haired civvies, who must have been on lots of money. The pods were hard-wired into the L/H shoulder pylons, so if the a/c went t*ts, the pod had to be dis-connected and re-connected in a tortuous process.
Lots of good videos from that time, including the rather dis-concerting sight (for groundcrew) of an IQAF Land Rover speeding into a Mk3 HAS about 10 seconds before 2 1000LB LGBs' marmalised it.
Dug a slit trench well away from the HASs' when we got back to Laarbruch!
Lots of good videos from that time, including the rather dis-concerting sight (for groundcrew) of an IQAF Land Rover speeding into a Mk3 HAS about 10 seconds before 2 1000LB LGBs' marmalised it.
Dug a slit trench well away from the HASs' when we got back to Laarbruch!
Last edited by Gaz ED; 27th Apr 2009 at 12:35. Reason: Speling
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Wherever the nearest braai is?
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Buccaneer low level
Angels,
you asked to see some low level stuff...
Try here, Blackburn Buccaneer Homepage EVERYTHING Buccaneer
a video I quickly put together about 2 years ago of low level Bucc's with some of my pics!
Unfortunately, the music I added with the vid, which was awesome,
has been removed by Youtube as Nickleback where not happy!
(Guess it was their music!!!)
A fitting title though, "Where have all the good times gone?"
Also all the R/T from the self designated Pavespike attack on the
Iraqi An-12 from Gulf War 1 has gone too which is equally unfortunate!
However, I'm sure the low level part shall hit the spot if?
If you REALLY want to see it with sound, I can dig out my original
'Faster, Longer, Lower'
and yes, she was ('is' if you're in Cape Town) better looking!
This pic was taken during the flypasts seen on the video from my link above.
All the usual data removed so not to upset pprune rules
AB
AB
you asked to see some low level stuff...
Try here, Blackburn Buccaneer Homepage EVERYTHING Buccaneer
a video I quickly put together about 2 years ago of low level Bucc's with some of my pics!
Unfortunately, the music I added with the vid, which was awesome,
has been removed by Youtube as Nickleback where not happy!
(Guess it was their music!!!)
A fitting title though, "Where have all the good times gone?"
Also all the R/T from the self designated Pavespike attack on the
Iraqi An-12 from Gulf War 1 has gone too which is equally unfortunate!
However, I'm sure the low level part shall hit the spot if?
If you REALLY want to see it with sound, I can dig out my original
'Faster, Longer, Lower'
and yes, she was ('is' if you're in Cape Town) better looking!
This pic was taken during the flypasts seen on the video from my link above.
All the usual data removed so not to upset pprune rules
AB
AB
Last edited by Snapshot; 27th Apr 2009 at 15:19.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: NOTTINGHAM
Posts: 758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jinda,
Alas, not so, as I had been posted and only took part in the pre-sequencing still shots at Gib on the previous detachment!
ROG,
Aha, not so, unless you are referring to our livers but then you guys on 208 never could drink!
Foldie
some incredibly good-looking blokes in that film
ROG,
I wouldn't mind betting that they're wrinkly old bu**ers now!
Foldie
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, New York, Paris, Moscow.
Posts: 3,632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Foldie - some incredibly good-looking blokes in that film?
Looked like a fun detachment!
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Dunfermline
Age: 72
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gaz Ed
"Sandra and Tracey - the TIALD pods at Tabuk, looked after by a bunch of long-haired civvies, who must have been on lots of money. The pods were hard-wired into the L/H shoulder pylons, so if the a/c went t*ts, the pod had to be dis-connected and re-connected in a tortuous process. "
I object to being called a lomg-haired civvy, lol, and they were not hard wired they used the same connector they use today.
Ian
"Sandra and Tracey - the TIALD pods at Tabuk, looked after by a bunch of long-haired civvies, who must have been on lots of money. The pods were hard-wired into the L/H shoulder pylons, so if the a/c went t*ts, the pod had to be dis-connected and re-connected in a tortuous process. "
I object to being called a lomg-haired civvy, lol, and they were not hard wired they used the same connector they use today.
Ian