Memo: don't rely on the Brits during a battle
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What wars?
VinRouge,
Although I agree that there is a totally different mindset than the yanks, I disagree on the "winning wars" technique... What wars have they won post WWII? Vietnam: defeat, Korea:neither, nor
Last war, i.e. in which there was an enemy able to defeat you, was, in my opinion, the Falklands war. The rest have consisted in military ops, in which there was no oposition strong enough to defeat the US militarily. And even then, it is a complete clusterf***!
Although I agree that there is a totally different mindset than the yanks, I disagree on the "winning wars" technique... What wars have they won post WWII? Vietnam: defeat, Korea:neither, nor
Last war, i.e. in which there was an enemy able to defeat you, was, in my opinion, the Falklands war. The rest have consisted in military ops, in which there was no oposition strong enough to defeat the US militarily. And even then, it is a complete clusterf***!
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It's no great surprise that the US military aren't impressed by our military's kit. The US defence budget accounts for roughly a third (*) of the world's total defence spending.
I'm afraid that the average UK taxpayer isn't prepared to be quite as warlike as our American cousins.
* Source: CIA World Factbook
I'm afraid that the average UK taxpayer isn't prepared to be quite as warlike as our American cousins.
* Source: CIA World Factbook
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Wot a shame our brave men and woman have been let down by political inept leadership ,lack of finacial comitment and poor procurment policys ,
Instead of bailing out fat cat bankers who have been writing blank checks to people who cant pay the bills ,Give cash to the MOD, lets stop the rot before(if it isnt already) to late , we have the best people in our forces but as pointed out not the best gear and thats not accecpitable when you put men and woman in a war zone !
Instead of bailing out fat cat bankers who have been writing blank checks to people who cant pay the bills ,Give cash to the MOD, lets stop the rot before(if it isnt already) to late , we have the best people in our forces but as pointed out not the best gear and thats not accecpitable when you put men and woman in a war zone !
I'm afraid that the average UK taxpayer isn't prepared to be quite as warlike as our American cousins.
The difference between the peace loving Brits and the war mongering Americans is about the 1.5% more of comparitive GDP the US spends than the UK on defense.
West Coast,
Exactly the point. Our GDP will never permit us to have a military the size and spectrum of the USA. However, if our % of GDP spent on defence was back at something like cold war levels (4-5%) then we would have the funding to significantly enhance our capabilities.
The problem is that extra money would not change the mindsets of the individual services. Yet again the low tech / unglamourous kit that we need in Afg (AH, SH, AT, Protected Vehicles, etc) would be marginalised as the Military - Industrial complex gorged itself on more Typhoons, Carriers, DD/FFs and heavy armour.
Why don't we spend our way out of recession getting AW to build more AH and a load of Chinooks, BAES to build some Hawk 200s for CAS and for whoever builds tanks (vickers/GKN??) to build some protected mobility? Oh, and reverse the recent manpower cuts in the military and improve pay/conditions to stop people leaving. That should do it....
Exactly the point. Our GDP will never permit us to have a military the size and spectrum of the USA. However, if our % of GDP spent on defence was back at something like cold war levels (4-5%) then we would have the funding to significantly enhance our capabilities.
The problem is that extra money would not change the mindsets of the individual services. Yet again the low tech / unglamourous kit that we need in Afg (AH, SH, AT, Protected Vehicles, etc) would be marginalised as the Military - Industrial complex gorged itself on more Typhoons, Carriers, DD/FFs and heavy armour.
Why don't we spend our way out of recession getting AW to build more AH and a load of Chinooks, BAES to build some Hawk 200s for CAS and for whoever builds tanks (vickers/GKN??) to build some protected mobility? Oh, and reverse the recent manpower cuts in the military and improve pay/conditions to stop people leaving. That should do it....
I can tell you - we (JHF(A)) bailed the US on OEF out a significant number of times during my tour there around this time last year - far more than they did for us.
On a number of occasions they could not get their aviation chain of command turned around and briefed in enough time to effect some of the emergencies their OEF troops got themselves into and, being OEF, no one else would help (step forward the italians and spanish).
And the extraction of the Theatre Task Force after a particularly crunchy op couldn't have been done without the brits as no one else would fly in the poor weather we had.
So: tactically great,the brits, but let down massively by whitehall. Compare the size of southern Afghanistan and N Ireland and compare the number of available task lines to what we had in both countries (NI over 25 task lines vs 8 or so in Afghanistan).
Compare the numbers of troops in NI and Afghanistan. That tells you all you need to know about this govt's commitment to the job. This govt would spend £100 million on **** tips for gypsies to live in - and billions on bankers - before it would pump money into afghanistan or, indeed, the troops that work there in obsolete snatch vehicles.
And then gordon has the gall to lecture to the israelis? What a chod he is.
On a number of occasions they could not get their aviation chain of command turned around and briefed in enough time to effect some of the emergencies their OEF troops got themselves into and, being OEF, no one else would help (step forward the italians and spanish).
And the extraction of the Theatre Task Force after a particularly crunchy op couldn't have been done without the brits as no one else would fly in the poor weather we had.
So: tactically great,the brits, but let down massively by whitehall. Compare the size of southern Afghanistan and N Ireland and compare the number of available task lines to what we had in both countries (NI over 25 task lines vs 8 or so in Afghanistan).
Compare the numbers of troops in NI and Afghanistan. That tells you all you need to know about this govt's commitment to the job. This govt would spend £100 million on **** tips for gypsies to live in - and billions on bankers - before it would pump money into afghanistan or, indeed, the troops that work there in obsolete snatch vehicles.
And then gordon has the gall to lecture to the israelis? What a chod he is.
bring it on...
I can tell you - we (JHF(A)) bailed the US on OEF out a significant number of times during my tour there around this time last year - far more than they did for us.
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Instead of bailing out fat cat bankers who have been writing blank checks to people
The real culprits are the irresponsible spenders, and the bankers who lend them endless credit, and who both think HMG should bail them out.
Why don't we spend our way out of recession getting AW to build more AH and a load of Chinooks, BAES to build some Hawk 200s for CAS and for whoever builds tanks (vickers/GKN??) to build some protected mobility? Oh, and reverse the recent manpower cuts in the military and improve pay/conditions to stop people leaving. That should do it....
Exactly the point. Our GDP will never permit us to have a military the size and spectrum of the USA.
I say not quite.
US/UK % of GDP in 2005
Instead of bailing out fat cat bankers who have been writing blank checks to people who cant pay the bills
How about spending that GDP at home on healthcare, new infrastructure and 'home defence' measures. Leave the Yankee created clusterf**k that is the MEAO to the yanks.
Better still, why join them in said coalition in the first place? A quick history lesson is enough to show anyone that, in the long term, a ground war in the area cannot be won by an invading western military force.
The lessons of Vietnam and other conflicts have been forgotten. It's a shame because a lot of good people (on both sides) would still be alive today had they been heeded.
AC-130s don't kill as many enemy combatants as they create.
That said, the way the British government expects the military to do more with less is disgraceful. The C-130 esf debarcle is a good example. If funding is not going to increase, operations and capabilities need to be quantified and prioritised.
Better still, why join them in said coalition in the first place? A quick history lesson is enough to show anyone that, in the long term, a ground war in the area cannot be won by an invading western military force.
The lessons of Vietnam and other conflicts have been forgotten. It's a shame because a lot of good people (on both sides) would still be alive today had they been heeded.
AC-130s don't kill as many enemy combatants as they create.
That said, the way the British government expects the military to do more with less is disgraceful. The C-130 esf debarcle is a good example. If funding is not going to increase, operations and capabilities need to be quantified and prioritised.
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I've always found it very embarrassing. In theatre, we're commonly referrred to by their forces as 'The Borrowers'.
Understandable, but Whitehalls fault.
Understandable, but Whitehalls fault.
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The Americans haven't won a war since their Civil War without being part of a coalition. Maybe General Galtieri (retired) would like to pass a comment on the worth of our forces?
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..and the sourcing of AIM9L Sidewinders, Shrikes and a tanker load of fuel etc etc.
But seriously, without increasing our defence spending significantly, there's no way we can change the perception with the yanks. That said, are we comfortable with our own achievements. Politicians are all the same - they shout loud when its easy but are not prepared to put their money where their mouths are when the chaps really need backup. The problem with this war is they don't have one single credible objective to spout about to the public. We all know its a worthy task but they can't spout about ridding countries of tyrants and then say we need warlords or some other non-democracy to run the country - think what the voters might say
So they just let it fizzle on without being too outspoken and hope the budget balances with 'childcare issues in hackney' until it goes away. And as usual, the serviceman is left to pick up the pieces.
But seriously, without increasing our defence spending significantly, there's no way we can change the perception with the yanks. That said, are we comfortable with our own achievements. Politicians are all the same - they shout loud when its easy but are not prepared to put their money where their mouths are when the chaps really need backup. The problem with this war is they don't have one single credible objective to spout about to the public. We all know its a worthy task but they can't spout about ridding countries of tyrants and then say we need warlords or some other non-democracy to run the country - think what the voters might say
So they just let it fizzle on without being too outspoken and hope the budget balances with 'childcare issues in hackney' until it goes away. And as usual, the serviceman is left to pick up the pieces.
I don't suppose any menbers of the British Military starting with the CDS first are going to speak up on behalf of their service men & women. No, thought not, but not at all suprised, must keep our possible knighthood or seat in the Lords well & truly on track, pathetic of course, but true I think.
Secondly, how many US service personnel have been killed by British friendly fire in the last fifteen years or so?
Secondly, how many US service personnel have been killed by British friendly fire in the last fifteen years or so?
Cunning Artificer
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I'm afraid that the average UK taxpayer isn't prepared to be quite as warlike as our American cousins.
Meanwhile we are governed by "new-age" socialists who consider that even a minimilist defence of our borders is not a worthwhile use of taxpayers money. Think of all the asylum seekers, one-legged lesbian single mothers and under-privileged drug dealers that could make much better use of the cash.
