ATSOCAS - 12 Mar 09
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I know it sounds petty but I for one will still use roll or overshoot at a military base, I think most of us already use civvy r/t at civvy aerodromes. Why do we always have to come in-line with the civilian fraternity, we operate differently and therefore should have nuances in the way we do things. The cynic in me thinks that going fully to the civvy rules will save a couple of SO2s somewhere writing and ammending military regulations. Cost saving?
I for one will still use roll or overshoot at a military base,
Why do we always have to come in-line with the civilian fraternity, we operate differently and therefore should have nuances in the way we do things.
), it makes sense to use the standard terminology of the majority where possible but to retain uniquely military terminology where essential.After a CHIRP submission due to a military ATCO clearing a departing aircraft to take-off whilst another was on short final to land - which the departing aircraft wisely refused - the response from whatever IFS is now called indicated a greater interest in trying to witch hunt and hang the ATCO than in solving the problem. The problem was actually due to the military failing to use 'conditional clearances' - e.g. "After landing traffic, line up and wait" or similar. It was then revealed that the only reason that the military didn't want to align their terminology with rest-of-the-UK practice was that there was nobody available to 'staff' the change.....
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Originally Posted by spheroid
Not military pilots. The ATC'ers have been bleating on about this for months with roadshows, lessons, DVDs, presentations etc etc blah blah....there isn't a military pilot who doesn't know this is coming.
...or is that a bad assumption?
Not currently posted there, but due to return to Mildenhall this May...I have passed along some info to folks I know there with hopes they already are aware.
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CAP413 use at Military Bases
Folks,
What does the adoption of CAP 413 mean in terms of military circuits? If I fly a circuit at a civil airfield with an ATSU and call downwind I will typically get one of three responses:
"Report ready for base", "Report left (or right) base" or "Report finals number 1" The key thing is I am told to "Report" at a particular point.
At a miltary base this does not of course happen ( at least in my limited experience) since I would call downwind to roll or land and get told the surface wind. My next call would be "finals"
Is this likely to change?
7143
What does the adoption of CAP 413 mean in terms of military circuits? If I fly a circuit at a civil airfield with an ATSU and call downwind I will typically get one of three responses:
"Report ready for base", "Report left (or right) base" or "Report finals number 1" The key thing is I am told to "Report" at a particular point.
At a miltary base this does not of course happen ( at least in my limited experience) since I would call downwind to roll or land and get told the surface wind. My next call would be "finals"
Is this likely to change?
7143
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Sqk 7143,
Nope the downwind calls, finals calls - in fact any of the std vis cct calls remain the same. The vast majority of phraseology changes are to do with ATSOCAS, Terrain levels and Types of Service.
Of course all this could have been known to you had you sourced a copy of the documents.
Nope the downwind calls, finals calls - in fact any of the std vis cct calls remain the same. The vast majority of phraseology changes are to do with ATSOCAS, Terrain levels and Types of Service.
Of course all this could have been known to you had you sourced a copy of the documents.
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Grabbers,
Ok, its just that I saw the exchange on "touch and go" and "go around". Are they not visual circuit calls? I just wondered what the implications of those particular changes might mean on the visual circuit overall.
Thanks anyway.
7143
Ok, its just that I saw the exchange on "touch and go" and "go around". Are they not visual circuit calls? I just wondered what the implications of those particular changes might mean on the visual circuit overall.
Thanks anyway.
7143
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Beg pardon if I've missed it, on here, but one aspect of the move to new ATSOCAS appears to have been overlooked; namely that the civil and military ATC worlds will (should) be using the same terms with common understanding thereof. That must be an improvement, surely ?
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Just to wander off topic slightly...
JSP 552 has changed in that Mil ATCO's can issue conditional clearances subject to certain conditions... though to be honest I have yet to see a unit that will allow its ATCO's to exercise that right (asides from the three of us who were cleared to use them by the ATCEB last year, and I must say that they work very well in certain conditions).
As for the phraseology, the 552 also states:
It's all there for us to use, if only they let us.
The problem was actually due to the military failing to use 'conditional clearances' - e.g. "After landing traffic, line up and wait" or similar. It was then revealed that the only reason that the military didn't want to align their terminology with rest-of-the-UK practice was that there was nobody available to 'staff' the change....
JSP 552 has changed in that Mil ATCO's can issue conditional clearances subject to certain conditions... though to be honest I have yet to see a unit that will allow its ATCO's to exercise that right (asides from the three of us who were cleared to use them by the ATCEB last year, and I must say that they work very well in certain conditions).
905.150.5 All clearances to enter, land on, take-off on, cross and backtrack on the runway in use are to be read back. Other clearances and instructions (including conditional clearances) are to be read back or acknowledged in a manner, which clearly indicates that they have been understood and
accepted.
accepted.
As for the phraseology, the 552 also states:
901.100.1 The air-ground-air communications procedures in CAP 413 and ACP 125 are to be used for all air-ground-air communications with civil aircraft and with civil-operated ground stations. The air-ground procedures in Allied Communications Publications (ACPs) are to be used for all other
purposes.
purposes.
