First Name Basis or 'Sir'?
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Rotary dit on...
Dartmoor, Sarops on, at night, very dark, lots of mist and stuff, pre nvg, pre GPS, 20-30 feet agl, 'kin dangerous.
Trying to nav out the cargo door with a right angle torch and a 50 thou, to a casualty.
My SAR diver was front left, hatch open, responding to my geographical inputs.
What I did not know; the a/c Captain’s first name was the same as my big, bezzy oppo, diver, mate.
Unaware of first name thing. I was telling/asking/giving directions up gulleys/ valleys and stuff, on a big best mate format.
On RTB, pulled to one side by RHS and told to “always call me Sir, in future”.
Trying to nav out the cargo door with a right angle torch and a 50 thou, to a casualty.
My SAR diver was front left, hatch open, responding to my geographical inputs.
What I did not know; the a/c Captain’s first name was the same as my big, bezzy oppo, diver, mate.
Unaware of first name thing. I was telling/asking/giving directions up gulleys/ valleys and stuff, on a big best mate format.
On RTB, pulled to one side by RHS and told to “always call me Sir, in future”.
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Cheer up - Gear Up
Going back to an early post on this thread, during the 1960's when I was at RAAF Base Edinburgh SA and it was a joint RAAF-RAF base, a similar story about an over-run of the runway was told. Allegedly, when "take-off power" was called for as the aircraft accelerated down the runway, either the F/E or the Non handling pilot retarded all throttles to idle. Can't verify the story, but it sounded OK at the time.
As for the safest way to address another in the military used to be as "Sir/Maam" for commissioned ranks, by rank for SNCO's and other ranks, except in multi-crew ops where "Capt" - "Co-Pilot" - "Nav" - "Eng" or "Loadie" was the go.
Worst example of "Class distinction" I ever heard was a very senior officer addressing a parade and onlookers. Quote, "Officer's and your Ladies, SNCO's and your wives, Airmen and your women" Good stuff eh!
As for the safest way to address another in the military used to be as "Sir/Maam" for commissioned ranks, by rank for SNCO's and other ranks, except in multi-crew ops where "Capt" - "Co-Pilot" - "Nav" - "Eng" or "Loadie" was the go.
Worst example of "Class distinction" I ever heard was a very senior officer addressing a parade and onlookers. Quote, "Officer's and your Ladies, SNCO's and your wives, Airmen and your women" Good stuff eh!
Last edited by Old Fella; 24th Jan 2009 at 03:18.
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From a groundie point of view, *most* aircrew are fine with being called by thier first/badge/nick names once introduced and known to each other, it is generally the c**ts (who most of the other aircrew dont like either 
) who insist on being called sir/sarg etc 
, obviously all called by rank unless previously cleared, or infront of higher powers, but why be so formal in circumstances that don't demand it? 
) who insist on being called sir/sarg etc , obviously all called by rank unless previously cleared, or infront of higher powers, but why be so formal in circumstances that don't demand it?
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Circumstances which don't demand it.
About 35 years ago the C130 Squadron I was part of got a new CO. a good bloke and one who thought that it was a good idea for all members of the squadron to be on a first name basis. It was a great idea, except that it came back to bite him. Problem is not everyone will be able to differentiate when the "circumstances don't demand addressing others by rank or position". and when they do.
Because the CO was embarassed more than a few times, especially at social events, the whole squadron had to revert back to the traditional ways. Different situation when operating as a crew as long as it is kept to that environment and there can be no confusion as with multiple same christian names.
Because the CO was embarassed more than a few times, especially at social events, the whole squadron had to revert back to the traditional ways. Different situation when operating as a crew as long as it is kept to that environment and there can be no confusion as with multiple same christian names.
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Working on multi crew (rank) aircraft have to say from a CRM point of view and safety use of rank should be banned!!!! What the point of SAC steward coming on the flight deck and using "sir!"? who are they talking to? Flight position is safest and clearest!!!
as for the 3 or 4 up front, again safest and clearest is flight position! id i/c is not used then flight position still good, but first names worked well for last 30 odd years and the civvies seem to cope with it
in other words Horses for Courses
as for the 3 or 4 up front, again safest and clearest is flight position! id i/c is not used then flight position still good, but first names worked well for last 30 odd years and the civvies seem to cope with it
in other words Horses for Courses
I think that this is one of the few things the V-force had right!
First, Co, Radar, Plotter, AEO
If there was a QFI on board, he would be the Captain, irrespective of which seat he was in, but would routinely be addressed by crew position. Similarly, a Phase 5 co-piglet flying in the first pilot's position with the constituted crew would be 'First' and the other pilot 'Co'. But if the 'real' Captain needed to make a command decision, he would call 'Captain to crew' - which would wake everyone up in an unambiguous manner!
Whereas the trucky force was far more cumbersome - whoever sat in the Left Seat was 'Captain' even if he/she wasn't the Aircraft Commander and the 'real' Captain was a QFI sitting in the Right Seat as co-pilot or was in the jump seat. Nothing worse than if a question was posed as "Captain?" "Yes?" "No, sorry, not you, but the other Captain" or similar.
I don't know what the Kipper Fleet did in the air on their multiplicity of intercomms with their back end captains - a situation which the 'no stick = no vote' pilots in the rest of the RAF used to find distinctly odd. Although a mate of mine told of the night when the first pilot had to go around due to low cloud, only to be asked by the back end Captain "Can't you go a little lower next time?". To which he handed over control to the co-pilot, unstrapped went down to the back end amongst the pie munchers and said "All yours then, Captain!". Needless to say, they diverted!
Huggy-fluffy civvy world with 2 pilots and a number of flight attendants - not the same thing at all. As would doubtless be confirmed by a certain ex-FJ pilot on TriShaws who found it distinctly unmilitary and overly familiar to be addressed on first name terms by corporal stewards. Not many did it twice, I gather! Although there were occasions, one understands (usually on the 'Long Dulles'), when stewardesses adressed their captains as God - as in "Oh God, oh God, OH GOD......!!!
"
First, Co, Radar, Plotter, AEO
If there was a QFI on board, he would be the Captain, irrespective of which seat he was in, but would routinely be addressed by crew position. Similarly, a Phase 5 co-piglet flying in the first pilot's position with the constituted crew would be 'First' and the other pilot 'Co'. But if the 'real' Captain needed to make a command decision, he would call 'Captain to crew' - which would wake everyone up in an unambiguous manner!
Whereas the trucky force was far more cumbersome - whoever sat in the Left Seat was 'Captain' even if he/she wasn't the Aircraft Commander and the 'real' Captain was a QFI sitting in the Right Seat as co-pilot or was in the jump seat. Nothing worse than if a question was posed as "Captain?" "Yes?" "No, sorry, not you, but the other Captain" or similar.
I don't know what the Kipper Fleet did in the air on their multiplicity of intercomms with their back end captains - a situation which the 'no stick = no vote' pilots in the rest of the RAF used to find distinctly odd. Although a mate of mine told of the night when the first pilot had to go around due to low cloud, only to be asked by the back end Captain "Can't you go a little lower next time?". To which he handed over control to the co-pilot, unstrapped went down to the back end amongst the pie munchers and said "All yours then, Captain!". Needless to say, they diverted!
Huggy-fluffy civvy world with 2 pilots and a number of flight attendants - not the same thing at all. As would doubtless be confirmed by a certain ex-FJ pilot on TriShaws who found it distinctly unmilitary and overly familiar to be addressed on first name terms by corporal stewards. Not many did it twice, I gather! Although there were occasions, one understands (usually on the 'Long Dulles'), when stewardesses adressed their captains as God - as in "Oh God, oh God, OH GOD......!!!
"
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
The Army has NCO, SNCO, WO and Officer Pilots of varying status and has generally coped admirably with the whole recognition of rank versus aircraft captaincy issues (the Kegworth twins being one glaring and expensive exception). Army Officers are seldom addressed as anything but "Sir" but as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, you can communicate effectively in a 2 man cockpit without the need for any formal address. When you know somebody personally, there is an obvious case for some relaxation as long as the boundaries of that are clearly understood. Some people can cope with this, others can't.
Corporal pilots are probably not calling any Majors "Tarquin" or "Fabian" on a regular basis, but Warrant Officers are probably using the term "Boss" quite comfortably, regardless of who is PIC. Sitting 12 inches from somebody for 2 hours and interacting on the most intimate of levels is a great environment for learning who gets called "Sir" through mutual respect and who just gets called "Sir".
One key difference in the Army is that out of the cockpit an Officer will usually have a key role in the Unit Command structure. Calling "Julian" by his first name 30 minutes before you have to march in to have a week's pay taken from you for bouncing cheques may stretch the bounds of familiarity a bit too far.
It's that age old problem for the Army, where the structure, rules and regulations are generally established by the 147,365 soldiers who don't fly aircraft, rather than the 647 who do. The Air Force is at least established solely for the purpose of operating aircraft, so it's easier to embed customs that support that aim.
Corporal pilots are probably not calling any Majors "Tarquin" or "Fabian" on a regular basis, but Warrant Officers are probably using the term "Boss" quite comfortably, regardless of who is PIC. Sitting 12 inches from somebody for 2 hours and interacting on the most intimate of levels is a great environment for learning who gets called "Sir" through mutual respect and who just gets called "Sir".
One key difference in the Army is that out of the cockpit an Officer will usually have a key role in the Unit Command structure. Calling "Julian" by his first name 30 minutes before you have to march in to have a week's pay taken from you for bouncing cheques may stretch the bounds of familiarity a bit too far.
It's that age old problem for the Army, where the structure, rules and regulations are generally established by the 147,365 soldiers who don't fly aircraft, rather than the 647 who do. The Air Force is at least established solely for the purpose of operating aircraft, so it's easier to embed customs that support that aim.
I always thought that the following exchange (# 108 in that terrific thread "I wish I hadn't said that ....") was a very interesting indication of CRM in the Royal Air Force:
Great Fun!!!
An old and infamous herc loadie once had the AOC on board and with the AOC on headset decides to wind his captain up.
Unplugging the AOCs Intercom he announces "The AOC's a C@nt!"
Shocked silence flashing of career in front of captains eyes.
again "The AOC's a C@nt!"
Voice of AOC on intercom "Loadies a C@nt he's just unplugged the nav"
With grateful thanks to LunchMonitor.
Jack
Great Fun!!!
An old and infamous herc loadie once had the AOC on board and with the AOC on headset decides to wind his captain up.
Unplugging the AOCs Intercom he announces "The AOC's a C@nt!"
Shocked silence flashing of career in front of captains eyes.
again "The AOC's a C@nt!"
Voice of AOC on intercom "Loadies a C@nt he's just unplugged the nav"
With grateful thanks to LunchMonitor.
Jack
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Not so much a similar career path but a similar smoldering hole in the ground (quite a bit smaller) due to some very similar circumstances and a CRM gradient akin to the white cliffs of Dover.
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Good post and pretty much on the money. We are very familiar in the AAC. That does bite when you are an appointment holder!..can lead to some akward situations!
However, I think most people are grown up enough and adult enough to recognise that.
Ralph
However, I think most people are grown up enough and adult enough to recognise that.
Ralph
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
BEags,
I agree the Coastal issue was not quite as clear cut as the Vs but is worked OK.
The majority of captains were pilots so it was only with the odd (
) AEO or nav captain that one had to remember to address the front end as pilot if you required a velocity change - you didn't know whether 'twas the 1st or Co that was flying.
A nav captain was also either Route or Tac sortie and sortie about.
AEO was easy - it was the wet or dry team we talked to, not the AEO
I agree the Coastal issue was not quite as clear cut as the Vs but is worked OK.
The majority of captains were pilots so it was only with the odd (
) AEO or nav captain that one had to remember to address the front end as pilot if you required a velocity change - you didn't know whether 'twas the 1st or Co that was flying.A nav captain was also either Route or Tac sortie and sortie about.
AEO was easy - it was the wet or dry team we talked to, not the AEO
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My father was a Spitfire pilot on 72 Sqn in 1942 at Biggin Hill. Below is his view on the topic, taken from his, as yet, unpublished memoires:
Jamie Rankin took over as Wing Commander Flying at Biggin Hill and Brian Kingcome took over 72 with Pete Wickham as ‘A’ Flight Commander. Now, you’ve heard me mention Brian Kingcome on a number of occasions, but I’ll just say, he was probably one of the finest leaders and squadron commanders I’ve ever come across. He really was tremendous. To begin with he had no side whatsoever and after being introduced to each of us at the dispersal, he said,
“Well, my name is Brian. I don’t want any of this “Sir” business, but on the other hand, if I’m talking to the Station Commander, I don’t want some Sergeant Pilot walking up and slapping me on the back and saying ”Wotcher Brian, how are you?””
Says it all, really.
Jamie Rankin took over as Wing Commander Flying at Biggin Hill and Brian Kingcome took over 72 with Pete Wickham as ‘A’ Flight Commander. Now, you’ve heard me mention Brian Kingcome on a number of occasions, but I’ll just say, he was probably one of the finest leaders and squadron commanders I’ve ever come across. He really was tremendous. To begin with he had no side whatsoever and after being introduced to each of us at the dispersal, he said,
“Well, my name is Brian. I don’t want any of this “Sir” business, but on the other hand, if I’m talking to the Station Commander, I don’t want some Sergeant Pilot walking up and slapping me on the back and saying ”Wotcher Brian, how are you?””
Says it all, really.
