Somali pirates hijack ship; 20 Americans aboard
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Piracy is an act of war, though not declared or practised by a sovereign nation. What they do is a war crime. Because of our "civilised" response to these life threatening acts of piracy they have us by the goolies.
The Somali piratism is a multi-million dollar growth industry and will thrive and prosper until it can be made not-worthwhile. That requires brave, concerted international policy decisions and firm action.
Resistance by targeted vessels should be promoted. That includes returning fire when fired upon.
Pirates detected at sea should be arrested and, if they resist, should be neutralised with force as necessary. They must not be permitted to get away with it. If some die in the process, that is their choice. Those captured alive should be tried by an international court and locked up. The financial assets of those behind the piracy should be identified and neutralised.
The more we pussy-foot around worrying about the human rights of these criminals and are fearful of injury to innocents caught up in it, the more we demonstrate our weakness and encourage their activities.
What an unedifying and depressing spectacle it is to watch an unpowered lifeboat with four pirates, so arrogant and confident of our weakness that they can thumb their noses at the whole world, not just the US. Is that acceptable? Not to me it aint.
If bold action is taken, regrettably some innocents will suffer in the short term and some may even die. However, what is the alternative? This is war. Colateral damage must be minimised but without it victory in the end cannot be achieved and more lives saved. For the sake of eventual peace let us have the guts to fight back.
The Somali piratism is a multi-million dollar growth industry and will thrive and prosper until it can be made not-worthwhile. That requires brave, concerted international policy decisions and firm action.
Resistance by targeted vessels should be promoted. That includes returning fire when fired upon.
Pirates detected at sea should be arrested and, if they resist, should be neutralised with force as necessary. They must not be permitted to get away with it. If some die in the process, that is their choice. Those captured alive should be tried by an international court and locked up. The financial assets of those behind the piracy should be identified and neutralised.
The more we pussy-foot around worrying about the human rights of these criminals and are fearful of injury to innocents caught up in it, the more we demonstrate our weakness and encourage their activities.
What an unedifying and depressing spectacle it is to watch an unpowered lifeboat with four pirates, so arrogant and confident of our weakness that they can thumb their noses at the whole world, not just the US. Is that acceptable? Not to me it aint.
If bold action is taken, regrettably some innocents will suffer in the short term and some may even die. However, what is the alternative? This is war. Colateral damage must be minimised but without it victory in the end cannot be achieved and more lives saved. For the sake of eventual peace let us have the guts to fight back.
Much of what you say I agree with & would support - but the collateral damage bit - do you mind offering up some of your loved ones first & if so - which ones?
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Load Toad,
No, of course I would not "OFFER UP" my loved ones. What is the logic behind your question?
In respect of the French action:
A spokesman for the French foreign ministry said Florent Lemacon and his wife Chloe were "repeatedly warned" not to travel through the area.
"It is difficult to understand why these warnings were not heeded," spokesman Eric Chevallier said.
Well done the French.
No, of course I would not "OFFER UP" my loved ones. What is the logic behind your question?
In respect of the French action:
A spokesman for the French foreign ministry said Florent Lemacon and his wife Chloe were "repeatedly warned" not to travel through the area.
"It is difficult to understand why these warnings were not heeded," spokesman Eric Chevallier said.
Well done the French.
The logic behind the question is collateral damage is acceptable - but not yours.
As for the French yacht - OK they were warned maybe the pirates will now communicate to other pirates and no French flagged vessels will be harmed. Might happen. Certainly does sound the French hostages were eccentric to say the least.
The fact that many countries now have naval vessels in the area, the fact that the US and other countries prefers to start by trying to negotiate, the fact that the pirates still manage to carry out their crimes, that fact that none are so far 'bought to justice' to me indicates a situation a little more complicated than go kill a few pirates. Wasn't their recently the case where the Indian navy attacked a pirate vessel that turned out to be a Thai fishing vessel that had hijacked? The Thai crew becoming collateral damage.
If there is a solution to this it isn't going to be different policies by different countries with different degrees of negotiation or action.
If bold action is taken, regrettably some innocents will suffer in the short term and some may even die.
The fact that many countries now have naval vessels in the area, the fact that the US and other countries prefers to start by trying to negotiate, the fact that the pirates still manage to carry out their crimes, that fact that none are so far 'bought to justice' to me indicates a situation a little more complicated than go kill a few pirates. Wasn't their recently the case where the Indian navy attacked a pirate vessel that turned out to be a Thai fishing vessel that had hijacked? The Thai crew becoming collateral damage.
If there is a solution to this it isn't going to be different policies by different countries with different degrees of negotiation or action.
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I wonder if history will repeat itself.
First Barbary War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
'From the Halls of Montezuma, to the Shores of Tripoli.....' US Marine Hymn
First Barbary War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
'From the Halls of Montezuma, to the Shores of Tripoli.....' US Marine Hymn
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LT
Your logic is faulty, both in your question and in the reasoning within your post.
There is a world of difference between "offering" and "accepting". My wife and I both served in the forces and my son is still serving, so my family have shown they have the guts and are willing to put themselves in harms way for the greater good.
We would prefer not to have to put ourselves in harms way to defend idiots, however.
Your logic is faulty, both in your question and in the reasoning within your post.
There is a world of difference between "offering" and "accepting". My wife and I both served in the forces and my son is still serving, so my family have shown they have the guts and are willing to put themselves in harms way for the greater good.
We would prefer not to have to put ourselves in harms way to defend idiots, however.
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Really annoyed -
I guess you don't feel the P3C Orion on station counts eh?
Now we are really straying from the name of this forum. What has this got to do with Military Aviation? Nothing.
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@ really annoyed
A dubious link at best. This has bugger all to with Military Aviation and should be moved to Jet Blast.
A military surveillance plane in ops against the pirates has bugger all to do with mil aviation??
Get off the grass man.
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As mil aviators, we are required to intercept and escort Blackjacks, Bears et al from our airspace BEFORE they do anything nasty, and send them on their way, what do the navy do....? Apparently I am missing something.
....so there is the mil aviation piece if it is lacking.
....so there is the mil aviation piece if it is lacking.
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It's extremely tempting to think in terms of putting a decent gun ( 40mm should do ? ) & a team of Marines or similar on each ship going to the area, and I still think it should be so, & know the mounting snags etc; sod laws preventing armament of Merchant ships.
But I can think of one snag straight away; it behoves every ship's master to assist vessels in distress, and by the time one found out if they were bad guys posing or not they'd be awfully close, re. RPG's.
Also, note, the lot that attacked the Alabama had SatComms & knew how to handle a ship - lowering a lifeboat is not something a newbie could do.
That coupled with the more recent co-ordinated attack & capture of the U.S. Registered tug, point to Al Queda or someone doing a good job of impersonating them !
But I can think of one snag straight away; it behoves every ship's master to assist vessels in distress, and by the time one found out if they were bad guys posing or not they'd be awfully close, re. RPG's.
Also, note, the lot that attacked the Alabama had SatComms & knew how to handle a ship - lowering a lifeboat is not something a newbie could do.
That coupled with the more recent co-ordinated attack & capture of the U.S. Registered tug, point to Al Queda or someone doing a good job of impersonating them !
In the past, it seems that the Russians weren't quite so squeamish about an 'eye for an eye' approach to justice....
In 1980s Beirut, Hezbollah kidnapped 4 Soviet diplomats and executed one of them. The KGB then snatched a relative of a Hezbollah leader, castrated him, stuffed his testicles in his mouth, shot him in the head and sent the body back to Hezbollah. The KGB included a message that other members of the Party of God would die in a similar manner if the three Soviets were not released.
Hezbollah promptly freed the remaining Soviet diplomats.
Crude, violent - but effective.
In 1980s Beirut, Hezbollah kidnapped 4 Soviet diplomats and executed one of them. The KGB then snatched a relative of a Hezbollah leader, castrated him, stuffed his testicles in his mouth, shot him in the head and sent the body back to Hezbollah. The KGB included a message that other members of the Party of God would die in a similar manner if the three Soviets were not released.
Hezbollah promptly freed the remaining Soviet diplomats.
Crude, violent - but effective.
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Beagle,
The way the Russians don't mess about with ANY niceties, ( I somehow doubt ' Hearts & Minds ' is one of their motto's, effective though it sometimes is ) - is exactly what worries me re. why are we bothering in Afghanistan when even the Soviets didn't hack it ...?
Back to the Somali piracy, either I'm missing the news at each moment it's mentioned, or things are being suppressed re. the captured tug, which would be understandable.
If any more aviation requirement seems missing re. the 4 chaps with Captain Phillips ( hope that's correct ) hostage, as has been complained, well the U.S. are kindly rectifying that.
They obviously read Pprune as what sounds by the description I heard like a Marines Assault Carrier, with Harriers, Helo's and hundreds of very p'd off Marines is heading their way...
It seems through the garbled reports that the 'pirates' - terrorists - have wheeled out their HQ ship; now, I hope to God we get the Captain back safe, but such a tempting target can't be ignored now or in the near future; I don't think I'd underwrite the insurance on that one !
The way the Russians don't mess about with ANY niceties, ( I somehow doubt ' Hearts & Minds ' is one of their motto's, effective though it sometimes is ) - is exactly what worries me re. why are we bothering in Afghanistan when even the Soviets didn't hack it ...?
Back to the Somali piracy, either I'm missing the news at each moment it's mentioned, or things are being suppressed re. the captured tug, which would be understandable.
If any more aviation requirement seems missing re. the 4 chaps with Captain Phillips ( hope that's correct ) hostage, as has been complained, well the U.S. are kindly rectifying that.
They obviously read Pprune as what sounds by the description I heard like a Marines Assault Carrier, with Harriers, Helo's and hundreds of very p'd off Marines is heading their way...
It seems through the garbled reports that the 'pirates' - terrorists - have wheeled out their HQ ship; now, I hope to God we get the Captain back safe, but such a tempting target can't be ignored now or in the near future; I don't think I'd underwrite the insurance on that one !
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Where is the military aviation angle? Well for starters there are the helicopters of myriad types that have been involved again and again in chasing down pirates (in several cases firing guns to halt their skiffs). There has been everything from the Allouette III to the Ka-27 (Russian and Chinese) involved in these pursuits. The Boxer (CTF-151 flagship) has two of the new UH-1Y aboard as well as Cobras etc. There are Scan Eagle drones being launched from various ships, notably the USS Mahan. The US, French and Spanish are flying MPA out of Djibouti. The 'Times' reports that the French hostage rescue involved French commandos parachuting into the sea from a C-130: Death on the high seas as pirates put to the sword - Times Online
... and so there's plenty of aviation out there, not to mention whoever it is who uses those Cat Pass KingAirs to drop the ransom money....
Some of the great ideas some PPruners and others have for dealing with the pirates could do with a bucket of facts thrown over them. Here are a few:
- Guns mounted on civil ships - how many guns and trained crew do you think a supertanker might need to provide all-aspect defence through a journey of several thousand miles? Hint - the Sirius Star had a crew of 20 and was longer than a 'Nimitz'-class CVN.
- The various navies have so far killed more sailors than the pirates. As well as the fishing boat sunk by the Indians, I believe the Russians killed some Yemeni fishermen
- The window of opportunity for catching pirates between the point they stop appearing to be fishermen and the point they are aboard a ship is around 30 minutes.
- Once they are aboard, how much "collateral damage" are some of the more gung-ho contributors here prepared to inflict in order to "kick the asses" of maybe 4 to 10 pirates? The lives of 20 sailors? A supertanker full of $200 million of crude oil that will wash up on the beaches? An LPG tanker? One full of phosphoric acid? A World Food Programme ship taking food that will go inland to the Somalis and other Africans not engaged in piracy?
Pirates are being caught on a regular basis and the wheels of justice are grinding into motion in a number of places, including France and Kenya. Unfortunately, some national rules (such as if German forces capture pirates they can only be tried in Germany if found attacking a German-flagged ship etc) need some working on. Better coordination might have stopped the Indians for example sinking a ship that everyone in the multinational forces knew was not pirate-held. But they weren't on the same net, so too bad for 15 Thai and Cambodian trawlermen (and the one who spent 6 days hanging on to a piece of wood).
This problem will only be fixed on land in Somalia, but I doubt any Western government has the stomach for that any time soon. Are any of you "blow them out of the water/bomb their ports" crowd ready to volunteer to pop into downtown Mogadishu and sort out a functioning government for them?
Didn't think so.
JT
... and so there's plenty of aviation out there, not to mention whoever it is who uses those Cat Pass KingAirs to drop the ransom money....
Some of the great ideas some PPruners and others have for dealing with the pirates could do with a bucket of facts thrown over them. Here are a few:
- Guns mounted on civil ships - how many guns and trained crew do you think a supertanker might need to provide all-aspect defence through a journey of several thousand miles? Hint - the Sirius Star had a crew of 20 and was longer than a 'Nimitz'-class CVN.
- The various navies have so far killed more sailors than the pirates. As well as the fishing boat sunk by the Indians, I believe the Russians killed some Yemeni fishermen
- The window of opportunity for catching pirates between the point they stop appearing to be fishermen and the point they are aboard a ship is around 30 minutes.
- Once they are aboard, how much "collateral damage" are some of the more gung-ho contributors here prepared to inflict in order to "kick the asses" of maybe 4 to 10 pirates? The lives of 20 sailors? A supertanker full of $200 million of crude oil that will wash up on the beaches? An LPG tanker? One full of phosphoric acid? A World Food Programme ship taking food that will go inland to the Somalis and other Africans not engaged in piracy?
Pirates are being caught on a regular basis and the wheels of justice are grinding into motion in a number of places, including France and Kenya. Unfortunately, some national rules (such as if German forces capture pirates they can only be tried in Germany if found attacking a German-flagged ship etc) need some working on. Better coordination might have stopped the Indians for example sinking a ship that everyone in the multinational forces knew was not pirate-held. But they weren't on the same net, so too bad for 15 Thai and Cambodian trawlermen (and the one who spent 6 days hanging on to a piece of wood).
This problem will only be fixed on land in Somalia, but I doubt any Western government has the stomach for that any time soon. Are any of you "blow them out of the water/bomb their ports" crowd ready to volunteer to pop into downtown Mogadishu and sort out a functioning government for them?
Didn't think so.
JT
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When I mentioned arming merchant ships I was thinking in terms of say a 40mm with a low depression angle on the stern, and shoulder launched kit / plain LMG's around elsewhere, not fitting a ship out like a CVN.
It could be done with ships operating in the area, or likely to, and teams of Marines or similar hopefully supplied by those nations now providing warships.
I agree, and stated in my post, that telling good guys from bad on approach ( I'm a yachtmaster, but then nothing would induce me to sail around there anyway ! ) will be possibly the most difficult part.
The knowledge such kit & people were on ships should soon have it's own effect, hard to see how the bad guys could escalate with better weaponry if they want to capture the ship intact !
It could be done with ships operating in the area, or likely to, and teams of Marines or similar hopefully supplied by those nations now providing warships.
I agree, and stated in my post, that telling good guys from bad on approach ( I'm a yachtmaster, but then nothing would induce me to sail around there anyway ! ) will be possibly the most difficult part.
The knowledge such kit & people were on ships should soon have it's own effect, hard to see how the bad guys could escalate with better weaponry if they want to capture the ship intact !
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Arming merchant ships.
They don't need installed cannons. They need effective deterrent armament.
I'd have thought that a brick of 4 marines per significant ship, armed with rifles, 40mm gren launcher and a Barratt sniper rifle would do it. Any small craft approaching closer than 1nm not responding to radio contact gets a warning shot. After that it gets serious.
These b*st*rds don't want a battle. They want easy pickings.
Robust stop and search by warships of suspicious vessels would produce either flight, resistance or capitulation with corresponding reponse from the warship. Search would show that fishermen don't go out with RPGs and AKs.
This is war.
They don't need installed cannons. They need effective deterrent armament.
I'd have thought that a brick of 4 marines per significant ship, armed with rifles, 40mm gren launcher and a Barratt sniper rifle would do it. Any small craft approaching closer than 1nm not responding to radio contact gets a warning shot. After that it gets serious.
These b*st*rds don't want a battle. They want easy pickings.
Robust stop and search by warships of suspicious vessels would produce either flight, resistance or capitulation with corresponding reponse from the warship. Search would show that fishermen don't go out with RPGs and AKs.
This is war.
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I agree, this IS war.
2 little points to consider; just after the Falklands, BAe tried hard to promote the SCADS - Shipborne Containerised Air Defence System, whereby with some forward planning a container ship could be fitted out as a poor man's carrier ( a lot more operational than Atlantic Conveyor, with packaged comms & maybe defensive aids ).
It would certainly put the willies up these characters if they tried to latch onto a container ship, to find a Harrier shooting off to greet them !
Pity it would have to be rockets, if British, but I expect they'd make the right impression...
More realistically, it seems to me ( armchair super-tactician ) that if ships with dangerous cargoes, gas etc, really have to pass through, they simply must have a Naval escort or even convoy system; a short term solution while the idiots are sorted out one way or another and convinced not to be naughty.
2 little points to consider; just after the Falklands, BAe tried hard to promote the SCADS - Shipborne Containerised Air Defence System, whereby with some forward planning a container ship could be fitted out as a poor man's carrier ( a lot more operational than Atlantic Conveyor, with packaged comms & maybe defensive aids ).
It would certainly put the willies up these characters if they tried to latch onto a container ship, to find a Harrier shooting off to greet them !
Pity it would have to be rockets, if British, but I expect they'd make the right impression...
More realistically, it seems to me ( armchair super-tactician ) that if ships with dangerous cargoes, gas etc, really have to pass through, they simply must have a Naval escort or even convoy system; a short term solution while the idiots are sorted out one way or another and convinced not to be naughty.
Cunning Artificer
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In the long history of piracy, the only method that has ever succeeded against pirates has been to hunt them down and kill them. We need a total exclusion zone along the Somali coast at the 20 mile limit, with any Somali vessel venturing outside their territorial waters without specific prior notification being subject to sinking on sight. Who would patrol the exclusion zone? Any and every nation that has vessels sailing in the area - that is to say, any nation with a coastline of its own.
What is this to do with military aviation? Well, FEAF mounted highly successful anti-piracy patrols in SE Asia for decades. Now that those patrols have stopped, the pirates are back at full strength in the Malacca Straights and the South China Sea. The problem isn't confined to Somalia.
What is this to do with military aviation? Well, FEAF mounted highly successful anti-piracy patrols in SE Asia for decades. Now that those patrols have stopped, the pirates are back at full strength in the Malacca Straights and the South China Sea. The problem isn't confined to Somalia.
with any Somali vessel venturing outside their territorial waters without specific prior notification
The Somali coastguard / government / navy perhaps - you know - the ones that don't actually exist? The UN? How do they notify? How is it recorded? How is it checked & verified?
As much as it sounds nice to go bomb some pirates you aren't thinking through how complex that is and how unappealing the 'collateral damage' (innocent human deaths) that would occur in an area which is in chaos with no functioning government.
And I guess you'll soon moan if the prices of your commodities go up too.