Collision avoidance - Fast jets vs light aircraft
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
What about Crop Sprayers?
The OP should be fine - it's Friday afternoon he's planning to fly, remember
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Northampton
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But you're not so f*cking stupid that you'd be taking photos while also acting as the handling pilot, I trust, TSR22?
And to the OP, they don't
Remember flying to L2K once, and just past Cap-Griz-Nez heading South two jet jockey's cut us up at 3,000. If I were in their shoes, I'd have definitely seen the fun in buzzing a small helpless aeroplane at 500 kts, but they didn't have to live with the resultant turb! Bruised heads all round in my little ship
Cheers, Jack
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: ...back of the drag curve
Age: 61
Posts: 558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some interesting views here, and a level of arrogance rarely seen on any forum other than this one.
The airspace over the UK doesn't actually belong to the FJ drivers, despite what the vast majority of 'experts' on Pprune think. It's available to anyone who is a legitimate user, including the aerial photographers, crop sprayers, underslung load helos, bracken sprayers, hill soarers, paramotors and even the lowly civvie bloke who just wants to fly low level within the constraints of the UK Rules of the Air.
Whilst it may not be sensible to be in the UKLLS on a weekday, it's not 100% reserved for the military, apart from the large chunk of Scotland known as R610A-D. I must admit however, that anyone who needs to ask the resident experts on the Pprune Military forum is probably asking for trouble
CANP is the way to go, and I'll forgive the 3 Herks who wandered through the circuit of an active and marked airstrip at less than 500ft MSD while I was turning finals one day
The airspace over the UK doesn't actually belong to the FJ drivers, despite what the vast majority of 'experts' on Pprune think. It's available to anyone who is a legitimate user, including the aerial photographers, crop sprayers, underslung load helos, bracken sprayers, hill soarers, paramotors and even the lowly civvie bloke who just wants to fly low level within the constraints of the UK Rules of the Air.
Whilst it may not be sensible to be in the UKLLS on a weekday, it's not 100% reserved for the military, apart from the large chunk of Scotland known as R610A-D. I must admit however, that anyone who needs to ask the resident experts on the Pprune Military forum is probably asking for trouble
CANP is the way to go, and I'll forgive the 3 Herks who wandered through the circuit of an active and marked airstrip at less than 500ft MSD while I was turning finals one day
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Other legitimate users of low level airspace are the helicopter operators on gas pipeline surveillance flights. Their job is to fly the pipelines routes regularly to see that no farmer/builder is using a JCB or suchlike which might damage the pipelines.
If they see such a situation, they must land and inform the farmer/builder of the dangers of breaching a pipeline.
These helicopters carry a pilot and observer, and some years ago, when I was involved in such activities, we had regular meetings between the gas companies and the RAF to try to ensure that they stayed apart. Our plan was to put lightweight transponders in the helicopters and the FJs would be able to "see" them on their radar. Sounds like it didn't happen.
If they see such a situation, they must land and inform the farmer/builder of the dangers of breaching a pipeline.
These helicopters carry a pilot and observer, and some years ago, when I was involved in such activities, we had regular meetings between the gas companies and the RAF to try to ensure that they stayed apart. Our plan was to put lightweight transponders in the helicopters and the FJs would be able to "see" them on their radar. Sounds like it didn't happen.
It may be "available to anyone who is a legitimate user, including the aerial photographers, crop sprayers, underslung load helos, bracken sprayers, hill soarers, paramotors and even the lowly civvie bloke who just wants to fly low level within the constraints of the UK Rules of the Air."
But that does not make it good airmanship to exercise that right.
But that does not make it good airmanship to exercise that right.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally, I think that the level and tone of advice on this thread was quite ok. It was a reasonable question and some helpful advice was the result. Plus, it didn't attract (at least not yet) some of the more 'difficult' posters who clog up some threads - you know who you are!
I am still laughing about the monniker 'Wee Jock McPlop' - brilliant!
I am still laughing about the monniker 'Wee Jock McPlop' - brilliant!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
He was flying single pilot doing speculative house photography. Perhaps because we were in the garden looking at him he thought we woul dbe a good prospect for a buy.
He made 3 passes at heights in the region of 150 feet. I was able to get my camera and with guidance from the CAA we scaled the distance/height problem. Even with a photo of him, sun-tanned, sun glasses, white shirt, they were unable to prove in a court of law that he was the PIC. He received a stern warning but it didn't work.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: England
Posts: 362
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Jackonicko,
It's poor airmanship to fly below 2000' midweek is it? Soz, but you separate civvies and FJ at low-level mid week or banish FJ to dedicated training areas. Mig Alley running up to the Humber Northbound has no training value for aircrew at OCU level.
Lookout cuts both ways. Don't tell me that all FJ mates are steely-eyed demi-gods who never make mistakes. Bombing the wrong island, 6-ship flypasts through the wrong active circuit, you name it, they've done it. (Ask Shobdon).
To blame a slower aircraft for an accident when you have rocked up from his six at 420, late sighting followed by a departure from controlled flight due to control inputs that exceed the envelope and it's his fault? Similar thing happened to me in a Tincan in mooncountry a few years ago. Luckily nobody was hurt. Aggressive Tonka mate on the phone was made aware that the Rules of the Air are quite clear.
Obviously, you are an arse if you float about in a flow arrow taking pictures of grannies house at 500', but you cannot go with the automatic premise that mil FJ at low level in the UK have impeccable lookout.
They haven't, and I've seen it enough times to know it's not so.
I'd still wait till the weekend though.
It's poor airmanship to fly below 2000' midweek is it? Soz, but you separate civvies and FJ at low-level mid week or banish FJ to dedicated training areas. Mig Alley running up to the Humber Northbound has no training value for aircrew at OCU level.
Lookout cuts both ways. Don't tell me that all FJ mates are steely-eyed demi-gods who never make mistakes. Bombing the wrong island, 6-ship flypasts through the wrong active circuit, you name it, they've done it. (Ask Shobdon).
To blame a slower aircraft for an accident when you have rocked up from his six at 420, late sighting followed by a departure from controlled flight due to control inputs that exceed the envelope and it's his fault? Similar thing happened to me in a Tincan in mooncountry a few years ago. Luckily nobody was hurt. Aggressive Tonka mate on the phone was made aware that the Rules of the Air are quite clear.
Obviously, you are an arse if you float about in a flow arrow taking pictures of grannies house at 500', but you cannot go with the automatic premise that mil FJ at low level in the UK have impeccable lookout.
They haven't, and I've seen it enough times to know it's not so.
I'd still wait till the weekend though.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Church Fenton
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"" Mig Alley running up to the Humber Northbound .........""
Is that not just about where TSR22 proposes to be tomorrow? I did a quick Google Earth check for Newport village.
You are right about the FJ mates not being perfect - I well recall being rather startled climbing out of Wickenby rw03 on an early solo and seeing a pair of A10s meandering past not very far off. However, out in the open FIR I would have thought that the FJs have a business to be fast and low-level whereas amateur airborne photography seems rather less defensible.
Is that not just about where TSR22 proposes to be tomorrow? I did a quick Google Earth check for Newport village.
You are right about the FJ mates not being perfect - I well recall being rather startled climbing out of Wickenby rw03 on an early solo and seeing a pair of A10s meandering past not very far off. However, out in the open FIR I would have thought that the FJs have a business to be fast and low-level whereas amateur airborne photography seems rather less defensible.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Up North where its cold like!
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Again..
I thought about some of the advice and replies that I have read here and something just occurred to me...
An average flight (any time during the week) for a club aeroplane would be to head out, into open FIR at anything between 1000-3000ft (including (and especially) around the Trent Falls area). General handling, PFL's and other things all go on in the normal turn of events. No-one ever complains or comments and Doncaster usually work the traffic in the area.
The fact that I asked an innocent question about TCAS (that was the real reason for the thread) and I essentially intend to do the above (but with a passenger who has a camera) surely does not mean that I am demonstrating either bad airmanship or breaking the law - I think that some of the comments were a little unfair.
I'm still suprised at the lack of collision avoidance software/hardware in otherwise well equipped jets though!!!
I'm beginning to wish I never mentioned the camera bit.....!!!!
I thought about some of the advice and replies that I have read here and something just occurred to me...
An average flight (any time during the week) for a club aeroplane would be to head out, into open FIR at anything between 1000-3000ft (including (and especially) around the Trent Falls area). General handling, PFL's and other things all go on in the normal turn of events. No-one ever complains or comments and Doncaster usually work the traffic in the area.
The fact that I asked an innocent question about TCAS (that was the real reason for the thread) and I essentially intend to do the above (but with a passenger who has a camera) surely does not mean that I am demonstrating either bad airmanship or breaking the law - I think that some of the comments were a little unfair.
I'm still suprised at the lack of collision avoidance software/hardware in otherwise well equipped jets though!!!I'm beginning to wish I never mentioned the camera bit.....!!!!
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cheshire, California, Geneva, and Paris
Age: 67
Posts: 867
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I also seem to remember in the 1980s an USAF A10 based at either Woodbridge or Bentwaters killed a student pilot in the circuit when it flew through the Norwich circuit by mistake and ran the Cessna down.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: England
Posts: 362
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TSR22
Mate.
Whatever happens, there is no such thing as a stupid question in aviation.
This applies to PPL groundschool right up to the classic: 'Reckon we can make it?' Apache hits trees and crashes.
Regardless of what we fly, or how good we think we are, we will always park machines in the wrong place. Sometimes at high speed.
You can come on here and some smart arse will flame you. Ignore them. Heed those who give you constructive advice, and mine is: ask.
Whatever happens, there is no such thing as a stupid question in aviation.
This applies to PPL groundschool right up to the classic: 'Reckon we can make it?' Apache hits trees and crashes.
Regardless of what we fly, or how good we think we are, we will always park machines in the wrong place. Sometimes at high speed.
You can come on here and some smart arse will flame you. Ignore them. Heed those who give you constructive advice, and mine is: ask.
Guest
Posts: n/a
TSR22,
I fully agree with Monty - if in doubt ask. I'm sorry it appears to be a bit of a 'bearpit', but I would rather take some of flack and get the answer I'm hoping/looking for.
Additionally, you might pick-up some other nuggets along the way.
Good luck,
WJMcP
Dee Cee,
I hope it was a back-handed compliment, or I'll send Maw McPlop roond ta sort ya oot pal
I fully agree with Monty - if in doubt ask. I'm sorry it appears to be a bit of a 'bearpit', but I would rather take some of flack and get the answer I'm hoping/looking for.
Additionally, you might pick-up some other nuggets along the way.Good luck,
WJMcP
Dee Cee,
I hope it was a back-handed compliment, or I'll send Maw McPlop roond ta sort ya oot pal
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Up North where its cold like!
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey there (again)
Can I just say - I like the Jock McPlop thing too!!!!!
Yes - I've listened to the advice (ignored the rants) and there have been some very informative things said on this thread - thanks for those
As for the other stuff - well, I guess if you cant take a joke, shouldn't have joined.....!
I will take my pics tomorrow (weather and ATC permitting) and once again, let me reiterate - I will conform to all laws and exercise good airmanship - I do care about flight safety.
I do have another quick question (slightly schoolboy and off thread): if you use primary radar in a fast jet, and struggle to see the slow stuff; can you shoot down slow movers (such as helicopters) easily, or would you have to make a second pass (into dodgy ground here!!)?
Cheers guys (both good and bad!)
Can I just say - I like the Jock McPlop thing too!!!!!
Yes - I've listened to the advice (ignored the rants) and there have been some very informative things said on this thread - thanks for those
As for the other stuff - well, I guess if you cant take a joke, shouldn't have joined.....!
I will take my pics tomorrow (weather and ATC permitting) and once again, let me reiterate - I will conform to all laws and exercise good airmanship - I do care about flight safety.
I do have another quick question (slightly schoolboy and off thread): if you use primary radar in a fast jet, and struggle to see the slow stuff; can you shoot down slow movers (such as helicopters) easily, or would you have to make a second pass (into dodgy ground here!!)?
Cheers guys (both good and bad!)
Guest
Posts: n/a
DC10RealMan,
I think this is the accident to which you refer:
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...5%20G-BFEL.pdf
I think it is, although the facts of the event don't fit with your description...
The link is a sobering and relevant read to anyone with a genuine interest in the subject of this thread. Even open FIR collisions (as this one actually was) are usually the result of human limitations, cockpit design, or sheer bad luck. If the constant relative bearing of a collision course puts the other aircraft behind your windscreen pillar, you probably ain't going to see it until too late...
Let's all just be sensible and careful out there!
I think this is the accident to which you refer:
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...5%20G-BFEL.pdf
I think it is, although the facts of the event don't fit with your description...
The link is a sobering and relevant read to anyone with a genuine interest in the subject of this thread. Even open FIR collisions (as this one actually was) are usually the result of human limitations, cockpit design, or sheer bad luck. If the constant relative bearing of a collision course puts the other aircraft behind your windscreen pillar, you probably ain't going to see it until too late...
Let's all just be sensible and careful out there!
Obvious question, when the mil have R610A-D plus all the danger areas to practice in, why is there a justifiable need to fly low level and fast in the open FIR? Why not adopt the system that works so well in many countries where mil traffic transits med/high level to safe areas working ATC, then train in an environment where they can concentrate on their mission? That way both civvies and mil can enjoy their pursuit legally and safely.
Ps How come the mil can object to others flying in the open FIR legally, yet also object to controlled airspace as a matter of course?
Ps How come the mil can object to others flying in the open FIR legally, yet also object to controlled airspace as a matter of course?
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The front end and about 50ft up
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Because not transiting at low level is a wasted training opportunity, the exclusively military areas may not be large enough for meaningful low-level navigation or may not be in particularly convenient locations and because there are very few good and legal reasons why a non-professional civvy pilot should be in the surface to 500ft band where a midair is more likely.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DC10RealMan - The accident I believe you refer to happened 1n 1984, 10 miles South of Norwich, in uncontrolled airspace. Both pilots had the opportunity to see the other, but sadly did not - the well documented limitations of the Mk 1 eyeball. The A-10 driver did not "fly through the Norwich circuit by mistake and run the Cessna down".