Pablo Mason loses unfair dismissal case
Roger Sofarover,
When I choose to criticise someone's character (not their actions or their words) and do so by name, immediately after they've just lost their living, and if they're a fellow aviator, and as long as they're not a public figure (and so senior) that criticism 'goes with the territory', then I hope that I'll have the moral gumption to put my name to it.
(Jindabyne, I think that that's the key difference between criticising the very character of a not-very-sharp Squadron Leader and kicking the B-word, or Torpy, for example, for their actions.).
Or at least I hope that I would desist from joining a queue of people who didn't know the bloke concerned to administer a kick.
This thread is populated largely by people who have met the guy (myself included) - the other one plainly isn't, and it was that one that I objected to.
Jindy,
No mockery of anyone else intended - I have the utmost respect for foldy and threeputt, and as to me.....
Just a pretty accurate and honest assessment, I'm afraid.
When I choose to criticise someone's character (not their actions or their words) and do so by name, immediately after they've just lost their living, and if they're a fellow aviator, and as long as they're not a public figure (and so senior) that criticism 'goes with the territory', then I hope that I'll have the moral gumption to put my name to it.
(Jindabyne, I think that that's the key difference between criticising the very character of a not-very-sharp Squadron Leader and kicking the B-word, or Torpy, for example, for their actions.).
Or at least I hope that I would desist from joining a queue of people who didn't know the bloke concerned to administer a kick.
This thread is populated largely by people who have met the guy (myself included) - the other one plainly isn't, and it was that one that I objected to.
Jindy,
No mockery of anyone else intended - I have the utmost respect for foldy and threeputt, and as to me.....
Just a pretty accurate and honest assessment, I'm afraid.
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Wig-Wag - are you, perhaps, being 'a bit naive'? Thirty six years in commercial aviation, not to mention six military myself and of course rules were broken, or, more specifically, not totally adhered to, but don't forget that PB was on a final warning! He exhibited the Long Bow archers traditional salute fully aware of his precarious position and now, rightfully, I believe, will pay for it.
Many, many, many FJ pilots have been in the civil system for a very long time now and manage very well so who has the problem, PB or the other 99.999%?
Many, many, many FJ pilots have been in the civil system for a very long time now and manage very well so who has the problem, PB or the other 99.999%?
Jindabyne, I doubt whether even in his wildest dreams 'Pablo' would ever have thought that his name would be mentioned in the same breath as The Scottish Officer......
'Pablo' might have been a bit of a chump with his airline antics, but really that's about all....
'Pablo' might have been a bit of a chump with his airline antics, but really that's about all....
Last edited by BEagle; 22nd Mar 2009 at 16:52.
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agrondise or publish books about our efforts
Although PB was not too popular with some of his peers I bet his groundcrew loved him, for whatever reasons!
Wig-Wag - are you, perhaps, being 'a bit naive'?
I have seen quite a few guys fall foul of company culture just like Pablo. That includes ex FJ's and ETPS pilots who have stepped out of line. Yes, Pablo was naive. If he had wound his neck in he would still be in a job. However, I have seen worse rule breaking and risky attitudes amongst guys who are still flying. It's knowing where to draw a line.
In a major scheduled carrier I flew for an Aussie guy made a habit of pitching up for work in a tee shirt and thongs and getting changed in the corner of the crewroom in front of the fleet managers office. The management gave him a coded warining that he should wind his neck in - he did and kept his job. The guy was a 'character' and politically sharp too.
The Fleet Manager in a charter airline I flew for was ex FJ, completely non standard, swore like a trooper and had quite a reputation with the cabin crew. How he got to his position we never understood. However, despite being highly unorthodox he was politically very astute.
So, from my perch Pablo's behaviour was no worse than I saw on quite a few other occasions. His failing was being politically unaware.
Me? I just played it straight, shined my shoes and played a very straight line on SOP's. I doubt if anybody remembered much about me after I retired and that's fine by me.
We're all different and hopefully there is still place for that.
I fully concur with what, my good, friend Foldie states about the enigma that was and is Pablo the stick monkey
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Wig Wag, thanks for your comments! Very well written. Very mature and balanced. I find too many people in aviation these days are very unbalanced and full of problems. Just reading these posts you get a feel for, who is unbalanced and who you would not like to fly with. But I feel, that PM definitely did not endanger anybody. I agree, that there is far more guys, who are "politicaly correct", who could be a the danger. But the funny part is, you will never explain an unbalanced person, that they are off. It is a waste of time.
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I fly airplanes.
When I flew for the military I could do stuff: exciting stuff, good fun stuff, and extremely dodgy stuff. Stuff, nevertheless.
Stuff that worked to different rules: 60 degrees of bank, 6G, nasty ****.
Now I fly a 737.
I still do stuff.
I give people a nice ride: comfy, safe.
I get paid shed loads of money, about 3 times the average Flt Lt / Sqn Ldr.
I put up with **** from security on a daily basis.
I come home at night and Mrs TRSS is there and the reason I fly airplanes becomes clear: I don't want to be a hero, or a character or someone different. I don't want to stand out, I just want to do my job, come home, and live my life.
I fly to live: it's just a job.
PS The day the passengers notice me is the day I f8ck up royally!
When I flew for the military I could do stuff: exciting stuff, good fun stuff, and extremely dodgy stuff. Stuff, nevertheless.
Stuff that worked to different rules: 60 degrees of bank, 6G, nasty ****.
Now I fly a 737.
I still do stuff.
I give people a nice ride: comfy, safe.
I get paid shed loads of money, about 3 times the average Flt Lt / Sqn Ldr.
I put up with **** from security on a daily basis.
I come home at night and Mrs TRSS is there and the reason I fly airplanes becomes clear: I don't want to be a hero, or a character or someone different. I don't want to stand out, I just want to do my job, come home, and live my life.
I fly to live: it's just a job.
PS The day the passengers notice me is the day I f8ck up royally!
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The best and most relevant post on this thread yet!!!
Well said TRSS.
The essential part in the whole argument is, "Did Paul/Pablo Mason have the company's permission to break their rules, had he checked and obtained the OK for a departure from the SOPs?
As a commercial captain he is never expected to endanger the aircraft, (or passengers,) so, if already under a double warning, he chose to not take the rather obvious but less public route and instead flaunt himself and flaunt the rules it is difficult to find any sympathy for him.
Well said TRSS.
Gentlemen, the essential point in the whole argument is being overlooked. Did Pablo endanger the aircraft?
As a commercial captain he is never expected to endanger the aircraft, (or passengers,) so, if already under a double warning, he chose to not take the rather obvious but less public route and instead flaunt himself and flaunt the rules it is difficult to find any sympathy for him.
Last edited by parabellum; 23rd Mar 2009 at 11:56.
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Don't know the chap, but......
Parabellum says:- "The essential part in the whole argument is, "Did Paul/Pablo Mason have the company's permission to break their rules, had he checked and obtained the OK for a departure from the SOPs?
As a commercial captain he is never expected to endanger the aircraft"
This makes an assumption that breaking rules = endangering aircraft
That is often, but not always the case by any means, and certainly not realistically in this case. Famous footballer turns suicide attacker.......errr......I think not. (Oh, if only)
Also, people keep harking back to the fact that Pablo crashed a Tornado through being an arse, therefore must be a ****e pilot.
I know many pilots who have crashed through pilot error during their military careers who most would consider to be excellent pilots. Douglas Bader anyone? Conversely, I can think of many distinctly average pilots who have never crashed, myself included.
Parabellum says:- "The essential part in the whole argument is, "Did Paul/Pablo Mason have the company's permission to break their rules, had he checked and obtained the OK for a departure from the SOPs?
As a commercial captain he is never expected to endanger the aircraft"
This makes an assumption that breaking rules = endangering aircraft
That is often, but not always the case by any means, and certainly not realistically in this case. Famous footballer turns suicide attacker.......errr......I think not. (Oh, if only)
Also, people keep harking back to the fact that Pablo crashed a Tornado through being an arse, therefore must be a ****e pilot.
I know many pilots who have crashed through pilot error during their military careers who most would consider to be excellent pilots. Douglas Bader anyone? Conversely, I can think of many distinctly average pilots who have never crashed, myself included.
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TRSS
A good post in general, but you make the classic civilian pilot gloat and telling us about how much more you earn... Do you really earn £150K +?
I agree with the thrust of your statement; the two worlds of military and civil aviation are poles apart. Trying to carry the things that made you (arguably) a winner in one world into the other is a recipe for disaster.
I have many stories from civilian pilot friends who detest flying with ex-military guys as they have tarred us all with the same brush as the (few) aggressively-average fast jet mates knocking around the system. I'm sure there are ex-truckie blokes with the same "miltary is best' mindset and who are CRM nightmares.
Mind you I wouldn't want to be operating in the flexibility-required non-SOP Iraqi or Afghan military airspace with an SOP bound one-trick airline pony!
Horses for courses?
Not better, not worse, just different. It strikes me that Pablo's ego ignored this simple fact.
A good post in general, but you make the classic civilian pilot gloat and telling us about how much more you earn...
Do you really earn £150K +?I agree with the thrust of your statement; the two worlds of military and civil aviation are poles apart. Trying to carry the things that made you (arguably) a winner in one world into the other is a recipe for disaster.
I have many stories from civilian pilot friends who detest flying with ex-military guys as they have tarred us all with the same brush as the (few) aggressively-average fast jet mates knocking around the system. I'm sure there are ex-truckie blokes with the same "miltary is best' mindset and who are CRM nightmares.
Mind you I wouldn't want to be operating in the flexibility-required non-SOP Iraqi or Afghan military airspace with an SOP bound one-trick airline pony!
Horses for courses?
Not better, not worse, just different. It strikes me that Pablo's ego ignored this simple fact.
Last edited by The Equivocator; 24th Mar 2009 at 12:53. Reason: Grammar!
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Don't know him. But,
There isn't anything intrinsically unsafe about letting me onto the flight deck, I've been there many times pre-9/11.
There isn't anything intrinsically unsafe about letting a pilot airside with a Thermos flask full of tea.
But the rules -- daft as I think they are -- say it can't happen.
He was on a final warning and breached one of those rules.
End of.
There was nothing intrinsically unsafe in his decision to allow the passenger on the flight deck.
There isn't anything intrinsically unsafe about letting a pilot airside with a Thermos flask full of tea.
But the rules -- daft as I think they are -- say it can't happen.
He was on a final warning and breached one of those rules.
End of.
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Ninety year old The Equivocator pretty much has it summed up, what goes in the military doesn't necessarily go in civvy street, horses for courses. A whole lot of reasons why, not the least of which is insurance, if the commander of a civvy aircraft breaches a CAA rule/Law or SOPs, (part of the Ops Manual, a legal document), he may well have reduced the insurance cover if he didn't actually invalidate it and infringed the AOC of the company and exposed them to unnecessary risk. It simply wasn't Mason's call.
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Take action.
Or Take no action.
In the latter case they are then condoning the trangression and would be equally liable, in law, for any guilt or blame. An example of this is in fraud where the perpetrator has received a lighter sentence than others who, while aware, did nothing to prevent the fraud.
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Tourist, what do you think? For it to be company policy would imply that all airlines have taken the prudent precaution of installing hijack proof doors which can actually endanger the crew in the event of a crash.
Gosh - there's a lot of vitriol flying around here! I don't normally get involved with some of the spite and bile spouted 'round these parts - but it's a quiet afternoon so here's a view (just mine of course, and worth no more nor less than any of yours):
I'm not really going to comment on Pablo who was my TO on XV, my formation leader in GW1 (for 1 mission of course!). I was also in the a/c he was bouncing when he went in in Germany. Other than to say, when criticising people it's important to get your facts right. So:
1. Foldingwings - "Don't think he ever made it above pairs lead!" - Factually incorrect.
2. Tankertrashnav - "...unlike another Gulf War veteran I could mention who has carved out a lucrative career as a spokesman on all matters aeronautical on the dubious basis of having been shot down by the Iraqis. No names.... etc, etc" - Well, perhaps, but all I do is express an opinion in public on TV & radio - as many others love to do on these public forums. Curious that. And if you can identify any of my utterances as factually flawed, I'll be happy to correct them.
3. Foldingwings - "The guy mentioned above, by tankertrashnav, who never corrects people when they refer to him as a Tornado pilot and was responsible for being shot down (he screwed up) is of the same mould." - Factually incorrect on so many levels:
Firstly, my challenge to you is to produce one single occasion when I have not corrected an interviewer (when I have been present - I can't do it if it's pre-recorded or in print) re. the pilot/nav description so often misused in the press. I will gladly donate £100 to Combat Stress if you can find a single one.
Secondly, just for fun (and as you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time slagging off people and telling 'When I Was...' tales on pprune, it will give you something more productive to do), I challenge you to find the one single occasion when I actually did describe myself as "one of the pilots shot down in Iraq" - if you can find it, you'll know why it was imperative I said that at the time. Again, £100 to Combat Stress if you manage it.
Thirdly, if you can demonstrate the causal link you clearly know between your claim that I 'screwed up' and was subsequently 'responsible' for being shot down...you guessed it, another £100 to Combat Stress. Hint - there was a long thread about this many years ago on pprune.
If you can do none of these things, perhaps you might like to make a donation to charity...or even admit you were wrong?
4. Threeput - "One might gather from that that I don't have much of a liking for people of the ilk of Mason and Peters/Nicholl (the switch pigs f**k up monkey). Sue me if you dare you three chimps" - An interesting one this one 3put, a 1 star made the same claim a few years ago when having a go at me in the press. He was more than keen to withdraw the comment after being threatened with legal action, and the newspaper apologised. Still, I've never shied away from the fact that I could have made a switch pigs over the tgt - interestingly, the Sqn QWI later gave a very interesting chat about what might have gone wrong (not switch pigs), but as with many QWI lectures, it was a bit over my head.
3putt - as you seem to spend huge amounts of your retirement doling out bile to everyone from me to an AOC, perhaps you'd like to join in the Combat Stress challenge too? It's a very good cause.
5. Olive Oil - "Shot down, or blown up by their own slick bombs, jettissoned live close to the ground? I think we should be told" - Now that IS a new one I've not heard before! But really, the post crash research (some good pictures in Tornado Down) seemed to suggest a SAM 14 if I remember correctly. Still, in the spirit of good will, if you can even come close to justifying that claim.....yeah, you know where the £100 will go.
best wishes to all,
John
I'm not really going to comment on Pablo who was my TO on XV, my formation leader in GW1 (for 1 mission of course!). I was also in the a/c he was bouncing when he went in in Germany. Other than to say, when criticising people it's important to get your facts right. So:
1. Foldingwings - "Don't think he ever made it above pairs lead!" - Factually incorrect.
2. Tankertrashnav - "...unlike another Gulf War veteran I could mention who has carved out a lucrative career as a spokesman on all matters aeronautical on the dubious basis of having been shot down by the Iraqis. No names.... etc, etc" - Well, perhaps, but all I do is express an opinion in public on TV & radio - as many others love to do on these public forums. Curious that. And if you can identify any of my utterances as factually flawed, I'll be happy to correct them.
3. Foldingwings - "The guy mentioned above, by tankertrashnav, who never corrects people when they refer to him as a Tornado pilot and was responsible for being shot down (he screwed up) is of the same mould." - Factually incorrect on so many levels:
Firstly, my challenge to you is to produce one single occasion when I have not corrected an interviewer (when I have been present - I can't do it if it's pre-recorded or in print) re. the pilot/nav description so often misused in the press. I will gladly donate £100 to Combat Stress if you can find a single one.
Secondly, just for fun (and as you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time slagging off people and telling 'When I Was...' tales on pprune, it will give you something more productive to do), I challenge you to find the one single occasion when I actually did describe myself as "one of the pilots shot down in Iraq" - if you can find it, you'll know why it was imperative I said that at the time. Again, £100 to Combat Stress if you manage it.
Thirdly, if you can demonstrate the causal link you clearly know between your claim that I 'screwed up' and was subsequently 'responsible' for being shot down...you guessed it, another £100 to Combat Stress. Hint - there was a long thread about this many years ago on pprune.
If you can do none of these things, perhaps you might like to make a donation to charity...or even admit you were wrong?
4. Threeput - "One might gather from that that I don't have much of a liking for people of the ilk of Mason and Peters/Nicholl (the switch pigs f**k up monkey). Sue me if you dare you three chimps" - An interesting one this one 3put, a 1 star made the same claim a few years ago when having a go at me in the press. He was more than keen to withdraw the comment after being threatened with legal action, and the newspaper apologised. Still, I've never shied away from the fact that I could have made a switch pigs over the tgt - interestingly, the Sqn QWI later gave a very interesting chat about what might have gone wrong (not switch pigs), but as with many QWI lectures, it was a bit over my head.
3putt - as you seem to spend huge amounts of your retirement doling out bile to everyone from me to an AOC, perhaps you'd like to join in the Combat Stress challenge too? It's a very good cause.
5. Olive Oil - "Shot down, or blown up by their own slick bombs, jettissoned live close to the ground? I think we should be told" - Now that IS a new one I've not heard before! But really, the post crash research (some good pictures in Tornado Down) seemed to suggest a SAM 14 if I remember correctly. Still, in the spirit of good will, if you can even come close to justifying that claim.....yeah, you know where the £100 will go.
best wishes to all,
John