Naval Aviators
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Not the only thing us Brits did for the US Navy. We also introduced them to the angled flight deck, the steam catapult and the mirror landing system.
They also loved FR's probe and drogue and Martin Bakers seat!
They also loved FR's probe and drogue and Martin Bakers seat!
Wow what a refreshing subject! What I been saying all along...except take the above article with a pinch of salt without deviating from facts and the truth..a not unimportant contribution to USN increase of warfighting ability in the air but [the brit FAA exchange contingent was] perhaps one of a fairly large number of drivers that led to the establishment of Topgun (see Ault Report). Much anticipated read!
Oh and seems Sharkey Ward was right all along! [Say what you want about him and I guess his in your face style did not endear him to many but I guess he may just not have been the BS'er that some would have us believe...just my feeling...when he talked about the AWI course (a "product" of which he was as well) etc in his book
Oh and seems Sharkey Ward was right all along! [Say what you want about him and I guess his in your face style did not endear him to many but I guess he may just not have been the BS'er that some would have us believe...just my feeling...when he talked about the AWI course (a "product" of which he was as well) etc in his book
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Loved the bit about teaching them to write notes on their kneepads for debrief - what a brilliant innovation, why didn't they think of that before!
Aggressors used tape recorders in my day and so did I.
Aggressors used tape recorders in my day and so did I.
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Originally Posted by telegraph article
When British pilots arrived at Miramar airbase in California in the early 1960s the Americans were losing a large number of dogfights in their multi-million Phantom fighters to the enemy's relatively "cheap" MiG 21s.
FAA pilots didn't go to the F-4 RAG at Miramar until 1967/68, hardly "early 1960s." That was about the time that that USN was running the Ault study and starting up Top Gun.
The fact that Lt Commander Dick Lord contributed to that effort has never been in doubt -- he's quoted in the F-4 Tactics Manual, for crying out loud.
As for the quotes suggesting that the US military needed "experienced" British pilots to teach them -- where did that experience come from? It's not like the RAF or FAA had more air combat experience than the US forces by this point.
Different point-of-view? yes.
Different training procedures & combat tactics? Most probably.
But how many jet-jet combats did the FAA get into in the Confrontation/Malaysian insurgency?
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Mid-sixties is a bit more like it. The first FAA instructors arrived at Miramar in 1964. The idea being that they were supposed to learn from the Americans all about operating the F-4. A useful added benefit, of course, was that their presence released experienced US instructors for the frontline.
The FAA always had people at VF121 and VX-4 (which is not a training organisation btw). Michael Doust (VX4 '66-68) mentions the same thing as this article. What puzzles me a bit is that Doust (LT CDR at the time) said that he was at conference trying to bring about a change in the situation (of insufficient preparation in air combat of the USN F-4 crews). He mentions a lack of an AWI-type school similar to the RN's and he also said by the way that the RAF also lacked a similar establishment. Now, about the latter I'm not sure. Weren't IWI courses run at individual OCU's? Wasn't that similar? Later these became QWI courses..so I am not sure what Doust was getting at.
As for air to air experience no the FAA did not have any air to air kills by the time Dick Lord and co appeared on the scene (apart from Pete Carmichael's kill in Korea). The USN did not have an astounding record in it either...well the FAA just didn't participate in wars, the USN had a few air to air opportunites with the F-8 community doing well relatively speaking, whereas the F-4 interceptor community needed all the dogfight experience that it could get. Having said that the FAA did take part in the '56 where it scored a very high number of "ground kills"...Help for the USN F-4 pilots was in the form of:
--a few ex-F-8 pilots
--a number of secret converts within the F-4 force
--a number of (yes) experienced RN aircrew who were mostly AWIs and who actually officially practised the art form of the dogfight (except for the F-8ers in the USN noone did much of that in their F-4 force except a small cadre of F-4 pilots from which sprung the early Topun instructors who mostly practised combat "in secret" as they were not supposed to hassle)
As for air to air experience no the FAA did not have any air to air kills by the time Dick Lord and co appeared on the scene (apart from Pete Carmichael's kill in Korea). The USN did not have an astounding record in it either...well the FAA just didn't participate in wars, the USN had a few air to air opportunites with the F-8 community doing well relatively speaking, whereas the F-4 interceptor community needed all the dogfight experience that it could get. Having said that the FAA did take part in the '56 where it scored a very high number of "ground kills"...Help for the USN F-4 pilots was in the form of:
--a few ex-F-8 pilots
--a number of secret converts within the F-4 force
--a number of (yes) experienced RN aircrew who were mostly AWIs and who actually officially practised the art form of the dogfight (except for the F-8ers in the USN noone did much of that in their F-4 force except a small cadre of F-4 pilots from which sprung the early Topun instructors who mostly practised combat "in secret" as they were not supposed to hassle)
Just arrived from that well-known on-line vendor!
After a quick dip into it, I can confirm that it is indeed an excellent read!
After a quick dip into it, I can confirm that it is indeed an excellent read!
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' Britain's last Top Guns ' ?!
I think our Falklands guys ( Navy & RAF ) such as Sharkey, Steve Thomas, Graham Tomlinson & co. might comment on that if they weren't too polite!
Also the ACMI range in the North Sea might be worth a mention, if it's still going; set up by John Farley when he was proving too useful as Manager at Dunsfold, keeping the place going when the northern BAe directors wanted to close it; thus the poor back-up now for any Harrier operators out there - including the Indian Navy & BAe having to rob gate guardians & museum pieces for parts !
The 'Have Phoenix' ( or similar ) project where the Americans had a few MiG 17's, 21's, 23's, probably 25's etc is well known - I seem to remember one unfortunate bloke ejected out of a '23 at VERY high IAS at low level, but got away with it.
The 'Agressor' fleet seems a good idea, but I hope they use more advanced aircraft than F-5's now as a fairer match.
I think our Falklands guys ( Navy & RAF ) such as Sharkey, Steve Thomas, Graham Tomlinson & co. might comment on that if they weren't too polite!
Also the ACMI range in the North Sea might be worth a mention, if it's still going; set up by John Farley when he was proving too useful as Manager at Dunsfold, keeping the place going when the northern BAe directors wanted to close it; thus the poor back-up now for any Harrier operators out there - including the Indian Navy & BAe having to rob gate guardians & museum pieces for parts !
The 'Have Phoenix' ( or similar ) project where the Americans had a few MiG 17's, 21's, 23's, probably 25's etc is well known - I seem to remember one unfortunate bloke ejected out of a '23 at VERY high IAS at low level, but got away with it.
The 'Agressor' fleet seems a good idea, but I hope they use more advanced aircraft than F-5's now as a fairer match.
Last edited by Double Zero; 3rd Apr 2009 at 09:54.
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Naval Air Station Fallon or NAS Fallon (IATA: NFL, ICAO: KNFL, FAA LID: NFL) is the United States Navy's premier air-to-air and air-to-ground training facility. It is located in the city of Fallon in western Nevada in the United States. Since 1996, it has been home to the Naval Fighter Weapons School (TOPGUN), and the surrounding area contains 84,000 acres (340 km²) of bombing and electronic warfare ranges. It is also home to the Naval Strike Air Warfare Center (NSAWC), which includes TOPGUN, the Carrier Airborne Early Warning Weapons School (TOPDOME) and the Navy Rotary Wing Weapons School. Navy SEAL Combat Search and Rescue (CSAR) training also takes place here.
NSAWC flies and maintains F/A-18 Hornets, F-16 Fighting Falcons, and MH-60S Knighthawk helicopters.
VFC-13 (USN Reserve) at NAS Fallon also acts as an aggressor squadron, flying F-5E, F-5F and F-5N Tiger IIs.
NSAWC flies and maintains F/A-18 Hornets, F-16 Fighting Falcons, and MH-60S Knighthawk helicopters.
VFC-13 (USN Reserve) at NAS Fallon also acts as an aggressor squadron, flying F-5E, F-5F and F-5N Tiger IIs.
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