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Post Op Lve Vs Annual Lve

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Post Op Lve Vs Annual Lve

Old 10th Apr 2009, 12:48
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Post Op Lve Vs Annual Lve

Gents, all.

I am currently in a sandy place for a possible 9 month tour and have been informed by my unit that any leave I take post op will be deducted from the days that I carried over from last year.....that were caused by being OOA. Any other PODL that I am entitled to (over the 15 days I carried over) will be classed as PODL and not cost me annual leave. I do not have JPA or any form of admin support to dig into this and do not have access to the new leave policy document.

Is this a policy that has been slipped in through the back door to ensure the leave statistics improve, as numbers taking their full leave entitlement are quite low, or is it something that is complete Bo Lox and a local initiative to ensure my stations stats improve. If it is a step change in policy it is a good kick in the schwangers for everyone OOA who carried over leave.
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Old 10th Apr 2009, 13:30
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SLC, there was something last month. I had a quick scan before passing it on. It didn't look that good.
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Old 10th Apr 2009, 14:15
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As long as you can justify the fact that you were unable to take the leave to your boss, you shouldn't have a problem and your boss should fight it for you if he's got any kind of spine.

People in management positions have to realise that it takes time to prepare for deployments, which means you can't take leave, then you have to deploy, which means you can't take leave, and when you get back you have to go to work because someone else in the office is deploying, which means you can't take leave.

Justification is the key, along with a formal letter if necessary. It made things all okay for me after 6 months in Kosovo, along with an underlying threat to go public... now that the public are more on our side than they were 10 years ago, it might make it easier again.

Good luck.
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Old 10th Apr 2009, 15:23
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The basics of the new leave policy are simple. 38 days but no additional bank holidays. The guys & gals working a 7 day week remain disadvantaged with regard to 'free' weekends, and TOIL or not-required-for-duty days remain outside the scope of JPA. A step in the right direction for the RAF of today but not optimised for total efficiency just yet. I guess a blanket 104 additional days and no free weekends would get them a step nearer to a fair package.

ie 142 days for all, and all days off [inc weekends] to be accounted for by a leave pass. Post Op Lve is a minefield and after decades of 1 day for every weekend worked it now appears that 1 day for 9 is the norm. This is not fair but is influenced by many not being able to get* to present leave entitlement in the bag.

*Of course in the case of some it is poor personal management, but reaching a flameproof coat because I know there are thousands who do get leave in through no fault of their own.
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Old 10th Apr 2009, 16:20
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Originally Posted by Tiger_mate View Post
*Of course in the case of some it is poor personal management, but reaching a flameproof coat because I know there are thousands who do get leave in through no fault of their own.
Or simply poor management. I know someone who seems to acquire leave at the rate on one day or more per day worked

Of course if you don't put leave in to JPA ..................
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Old 10th Apr 2009, 16:24
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I am just about to complete a lengthy tour in the sand. I took the precaution of submitting Gen App to PSF at my home unit to carry over annual leave before I deployed knowing that I would be out here when the new leave year started. I chased it up when I was on RnR. I just checked JPA and it seems that I have had all my leave from last year (more than 15 days) carried over and, what with PODL and the new lot of 38 days, I can go leave for just about the rest of the year !!

If you ask the question and justify the reason, people do listen - at least it worked for me
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Old 10th Apr 2009, 16:59
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I understand the 38 day thing. The problem is that flt cdrs/line managers have effectively been removed from the JPA process (or have I missed something?). I do wonder how much leave is being taken without authority because people don't get round to filling in JPA (or don't have access).

The thing I saw the other day was about losing a proportion of the 15-day carry-over if you had failed to take enough of it at the point of posting. Theory goes that if posted after 6 months, you should have taken 7-8 days of the carry-over from the previous year, or you lose it on posting, but I don't see how it's measured (as distinct from ILA) and my HR people can't tell me.

What is certain is that you will never get leave back, and there is absolutely no possibility of it being 'bought back' from you, so take it whenever you can or expect to lose it.

I do wonder, for shift workers and those who work irregular patterns in particular, whether the whole thing isn't the wrong way round. The RAF could tell you which days it wants you to work up to a maximum of 223, and everything else is yours! Just how much stuff wouldn't get done?

STH
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Old 10th Apr 2009, 18:17
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STH - has that pro-rata loss of leave been formalised (ie the mechanics of it not that it will happen)? When we asked our Adminers, they just looked blank and shrugged their shoulders, reckoned nobody knew how that was going to be implemented. Just need to make sure I get posted before Apr 10 when I believe it kicks in.

As for justifying your application, it seems to have worked for me too - I now have 65 days leave for the coming leave year. Of course, I have sod all chance of taking it, but hey, I guess that will just be down to my poor personal management eh.
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Old 10th Apr 2009, 18:56
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On my last posting, JPA was temp unaware of my ILA/entitlement, and then subsequently got the totals wrong. When I presented what I thought was the correct figure to the SAC in PSF she replied - " no problem, I will adjust it for you now".

Bottom line, if there are mistakes or you think you have been short-changed then speak with PSF. At your level probably OC PSF and explain the situation and see what happens - I am sure a man with your charm would be able to swing it............

Take it easy and keep the Gloch close
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Old 10th Apr 2009, 19:07
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STH - has that pro-rata loss of leave been formalised (ie the mechanics of it not that it will happen)?
I don't think so. If you are at the 6-mth point and you haven't taken 8 days of leave (and you aren't on an op det), then I guess things really are bad. However, I haven't yet seen how it is supposed to work on JPA. I suspect the follow-on leave entitlement is just added to the 38 basic, so I can't imagine how they distinguish between Initial ILA and the added 15 days. Perhaps someone on here can tell us?

The other thing is that I have some doubts about the legality of what is being brought in. Don't get me wrong, I am sure the lawyers have been involved and assured our lords and masters that the cunning plan is entirely legal. However, that doesn't make it right and it would be interesting if someone were to challenge the MOD in court. LEAVE IS AN ENTITLEMENT, and I can't see how telling you you have 53 days leave then taking, say, 10 of it away, on top of a posting can possibly be justified from a legal perspective.

STH
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Old 10th Apr 2009, 19:35
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Originally Posted by SirToppamHat View Post
LEAVE IS AN ENTITLEMENT, and I can't see how telling you you have 53 days leave then taking, say, 10 of it away, on top of a posting can possibly be justified from a legal perspective.

STH
That little word reminds me.

I have an idea that leave is now officially divided between entitlement and something else.
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Old 14th Apr 2009, 10:17
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Under the UK Working Time Regulations we have a right to 28 days leave each year. IBN 04/09 explains the remaining 10 days are an "allowance". Other key points from the IBN:
  • All carried forward leave is to be taken, against the losing unit, or will be lost for all personnel on posting from 1 Apr 10.
  • All carried forward leave is to be taken no later than the 3 year point; dates will be ‘before 1 Apr 12’, ‘before 1 Apr 15’ etc.
  • Automatic carry forward of leave will remain at 15 days, other than at the three year points (1 Apr 12, 1 Apr 15…). Individuals may apply to their CO to carry forward leave in exceptional circumstances iaw extant regulations
  • Nothing changes in relation to Post Operational Leave (POL) and Sea-Goers Leave (SGL), which should be taken as soon as possible on return to the unit; it does not count towards the 28 days minimum.
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 13:58
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Transferable PODL

Just an idea.

There must be a significant number of married servicemen where one partner or the other does an Op deployment and earns a bucket of leave. Their spouse OTOH has only the standard allowance so the PODL may well be taken while the spouse is at work.

Now this might be fine for some as they can get valuable 1-1 with the children or get on with home DIY. There will be others where this extra leave is just a sop where they can't actually do anything.

What about having transferable PODL? Say 50% of the PODL to be transfered to a serving spouse post deployment. Or perhaps 30% transfered before deployment and 35% after or for the mid-tour leave ? This would increase harmonisation at no overall cost to the Service
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 16:27
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I doubt you'd be able to transfer any leave before the Deployment ends. You may get out there for a week, break your leg and get sent straight back - you wouldn't be entitled to POTL then, but you'd have already transferred / taken it.
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 18:28
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onlywatching, but in principle?
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 18:53
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'There will be others where this extra leave is just a sop where they can't actually do anything.'


PODL is part of the decompression process as well as additional lve for time worked whilst away, and it should be taken immediately on return from ops. Only in exceptional circumstances should it be delayed: Flt/Trp/Sec Cmdr would be very poorly placed if he started to mess with it, as would the individual.
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 20:39
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CBTL, have you answered the question?

Would shared leave aid the decompression process?

Consider there are 3 people.

One is single and hopefully will spend the PODL with friends and family.

Another has a civilian spouse who may or may not work. In the latter case decompression may take place as a couple.

Finally we have the married serviceman. The PODL dcompression may well be wasted if all they have it the 4 walls of a quarter to stare at while their spouse continues to work. Worse, that spouse may then go OOA not long afterwards.

What of the principle? Would some people want it?
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