RAF Memorial Flight?
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Al R, I think we agree the desirability of keeping the Vulcan and I am frequently dismayed that our Nation seems so eager to shed our past and forget our traditions.
Our children will not only be paying the price of this profligate government for years to come but will also have to rely on pictures of our history.
Our children will not only be paying the price of this profligate government for years to come but will also have to rely on pictures of our history.
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Yes, I quite agree - except they have already gone to the scrapyard
Nalls Aviation - Home of the Sea Harrier
...and there are a load in the hangar at Shawbury.
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The Vulcan has been brought back to the sky, where she belonged, and for a few months she was a majestic sight in the air.
BUT - there is no room for sentiment where MoD cash is concerned. The Vulcan to the Air campaign was run by enthusiastic amateurs and got (at least after 2 or 3 attempts) several million from the Lottery. I am an old Vulcan man myself and wish the aircraft could be saved for the nation, but it is a very expensive aircraft to keep airworthy. Although many OEM companies (or their successors) gave an enormous amount of time and support to the venture, it was always going to end like this sooner or later.
If 558 joins an RAF Memorial Flight, what will be the next aircraft that will be sentimentally praised and pushed for inclusion? IMHO the Lancaster, Spitfire and Hurricane are the only "veteran" aircraft that should be retained in flying condition. The Dakota is fine, but should be the first to go if (or when) funding gets tight. There is certainly no sentiment in the minds of the MoD nerds who will make the decision on the future of the BBMF.
As I understand it, there is a Vulcan Educational Trust (or some such) which was the reason for the Lottery grant. If the aircraft is no longer to be flown then will the Lottery want a refund? I wonder what the conditions of the Lottery funding were?
Pip pip
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BUT - there is no room for sentiment where MoD cash is concerned. The Vulcan to the Air campaign was run by enthusiastic amateurs and got (at least after 2 or 3 attempts) several million from the Lottery. I am an old Vulcan man myself and wish the aircraft could be saved for the nation, but it is a very expensive aircraft to keep airworthy. Although many OEM companies (or their successors) gave an enormous amount of time and support to the venture, it was always going to end like this sooner or later.
If 558 joins an RAF Memorial Flight, what will be the next aircraft that will be sentimentally praised and pushed for inclusion? IMHO the Lancaster, Spitfire and Hurricane are the only "veteran" aircraft that should be retained in flying condition. The Dakota is fine, but should be the first to go if (or when) funding gets tight. There is certainly no sentiment in the minds of the MoD nerds who will make the decision on the future of the BBMF.
As I understand it, there is a Vulcan Educational Trust (or some such) which was the reason for the Lottery grant. If the aircraft is no longer to be flown then will the Lottery want a refund? I wonder what the conditions of the Lottery funding were?
Pip pip
ON
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Memorial?
I understand that the Spit, 'cane & Lanc are a memorial to all those that lost their life in WWII, but how would a Vulcan act as a memorial? It was only used in anger once and no one lost their life in that sortie!
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Mmmmmm
Given the choice, I would rather see an EE lightning, a Buc and maybe a javelin instead.
I would assume all these together would cost less that the Vulcan.
Just my view !
I would assume all these together would cost less that the Vulcan.
Just my view !
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I'm as much a fan of the mighty Vulcan as the next man but what do you think of this for an idea?
I heard that NX611 Just Jane at East Kirkby needs only a re-spar to be able to fly again. The cost estimate seems to be about £1 million and then we'd have two operational Lancasters.
Has anyone any idea of what it might cost to get LV907 Friday the 13th at Elvington into the air? Two Lancasters and a Halifax? That would take me back to RAF At Homes at Thornaby-on-Tees!
I heard that NX611 Just Jane at East Kirkby needs only a re-spar to be able to fly again. The cost estimate seems to be about £1 million and then we'd have two operational Lancasters.
Has anyone any idea of what it might cost to get LV907 Friday the 13th at Elvington into the air? Two Lancasters and a Halifax? That would take me back to RAF At Homes at Thornaby-on-Tees!
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Sorry Exscribbler, but if you think the Halifax at Elvington would fly, then so would pigs!
Its a fine tribute to the men who flew the aircraft, but its also cobbled together from genuine sections of Halifax, the wings of a Hastings, and light alloy sections in between.
QP
Its a fine tribute to the men who flew the aircraft, but its also cobbled together from genuine sections of Halifax, the wings of a Hastings, and light alloy sections in between.
QP
"The Dakota is fine, but should be the first to go if (or when) funding gets tight"
Err, no. The Dakota may not have the glamour of the "punchy" types but serves not only as an essential stepping stone to the Lanc, but also commemorates the role the AT performed in WW2 (Overlord, Market Garden, Varsity, Far East) and afterwards (Berlin Airlift). After all, Dakota crews won more VCs than fighter command.... Flog a MkXIX Spitfire first (after all, they're only recce birds) or the Mk IX.
Vulcan is a wonderfully visceral experience, as is the Lightning, but neither have a place in the Historic Flight due to complexity, cost and (relative) lack of combat heritage. A Tornado GR4, Jag or GR9 would have a far more compelling case, as would the Wessex (which must have flown the most operational sorties of any RAF ac since WW2), Chinook or Puma. Now a Mosquito would fit the bill nicely, flog a couple of Spits and make it happen!
Err, no. The Dakota may not have the glamour of the "punchy" types but serves not only as an essential stepping stone to the Lanc, but also commemorates the role the AT performed in WW2 (Overlord, Market Garden, Varsity, Far East) and afterwards (Berlin Airlift). After all, Dakota crews won more VCs than fighter command.... Flog a MkXIX Spitfire first (after all, they're only recce birds) or the Mk IX.
Vulcan is a wonderfully visceral experience, as is the Lightning, but neither have a place in the Historic Flight due to complexity, cost and (relative) lack of combat heritage. A Tornado GR4, Jag or GR9 would have a far more compelling case, as would the Wessex (which must have flown the most operational sorties of any RAF ac since WW2), Chinook or Puma. Now a Mosquito would fit the bill nicely, flog a couple of Spits and make it happen!
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I think consideration needs to go to other service historic collections like:
Royal Navy Historic Flight
Royal Navy Historic Flight - Home Pages
and the AAC Historic Flight
Both of which (unlike BBMF) rely on public donation to keep their few aircraft flying (Swordfish, Sea Fury etc). The drain the Vulcan to the Air placed on benefactors must bring into question its value for money - great though it was to see flying, what an achievement!
Royal Navy Historic Flight
Royal Navy Historic Flight - Home Pages
and the AAC Historic Flight
Both of which (unlike BBMF) rely on public donation to keep their few aircraft flying (Swordfish, Sea Fury etc). The drain the Vulcan to the Air placed on benefactors must bring into question its value for money - great though it was to see flying, what an achievement!
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Avitor,
To us - maybe, but what about future generations?
We think of the Cold War in visceral terms, but just as the decision to save HMS Victory was made after it had seen just 40 years service because they understood what it meant looking ahead, so too must we look on saving The Vulcan, and others, from the perspective of the future and not the present.
And if that means addressing huge problems in order to achieve that, then so be it.
To us - maybe, but what about future generations?
We think of the Cold War in visceral terms, but just as the decision to save HMS Victory was made after it had seen just 40 years service because they understood what it meant looking ahead, so too must we look on saving The Vulcan, and others, from the perspective of the future and not the present.
And if that means addressing huge problems in order to achieve that, then so be it.
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exscribblerI'm as much a fan of the mighty Vulcan as the next man but what do you think of this for an idea?
I heard that NX611 Just Jane at East Kirkby needs only a re-spar to be able to fly again. The cost estimate seems to be about £1 million and then we'd have two operational Lancasters.
Has anyone any idea of what it might cost to get LV907 Friday the 13th at Elvington into the air? Two Lancasters and a Halifax? That would take me back to RAF At Homes at Thornaby-on-Tees!
I heard that NX611 Just Jane at East Kirkby needs only a re-spar to be able to fly again. The cost estimate seems to be about £1 million and then we'd have two operational Lancasters.
Has anyone any idea of what it might cost to get LV907 Friday the 13th at Elvington into the air? Two Lancasters and a Halifax? That would take me back to RAF At Homes at Thornaby-on-Tees!
Just jane was looked at and rumours were abound as to getting her Airborne for the New Dambusters movie, suffice to say they were rumours, British Aerospace did do a feasibility study on her but legislation costs etc scuppered that, she has 700 hrs remaining on her Spars...
Evalu8ter". Flog a MkXIX Spitfire first (after all, they're only recce birds)."
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But the Phantom was armed, the 19 wasn't and did not carry guns.
Originally Posted by Evalu8ter
Now a Mosquito would fit the bill nicely, flog a couple of Spits and make it happen!
Who knows, if BAe had made the decision a year ealier to donate it to BBMF, maybe RR299 and two crew might still be with us.....
And sadly the best candiate for a return to the air of a UK Mossie was the one that the RAFM gave to the Norweigans
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the Vulcan Display Flight was scrapped was because it was costing too much to maintain.
Incidentally, it is as well to remember The BBMF isn't just a bunch of pretty aeroplanes with which to decorate air shows. It is a war memorial; a tribute to the tens of thousands of RAF aircrew who made the ultimate sacrifice flying these and other machines just like them.
HMS Whimbrel, last surviving escort of The Battle of the Atlantic, won't be making its way back to Liverpool to become a memorial unless they can raise £2m because, since the trust had a "commercial" use for it that didn't involve scrapping the ship, the Egyptian Government has now revalued the ship from its scrap value of £250k to £1m. Now that would be money well spent...
Last edited by Blacksheep; 15th Feb 2009 at 14:09.
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Blacksheep - you're off-thread but what the heck.
HMS Whimbrel (currently the Egyptian TARIQ) is the only surviving example of the RN's Black Swan class frigate which did so much to defend Atlantic convoys from the U-boats. Furthermore she could also become a lasting memorial to Captain FJ Walker CB DSO** RN and his ship STARLING of the same class. Another sister, MAGPIE, was once commanded by the Duke of Edinburgh.
Let us not forget either the Egyptian ship EL FATAH, the former HMS Zenith, a last example of a war-built classic RN destroyer which would serve well as a memorial to the men of the Russian convoys.
HMS Whimbrel (currently the Egyptian TARIQ) is the only surviving example of the RN's Black Swan class frigate which did so much to defend Atlantic convoys from the U-boats. Furthermore she could also become a lasting memorial to Captain FJ Walker CB DSO** RN and his ship STARLING of the same class. Another sister, MAGPIE, was once commanded by the Duke of Edinburgh.
Let us not forget either the Egyptian ship EL FATAH, the former HMS Zenith, a last example of a war-built classic RN destroyer which would serve well as a memorial to the men of the Russian convoys.
Last edited by exscribbler; 16th Feb 2009 at 22:06.
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Not to mention ...
High - very, very high - on the list of post-WW2 aircraft that deserve preservation and inclusion in Historic Flights should surely be Mr. Petter's magnificent Canberra - preferably a B.15 - which kept a lot going at "the sharp end" after the 1957 "Sandys Storm" till the Buccaneer arrived, and in PR form stayed operational until not that long ago. Now THERE WAS an Aeroplane of many talents and delightful to drive!!!
PS - Quoi, biased, moi ?
PS - Quoi, biased, moi ?
