Helicopters shooting down aircraft
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: your sisters house
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Helicopters shooting down aircraft
I was just reading an article by Prof. Richard Wood called FIREFORCE and came across an account of a Rhodesian Airforce Alouette III, configured as a gunship or 'K-Car', flown by Charles Goatley, with Beaver Shaw manning the 20mm cannon, which had the distinction of shooting down a Botswana Defence Force Islander on 9 August 1979. This happened when Goatley was covering a recovery by helicopters of troops from an external operation against a Zimbabwe People's Revolutionary Army (ZIPRA) base at Francistown.
Are there any other accounts of choppers shooting down aircraft? I know some attack helicopters can carry air to air missiles but how real is this capability ?
Mo
Are there any other accounts of choppers shooting down aircraft? I know some attack helicopters can carry air to air missiles but how real is this capability ?
Mo
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Well, Lincolnshire
Age: 69
Posts: 1,101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tom Clancy 'did' it in one of his books. OK, that was fictional.....or was it? I seem to recall Stingers being attached to RW and having some successes against FW. I cannot for the life of me remember where I read/saw the report.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: bored
Posts: 532
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The French Air Force had/have(?) a Lynx configured for air to air role to defend Paris against light aircraft suicide attacks in 2000ish, after the DGSE got wind of a plan by Islamic to attack the Eiffel tower (yes, they did tell the US about the plan). Presumably they decided that a fast and manouvrable helicopter would potentially be more reactive and effective against a light aircraft than a Mirage.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK - Staffordshire
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apologies if I'm intruding but this example is out there
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...bat-first.html
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...bat-first.html
The Iraqi claim of an F4 shootdown is notorious; the claim was that they used an AT-6 against the F4. The Iraqis and Russain advisors even held a party to commemorate the event. Given the crossing target performance of the AT-6 this does seem an audacious claim, though a number of helo v helo engagements during the Iran/Iraq war did use ATGM (esp TOW) to good effect. Unsurprisingly, the Iranian side refuse to confirm the F4 loss and they counter claim 3 MiG-21 kills via the 20mm cannon on the Sea Cobra.
The big factor missing from the Iran/Iraq war was an IR AAM mounted on a helo (the Iranians mounted an AIM-9 on a Sea Cobra but seemingly never deplyed it). The A-A capability afforded by Stinger etc does make a suitably armed helo a much less attractive target; I do recall one TLT sortie where an AH in a fire position acquired a FJ on the radar, slaved the FLIR to it and would have had a possible shot if Stinger was fitted..cue lots of rumbling from the FJ community.
The bottom line is that a small degree of training can make a RW platform difficult for a FJ to successfully engage. For a high PK the other way a good AAM is required.
The big factor missing from the Iran/Iraq war was an IR AAM mounted on a helo (the Iranians mounted an AIM-9 on a Sea Cobra but seemingly never deplyed it). The A-A capability afforded by Stinger etc does make a suitably armed helo a much less attractive target; I do recall one TLT sortie where an AH in a fire position acquired a FJ on the radar, slaved the FLIR to it and would have had a possible shot if Stinger was fitted..cue lots of rumbling from the FJ community.
The bottom line is that a small degree of training can make a RW platform difficult for a FJ to successfully engage. For a high PK the other way a good AAM is required.
Yes, Him
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: West Sussex, UK
Posts: 2,689
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've seen pictures of a USMC CH-53 shooting a Sidewinder sometime in the late 80s, don't know if it hit anything or even if it was just to test that launching was feasible, ie no target.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: england
Age: 61
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
on a related note RED AIR c130s had good hits on BLUE f15-f16s, with camera footage to rub it in.
BLUE guy slides up behind for nice, close gun kill and is lit up by a nice bright hand strobe from the herky ramp.
on debrief RED AIR remind fast guys they are supposed to be an12 CUBS and armed with a rear cannon!!!
red faces all round!!!
BLUE guy slides up behind for nice, close gun kill and is lit up by a nice bright hand strobe from the herky ramp.
on debrief RED AIR remind fast guys they are supposed to be an12 CUBS and armed with a rear cannon!!!
red faces all round!!!
Cirrusf
The unit at Villacoublay outside Paris operates AS355 for that role. The Armee de l'Air doesn't and has never operated the Lynx only the Aeronavale in the French armed forces!
Btw back in the good old days of the Persian Gulf and Operation Prime Chance when the det of AH58D Warrior from 82nd replaced the TF160, the 58s were armed with Stinger. Rumour had that they engaged Iranian aircraft
according to Army Aviation by Hans
Halbertstadt published 1989 by Presidio books
The unit at Villacoublay outside Paris operates AS355 for that role. The Armee de l'Air doesn't and has never operated the Lynx only the Aeronavale in the French armed forces!
Btw back in the good old days of the Persian Gulf and Operation Prime Chance when the det of AH58D Warrior from 82nd replaced the TF160, the 58s were armed with Stinger. Rumour had that they engaged Iranian aircraft
according to Army Aviation by Hans
Halbertstadt published 1989 by Presidio books
Join Date: May 2006
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agusta A109 with AIM9s
There was an amusing photo in AirForces Monthly a while back, taken at a gathering at some continental airbase. The French had a Helicopter on display (Eurocopter Tiger?) which was apparently sporting a brace of AAMs.
Not to be outdone, the Belgians rigged up a dummy Sidewinder on the left hand weapons pylon of their A109.
Not to be outdone, the Belgians rigged up a dummy Sidewinder on the left hand weapons pylon of their A109.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Age: 61
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I read a feature (Flypast?) recently about a civvy-crewed Huey shooting down a brace of An-2s in somewhere like Vietnam. The incident was hushed up as the Huey wasn't officially there, according to the story.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
West Coast,
Afraid not old chap. As discovered by the Germans in WW2 a well flown helo at low level is a very hard target for guns. Does an F14 want to slow down for BFM against a helo, esp one with a M134/M3M in the door? No, because the helo will out-turn it all day long (or until the F14 runs out of gas or is chased off by a friendly CAP). So the F14 unloads and extends out for a heater shot, only to find that re-acquiring the helo either visually or on radar is a LOT harder than he/she thought. Assuming that the helo is acquired the Heater engagement depends a lot on the quality of the IR AAM, the background IR clutter and the IRCM/DAS/IRSS fitted to the helo. Tactics can also be employed to significantly reduce the PK of the IR shot. Against most western RW DAS you would need to be packing a mighty good IR AAM for a high PK shot. However, what of the mighty AWG-9 / AIM-54 combo? Agreed, against a non-RWR fitted platform flown by non-EW aware crews (as proved in the Iran/Iraq war) the RF shot is a potent weapon. However, most radars have their weaknesses and the AWG-9 is no different and it can be beaten by a combination of chaff, terrain masking and manoeuvre. Finally, does a FJ pilot want to use his best self defence weapon (IR AAM) or expensive long-arm (RF AAM) against a helo? Depends on the mission I guess. The Iraqi helos shot down during GW1 were downed by CAS ac with spare ordnance (LGB/Cannon) and they were tactically inept and technologically deficient.
Before you ask, I have done an awful lot of Helo v Fighter instruction and training against a variety of FJ ac, from Alfa Jet/Hawk to Typhoon/F15 and have proved that the right kit and training make a helo a very difficult target to kill, particularly in a short opportunistic engagement. Interestingly, one of the points I used to emphasise to my studes was to use the FJ pilot's natural overconfidence against them....see Mr Fish's comment for a perfect example!
Afraid not old chap. As discovered by the Germans in WW2 a well flown helo at low level is a very hard target for guns. Does an F14 want to slow down for BFM against a helo, esp one with a M134/M3M in the door? No, because the helo will out-turn it all day long (or until the F14 runs out of gas or is chased off by a friendly CAP). So the F14 unloads and extends out for a heater shot, only to find that re-acquiring the helo either visually or on radar is a LOT harder than he/she thought. Assuming that the helo is acquired the Heater engagement depends a lot on the quality of the IR AAM, the background IR clutter and the IRCM/DAS/IRSS fitted to the helo. Tactics can also be employed to significantly reduce the PK of the IR shot. Against most western RW DAS you would need to be packing a mighty good IR AAM for a high PK shot. However, what of the mighty AWG-9 / AIM-54 combo? Agreed, against a non-RWR fitted platform flown by non-EW aware crews (as proved in the Iran/Iraq war) the RF shot is a potent weapon. However, most radars have their weaknesses and the AWG-9 is no different and it can be beaten by a combination of chaff, terrain masking and manoeuvre. Finally, does a FJ pilot want to use his best self defence weapon (IR AAM) or expensive long-arm (RF AAM) against a helo? Depends on the mission I guess. The Iraqi helos shot down during GW1 were downed by CAS ac with spare ordnance (LGB/Cannon) and they were tactically inept and technologically deficient.
Before you ask, I have done an awful lot of Helo v Fighter instruction and training against a variety of FJ ac, from Alfa Jet/Hawk to Typhoon/F15 and have proved that the right kit and training make a helo a very difficult target to kill, particularly in a short opportunistic engagement. Interestingly, one of the points I used to emphasise to my studes was to use the FJ pilot's natural overconfidence against them....see Mr Fish's comment for a perfect example!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: bored
Posts: 532
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Evalua8or, to extend that discourse, could you elaborate why the French have A2A Helicopter defence of Paris against light-aircraft threat, whereas UK has not (as far as I know)?
Presumably UK either does not regard light aircraft as a threat, or relies on FJ cover? Would FJ be able to reliably destroy a light aircraft intent on targeting a politically significant target in London, without casually endangering the public?
Presumably UK either does not regard light aircraft as a threat, or relies on FJ cover? Would FJ be able to reliably destroy a light aircraft intent on targeting a politically significant target in London, without casually endangering the public?
Last edited by CirrusF; 6th Jan 2009 at 19:38.
HMG won't afford it - until it might perhaps prove too late - meanwhile those Frenchmen will.
By the way, why is it 'helo' and not 'heli'? Does this stem from the misconception that the proper term is spelled 'helocopter'? Sorry - but it's always puzzled me.
By the way, why is it 'helo' and not 'heli'? Does this stem from the misconception that the proper term is spelled 'helocopter'? Sorry - but it's always puzzled me.