Wanna see something sad?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,073
Received 2,942 Likes
on
1,253 Posts
Wanna see something sad?
Waste of what?
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bury St. Edmunds
Age: 64
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Retired front-line a/c - why don't we store them?
Prompted by this post I ought to ask why is it not worth the MOD storing retired a/c (especially frontline ones with some fatigue life remaining) like the Americans (and others) do?
Surely we have enough spare hangar/HAS space at all of our closed bases? I know we don't have a dry desert climate but sealed up and undercover they might still have a useful shelf-life, even if they only get used for spares recovery later - the value to the MOD must be more than just the scrap value today. Shar parts for India, Jag bits for Oman there must be a market out there...even Hunters to Lebanon if you wait long enough!
Perhaps it might be just too embarassing politically - imagine the headline - RAF frontline strength 200 A/C, mothballed fleet 400! Better in the bin and out of sight or perhaps I am being cynical.
MB
Surely we have enough spare hangar/HAS space at all of our closed bases? I know we don't have a dry desert climate but sealed up and undercover they might still have a useful shelf-life, even if they only get used for spares recovery later - the value to the MOD must be more than just the scrap value today. Shar parts for India, Jag bits for Oman there must be a market out there...even Hunters to Lebanon if you wait long enough!
Perhaps it might be just too embarassing politically - imagine the headline - RAF frontline strength 200 A/C, mothballed fleet 400! Better in the bin and out of sight or perhaps I am being cynical.
MB
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: NOTTINGHAM
Posts: 758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And then do what with it?
Foldy
PS. How's your project going, Phil R?
Madbob,
There are a number of reasons for not storing them; in no particular order:
1. To save money the military logistics system has moved from stockpiling vast amounts of spares "just in case" to a new system which is "just too late" by passing the onus onto industry to support our kit. The good thing for the beancounters is that it enabled them to dispose of large swathes of our depot system so there is not an awful lot of space left to store them, and spare HASs are dwindling as airfields close.
2. Related to point 1 is Resource Accounts Budgeting / Cost to Capital. In effect, every capital item the MoD owns (aircraft/tank/ship) costs the MoD 2.5% of its capital value per year to offset the money that the government has had to borrow to provide it. All assets do depreciate over time, but even a near lifex Jag will have a residual capital value. As will any hangar that you keep to put them in or kit you purchase to support it. RAB/C2C were designed to prevent Govt Depts "hoarding" assets, unfortunately this has removed much of the MoD's ability to surge/sustain campaigns at short notice.
3. Govts / Senior Officers don't like being proved wrong. Cut them up or flog them off and there's no chance of an embarressing future change of mind.
4. Protection of new toys. Do you honestly think anybody above Gp Capt in the RAF would risk the "my precious" Typhoon by keeping a couple of sqns of CAS ac at a time when the mud credentials of Typhoon are being pushed so much?
5. You're right. Unless I've missed it in 20 years of flying around the UK, there is not the climatic equivalent of AMARC anywhere. Maybe Cyprus, at a push??
6. The MoD are notoriously poor at realising good prices for surplus kit. Therefore, it's easier to dispose of them as a job lot and let a private company (such as Everett Aero) take the risk.
7. I may be wrong, but I recall that the F4s were scrapped due to CFE treaty restrictions. Maybe the Jag is also a treaty limited asset?
There are a number of reasons for not storing them; in no particular order:
1. To save money the military logistics system has moved from stockpiling vast amounts of spares "just in case" to a new system which is "just too late" by passing the onus onto industry to support our kit. The good thing for the beancounters is that it enabled them to dispose of large swathes of our depot system so there is not an awful lot of space left to store them, and spare HASs are dwindling as airfields close.
2. Related to point 1 is Resource Accounts Budgeting / Cost to Capital. In effect, every capital item the MoD owns (aircraft/tank/ship) costs the MoD 2.5% of its capital value per year to offset the money that the government has had to borrow to provide it. All assets do depreciate over time, but even a near lifex Jag will have a residual capital value. As will any hangar that you keep to put them in or kit you purchase to support it. RAB/C2C were designed to prevent Govt Depts "hoarding" assets, unfortunately this has removed much of the MoD's ability to surge/sustain campaigns at short notice.
3. Govts / Senior Officers don't like being proved wrong. Cut them up or flog them off and there's no chance of an embarressing future change of mind.
4. Protection of new toys. Do you honestly think anybody above Gp Capt in the RAF would risk the "my precious" Typhoon by keeping a couple of sqns of CAS ac at a time when the mud credentials of Typhoon are being pushed so much?
5. You're right. Unless I've missed it in 20 years of flying around the UK, there is not the climatic equivalent of AMARC anywhere. Maybe Cyprus, at a push??
6. The MoD are notoriously poor at realising good prices for surplus kit. Therefore, it's easier to dispose of them as a job lot and let a private company (such as Everett Aero) take the risk.
7. I may be wrong, but I recall that the F4s were scrapped due to CFE treaty restrictions. Maybe the Jag is also a treaty limited asset?
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Erehwon
Posts: 1,146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MRDs
Apparently, all is not lost.
They are going to depressurise the main landing gear and pump up the nose so that the thrust line points at the ground.
Then when full reheat is selected, a land rover (or adapted mini) can push them tail-first along the runway to de-ice it. . .
A bit like the old ones that required something big to push against the thrust of the old centrifugal engines out of meatboxes (God I was qualified on that).
They are going to depressurise the main landing gear and pump up the nose so that the thrust line points at the ground.
Then when full reheat is selected, a land rover (or adapted mini) can push them tail-first along the runway to de-ice it. . .
A bit like the old ones that required something big to push against the thrust of the old centrifugal engines out of meatboxes (God I was qualified on that).
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,568
Likes: 0
Received 46 Likes
on
31 Posts
It reminds me of Lossiemouth very many years ago when the only non-operational flying unit was the Jag OCU. Needless to say this led to much one sided banter ..... such as:
"Sheep in Wolf's Clothing"
"I hear that they are going to trial the Jaguar on the Sea Harrier Ski-Jump. They start it at the top and roll it down to get a bit more speed for take-off"
and so on. This reached such a pitch that a letter was sent round the Sqns asking (nay ordering) that said banter should cease as it was bad for the students. Next morning, each Jaguar on the line had a saucer of milk under its nose.
"Sheep in Wolf's Clothing"
"I hear that they are going to trial the Jaguar on the Sea Harrier Ski-Jump. They start it at the top and roll it down to get a bit more speed for take-off"
and so on. This reached such a pitch that a letter was sent round the Sqns asking (nay ordering) that said banter should cease as it was bad for the students. Next morning, each Jaguar on the line had a saucer of milk under its nose.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmmm
What a cruel bunch you are. I remember my Dad taking me to watch a Jag do some take offs and landings on the M55 when it first opened. It was quite good to be honest. Certainly didnt deserve the retirement it was given, I thought that was pretty disgraceful.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,073
Received 2,942 Likes
on
1,253 Posts
JAR FCLHmmmm
What a cruel bunch you are. I remember my Dad taking me to watch a Jag do some take offs and landings on the M55 when it first opened. It was quite good to be honest. Certainly didnt deserve the retirement it was given, I thought that was pretty disgraceful.
What a cruel bunch you are. I remember my Dad taking me to watch a Jag do some take offs and landings on the M55 when it first opened. It was quite good to be honest. Certainly didnt deserve the retirement it was given, I thought that was pretty disgraceful.
Are the Jaguars at Cosford not stored and kept in a return to service state? that was what they used to do........ remember in training at St Athans going into work after the Bank Holiday to find the Hunters had gone, they were readied and flown out to Warton and refurbished and flogged to Lebanon?
Phil_RAnd then do what with it?
How many significant figures to turn one of those into a private toy, even if it's legally doable?
P
How many significant figures to turn one of those into a private toy, even if it's legally doable?
P
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bury St. Edmunds
Age: 64
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jags at Laarbruch in 1979
Wensleydale,
I can well remember Jags at Laarbruch when fitted with recce pod and two jugs using ALL of the runway to get airborne in the summer.....they were barely off the ground when they passed the upwind barrier, which if raised they would not have cleared.
Things improved with later engines but the early ones were barely powerful enough for the job......
MB
I can well remember Jags at Laarbruch when fitted with recce pod and two jugs using ALL of the runway to get airborne in the summer.....they were barely off the ground when they passed the upwind barrier, which if raised they would not have cleared.
Things improved with later engines but the early ones were barely powerful enough for the job......
MB
