F3 terminated
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Precisely, even if the force numbers are cut the assets committed to conduct QRA (I) will be exactly the same.
G8D
G8D
So if two squadrons at Coningsby and a dozen aircraft at Leuchars are all you need now, you won't be needing any more of those brand new Typhoons at Leuchars will you? So you'd better start looking for someone else for Gordon to sell them to hadn't you?
Or so a beancounter would tell you.
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Mick,
In danger of 2 + 2 = 6.322992, I fear.
The Leuchars Typhoon Sqns - which, if I understand the public pronouncements correctly, will in due course consist of 6(F), 43(F) and 111(F) - will be multi-role Sqns, with the ability to stand QRA - much like Coningsby. So unless you want to move three Typhoon Sqns elsewhere and either use Leuchars as QRA only, or move QRA(I) somewhere else, then I'd still expect these three Sqns to go to Leu.
Which is great, because Leu is a nice base in a lovely spot!
(St A's and Edinburgh or halfway between Sleaford and Skegness.... 
let me think about that...)
So, no danger of Typhoon not going to Fife IMHO.
S41
In danger of 2 + 2 = 6.322992, I fear.
The Leuchars Typhoon Sqns - which, if I understand the public pronouncements correctly, will in due course consist of 6(F), 43(F) and 111(F) - will be multi-role Sqns, with the ability to stand QRA - much like Coningsby. So unless you want to move three Typhoon Sqns elsewhere and either use Leuchars as QRA only, or move QRA(I) somewhere else, then I'd still expect these three Sqns to go to Leu.
Which is great, because Leu is a nice base in a lovely spot!
(St A's and Edinburgh or halfway between Sleaford and Skegness.... let me think about that...)So, no danger of Typhoon not going to Fife IMHO.
S41
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Mick. QRA is only one of the duties of the Air Defence world. The other is to be capable of conducting operations at home and globally should the need arise. Beancounters have no understanding of the severe consequences for a country (and for their own pink little bodies) should a large scale operation requiring Air Defence kick off with too few fighters to make a difference. Unlikely, but always possible, as history will attest to. Typhoons at Leuchars can only be a good thing.
It was always said that five squadrons was the bare minimum required to sustain Northern and Southern QRA and the Falklands for a sustained period, unless QRA alone was all that those squadrons were going to do.
During the Cold War, QRA required more than that - 5, 11, 23, 25, 29, 56, 74, 43, 111, and that wasn't sufficient to mop up massed waves of enemy bombers - just to counter a medium scale effort by the opposition in the transition to all out catastrophe.
With three F3 Squadrons (25, 43 and 111) and two Typhoon units (3 and 11) there was barely capacity to sustain both Northern and Southern QRA, and the Falklands commitment, and since the disbandment of 25 (without replacement) the Typhoon force has been unable to work up and maintain A-G currency for all of its frontline crews. If you want the Typhoon force to be multi-role, then you need the seven squadrons originally budgeted for. If you're not serious about that, or if you are prepared to juggle deployed AD capability and multi-role capability, then five squadrons might suffice.
We can argue all day about five or seven squadrons, but two squadrons and 12 F.Mk 3s surely looks like a recipe for pip-squeaking pain?
It does to me.
In any sane world, the withdrawal of the remaining F3 units would be delayed until the operational declaration of Typhoon squadrons 4 and 5, to avoid any gap in this vital capability area.
During the Cold War, QRA required more than that - 5, 11, 23, 25, 29, 56, 74, 43, 111, and that wasn't sufficient to mop up massed waves of enemy bombers - just to counter a medium scale effort by the opposition in the transition to all out catastrophe.
With three F3 Squadrons (25, 43 and 111) and two Typhoon units (3 and 11) there was barely capacity to sustain both Northern and Southern QRA, and the Falklands commitment, and since the disbandment of 25 (without replacement) the Typhoon force has been unable to work up and maintain A-G currency for all of its frontline crews. If you want the Typhoon force to be multi-role, then you need the seven squadrons originally budgeted for. If you're not serious about that, or if you are prepared to juggle deployed AD capability and multi-role capability, then five squadrons might suffice.
We can argue all day about five or seven squadrons, but two squadrons and 12 F.Mk 3s surely looks like a recipe for pip-squeaking pain?
It does to me.
In any sane world, the withdrawal of the remaining F3 units would be delayed until the operational declaration of Typhoon squadrons 4 and 5, to avoid any gap in this vital capability area.
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The ex-backseaters can always replace the ego manic fighter controllers (sorry Air battle space managers) at least the crews will have someone to talk to that actually knows what daylight is. As I was recently informed they are the third man in the cockpit!
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On a serious note I know a few have alreay made the jump and with the figures for Leuchars now in the press to support the briefings of last week I know a few mates in the mess talking about that route. The knock-on for recruitment of ABMs will be an issue and I doubt they will want to lose the flying pay if they are not guaranteeded the E-3 jobs and that will affect the ABMs already in the branch. Ming Campbell isn't happy either!
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As someone who has witnessed the goings-on at Waddington in the last few years, any F3 Nav who
a. Passes the OCU
and
b. Sticks around for longer than 2 years
would be very welcome by the E3 community.
The success rate so far hasn't been good!
a. Passes the OCU
and
b. Sticks around for longer than 2 years
would be very welcome by the E3 community.
The success rate so far hasn't been good!
The Courier: Taking you to the heart of Tayside and Fife
'Tornado force to be cut sooner
REDUCTION OF the Tornado F3 force ahead of the arrival of the Eurofighter Typhoon at RAF Leuchars is to take place earlier than originally planned.
The Ministry of Defence confirmed yesterday that from September it will reduce the number of F3 fighter jets in operation at Leuchars to 12 to “rebalance” assets.
The news of the early drawdown of the aircraft, which is to be removed from service in March 2011, was met with surprise among personnel at the station which has around 30 Tornado F3s.
The first of three Typhoon squadrons to be stationed at Leuchars will not arrive until September next year.
While the F3 force reduction will not result in redundancies, an MoD spokesman said it may result in an unspecified number of personnel being redeployed or assigned to other roles on the base.
The spokesman said the impact of the decision on the two Leuchars-based squadrons—43 (Fighter) and 111 (Fighter)—which fly the aircraft was yet to be determined.
But he gave assurance that the station would continue to provide quick reaction alert to defend northern UK airspace.
The spokesman said it had been decided that the commitments of the Tornado F3 force could be achieved with only a dozen aircraft from the autumn.
He said, “The decision was taken in order to rebalance our assets to ensure we continue to meet all our current commitments across all forces.”
It is still intended the aircraft will remain in service to March 2011, he said, and plans for the introduction of three Typhoon squadrons to Leuchars are unchanged.
He said, “There will be no change to the air defence of the United Kingdom.
“The Tornado F3 will continue to fly from RAF Leuchars and will maintain the northern quick reaction alert commitment at that station until its planned out-of-service date in 2011.”
The spokesman also said that the MoD was studying how the force reduction would be managed against the Tornado F3 drawdown plan.
He added, “Some personnel may be redeployed to support other force elements or reassigned on the station to prepare for the arrival of the Typhoon.”
The first Typhoon squadron to arrive will be 6 Squadron, six months before the final F3 flies out.
The creation of three Typhoon squadrons at Leuchars will guarantee the future of the base for 40 years and bring massive investment to north-east Fife.
The station will be the optimal second main operating base for the Typhoon, which is a single-seat multi-role combat aircraft.'
'Tornado force to be cut sooner
REDUCTION OF the Tornado F3 force ahead of the arrival of the Eurofighter Typhoon at RAF Leuchars is to take place earlier than originally planned.
The Ministry of Defence confirmed yesterday that from September it will reduce the number of F3 fighter jets in operation at Leuchars to 12 to “rebalance” assets.
The news of the early drawdown of the aircraft, which is to be removed from service in March 2011, was met with surprise among personnel at the station which has around 30 Tornado F3s.
The first of three Typhoon squadrons to be stationed at Leuchars will not arrive until September next year.
While the F3 force reduction will not result in redundancies, an MoD spokesman said it may result in an unspecified number of personnel being redeployed or assigned to other roles on the base.
The spokesman said the impact of the decision on the two Leuchars-based squadrons—43 (Fighter) and 111 (Fighter)—which fly the aircraft was yet to be determined.
But he gave assurance that the station would continue to provide quick reaction alert to defend northern UK airspace.
The spokesman said it had been decided that the commitments of the Tornado F3 force could be achieved with only a dozen aircraft from the autumn.
He said, “The decision was taken in order to rebalance our assets to ensure we continue to meet all our current commitments across all forces.”
It is still intended the aircraft will remain in service to March 2011, he said, and plans for the introduction of three Typhoon squadrons to Leuchars are unchanged.
He said, “There will be no change to the air defence of the United Kingdom.
“The Tornado F3 will continue to fly from RAF Leuchars and will maintain the northern quick reaction alert commitment at that station until its planned out-of-service date in 2011.”
The spokesman also said that the MoD was studying how the force reduction would be managed against the Tornado F3 drawdown plan.
He added, “Some personnel may be redeployed to support other force elements or reassigned on the station to prepare for the arrival of the Typhoon.”
The first Typhoon squadron to arrive will be 6 Squadron, six months before the final F3 flies out.
The creation of three Typhoon squadrons at Leuchars will guarantee the future of the base for 40 years and bring massive investment to north-east Fife.
The station will be the optimal second main operating base for the Typhoon, which is a single-seat multi-role combat aircraft.'
As someone who has witnessed the goings-on at Waddington in the last few years, any F3 Nav who
a. Passes the OCU
and
b. Sticks around for longer than 2 years
would be very welcome by the E3 community.
The success rate so far hasn't been good!
a. Passes the OCU
and
b. Sticks around for longer than 2 years
would be very welcome by the E3 community.
The success rate so far hasn't been good!
Personally, 'flares'...
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“There will be no change to the air defence of the United Kingdom.
If neither sqn is currently contributing to the air defence of UK why keep them going 'till the Autumn?
Maybe Mr McBride wrote that!
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Jako, I'll let you work out the irony your post 
(hint JMC)
Sad days indeed.
(hint JMC)Sad days indeed.
Last edited by glad rag; 13th Apr 2009 at 19:55. Reason: Add hint for those hard of thinking!
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With regards to why they are not going earlier it boils down to the cost of cancelling the airshow and if the Sqns go earlier they will not be able to use their manpower etc and the cancellation costs are enough to dent even the Air Officer Scotlands budget. It all boils down to money one way or another.
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This is in today's Sun
Jet axe blows hole in defence
BRITAIN’S air defences will be left with a gaping hole when two RAF Tornado squadrons are axed a year early.
The premature shutdown of the historic 43 and 111 Squadrons will leave the UK with just EIGHT jets ready to be scrambled to deal with terrorist threats.
And the gap in our defences will not be covered until enough pilots are trained to fly the new Typhoon jet.
The two squadrons, which fly Tornado F3s out of RAF Leuchars in Scotland, were due to stand down in late 2010.
But crews have been told the move is being brought forward to September this year to save millions of pounds.
The move cuts the number of fighters on standby from 25 to 12.
But four of the 12 surviving Tornados will be undergoing maintenance at any time — leaving eight.
The Typhoon, with greater thrust and altitude capability, is taking over the Tornado’s Quick Reaction Alert duties — which involve scrambling at a moment’s notice to tackle terror threats such as hijacked jets.
The RAF has ordered 183 Typhoons at £138 million each.
But so far just 49 have been delivered to RAF Coningsby, Lincs, and most are not yet operational.
The Typhoon is also taking over the role of ground-attack Jaguar jets, and may be needed in Afghanistan.
The first dedicated air defence squadron with Typhoons will not be operational until late 2010.
Senior defence sources confirmed the squadrons are being axed early, but insisted the role of the Tornado F3 force can be achieved with just 12 jets from September.
All Tornados will be replaced by Typhoons by 2011.
An MoD spokesman said: “There will be no change to the air defence of the UK.
“The Tornado F3 will continue to fly from RAF Leuchars and maintain the Northern Quick Reaction Alert commitment until its planned out of service date in 2011.”
BRITAIN’S air defences will be left with a gaping hole when two RAF Tornado squadrons are axed a year early.
The premature shutdown of the historic 43 and 111 Squadrons will leave the UK with just EIGHT jets ready to be scrambled to deal with terrorist threats.
And the gap in our defences will not be covered until enough pilots are trained to fly the new Typhoon jet.
The two squadrons, which fly Tornado F3s out of RAF Leuchars in Scotland, were due to stand down in late 2010.
But crews have been told the move is being brought forward to September this year to save millions of pounds.
The move cuts the number of fighters on standby from 25 to 12.
But four of the 12 surviving Tornados will be undergoing maintenance at any time — leaving eight.
The Typhoon, with greater thrust and altitude capability, is taking over the Tornado’s Quick Reaction Alert duties — which involve scrambling at a moment’s notice to tackle terror threats such as hijacked jets.
The RAF has ordered 183 Typhoons at £138 million each.
But so far just 49 have been delivered to RAF Coningsby, Lincs, and most are not yet operational.
The Typhoon is also taking over the role of ground-attack Jaguar jets, and may be needed in Afghanistan.
The first dedicated air defence squadron with Typhoons will not be operational until late 2010.
Senior defence sources confirmed the squadrons are being axed early, but insisted the role of the Tornado F3 force can be achieved with just 12 jets from September.
All Tornados will be replaced by Typhoons by 2011.
An MoD spokesman said: “There will be no change to the air defence of the UK.
“The Tornado F3 will continue to fly from RAF Leuchars and maintain the Northern Quick Reaction Alert commitment until its planned out of service date in 2011.”
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The RAF has ordered 183 Typhoons at £138 million each
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HAR84
One can only assume that your fishing with this misinformation.
Air Officer Scotland does not have a budget for the airshow. It is funded from ticket prices, sponsorship and the sale of commercial stands. Alongside the other airshows, it even has to pay for MOD participating RAF aircraft.
With regards to why they are not going earlier it boils down to the cost of cancelling the airshow and if the Sqns go earlier they will not be able to use their manpower etc and the cancellation costs are enough to dent even the Air Officer Scotlands budget. It all boils down to money one way or another.
One can only assume that your fishing with this misinformation.
Air Officer Scotland does not have a budget for the airshow. It is funded from ticket prices, sponsorship and the sale of commercial stands. Alongside the other airshows, it even has to pay for MOD participating RAF aircraft.