Your ideal Airforce.
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Backwards PLT
F117- It's available now, combat proven & relatively cheap compared to the F35. Think of the other things you could spend the money on if you had an effective 'stealth striker' in the bag?
Is it stated policy anywhere that the F117 IS being replaced by the F35? The USAF managed to keep the "Wobbling Goblin' secret for 10 years before they needed to admit its existence. How do we know that a 'Son of Stealth' isn't lurking around Groom Lake or Tonopah? The USAF constructed enough to make a squadron then, how can anyone say for definite that they haven't done it again?
F117- It's available now, combat proven & relatively cheap compared to the F35. Think of the other things you could spend the money on if you had an effective 'stealth striker' in the bag?
Is it stated policy anywhere that the F117 IS being replaced by the F35? The USAF managed to keep the "Wobbling Goblin' secret for 10 years before they needed to admit its existence. How do we know that a 'Son of Stealth' isn't lurking around Groom Lake or Tonopah? The USAF constructed enough to make a squadron then, how can anyone say for definite that they haven't done it again?
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Time to open myself up to more ridicule, but i'm bored, so here goes...
Tanker - Airbus A330 MRTT
EW/ELINT & AWACS - E3 Sentry (if it ain't broke...)
Transport - C-5, C-17 and C-130 (best in the world esp the C17)
Air Defence - Typhoon (getting it anyway, and its good)
Tactical Strike/Ground Attack - Gripen/GR4
Strategic Strike - B1's (i'd rather have B2's but the B1's are positively small change compared to the $835million a B2 costs
)
CAS- Gripen (cheap to buy and maintain multi-roler good for other jobs too)
Recce- UAV's and GR4's
Helicopters- Give the 'Battlefield Lifters' to the Army but make sure that there are at least 3 full chinook squadrons, and 2 Merlin
Maritime- Give the Nimrods & SAR helicopters to the Navy - its their bag after all.
FAA - Navalise the Gripen, cheaper than F35's, far more capable of operating on rought short runways, plus greater capability than a GR9.
Strongly agree with dedicated hospitals near capable 'AirHeads'
A complete overhaul of the rank structure, to alleviate the top-heaviness of the force...
NB I saw the Shackleton mentioned in that list....'the best thing about hearing a Shackleton taking off, is that your not on it' - flying in it being likened to being in a tin shed in a hurricane. Amusing...
Tanker - Airbus A330 MRTT
EW/ELINT & AWACS - E3 Sentry (if it ain't broke...)
Transport - C-5, C-17 and C-130 (best in the world esp the C17)
Air Defence - Typhoon (getting it anyway, and its good)
Tactical Strike/Ground Attack - Gripen/GR4
Strategic Strike - B1's (i'd rather have B2's but the B1's are positively small change compared to the $835million a B2 costs
)CAS- Gripen (cheap to buy and maintain multi-roler good for other jobs too)
Recce- UAV's and GR4's
Helicopters- Give the 'Battlefield Lifters' to the Army but make sure that there are at least 3 full chinook squadrons, and 2 Merlin
Maritime- Give the Nimrods & SAR helicopters to the Navy - its their bag after all.
FAA - Navalise the Gripen, cheaper than F35's, far more capable of operating on rought short runways, plus greater capability than a GR9.
Strongly agree with dedicated hospitals near capable 'AirHeads'
A complete overhaul of the rank structure, to alleviate the top-heaviness of the force...
NB I saw the Shackleton mentioned in that list....'the best thing about hearing a Shackleton taking off, is that your not on it' - flying in it being likened to being in a tin shed in a hurricane. Amusing...
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Tanker/Transporter etc A330F + VIP pallet for HMG
C-17B
A400
C-27J
CSAR Merlin
Air Defence/Strike Typhoon
Interdiction/Strike F15E+
EW GR4 (EW)
Global Hawk for I spy type stuff
Predator for reaching out and touching someone type stuff
MR4 for RN
Rafael for RN
Hawkeye 2000 for RN
NH90 to replace Sea King
FLynx
Chooks and Merlins to AAC
NH90
FLynx
Twin Otter 400
PC21
Hawk 129
Beech 400
Beech 350
EC135
C-17B
A400
C-27J
CSAR Merlin
Air Defence/Strike Typhoon
Interdiction/Strike F15E+
EW GR4 (EW)
Global Hawk for I spy type stuff
Predator for reaching out and touching someone type stuff
MR4 for RN
Rafael for RN
Hawkeye 2000 for RN
NH90 to replace Sea King
FLynx
Chooks and Merlins to AAC
NH90
FLynx
Twin Otter 400
PC21
Hawk 129
Beech 400
Beech 350
EC135
I think this thread should be titled 'Your Ideal Navy' looking at these posts.
In which case - Junglies/Soggy Moggy's and Harrier to RAF (almost there)
Lynz/Gazelle to AAC
In which case - Junglies/Soggy Moggy's and Harrier to RAF (almost there)
Lynz/Gazelle to AAC
My ideal air force
*Within type squadrons always 1 x for conversion type training)
Multirole
8 x Sqn of F/A-18E/F (x 2 for AD, x 2 potentially to offer as coalition carrier ops on USN CVN and probably France Aeronavale so need crews to carrier trained) and 15 a/c per sqn.
CAS
8 x Sqn of x BaE/Boeing AV-8B Harrier II Plus and Harrier II preferably crews cross trained for carrier ops with rotations on carriers.
4 x Sqn of Hawk 100 for CAS
2 x Sqn of Reaper UCAV
Transport and Tankers
Mix and match of 10 x Sqn with Boeing C-17A and Lockheed C-130H/J (preferably 1 x SF Sqn and aforementioned a/c equipped with FLIR, advanced ECM fit and tanking capabilities for the Harrier and some rotary wing force)
5 x sqn Airbus MRTT
1 x Sqn of VIP with Airbus A340, Bombardier, Boeing 737BBJ, Bombardier Global Express and AW-101 and EC-135P2
Rotary Wing (my favourite!!)
10 x Sqn of AgustaWestland AW-101 Merlin with 2 x sqn assigned to SF and CSAR/JPR however in effect all be equipped with AAR
10 x Sqn of Sikorsky UH-60M Blackhawk for the shorter medium lift and SF support
2 x Sq of Eurocopter EC-635 for liaison, VIP, emergency response.
Maritime Role
5 x Sqn of Boeing P-8A and P-3C Orion
6 x Sqn of red/white/yellow/black painted DEDICATED to civilian and military SAR
ISTAR
3 x Sqn Boeing E-3D Sentry
1 x Sqn of Sentinel R.1
5 x Sqn of Raytheon King Air 200 ELINT
2 x Sqn Global Hawk
Training:
EFTS:Cessna 172 x 4 sqn
Basic: Pilatus PC-9M x 6 Sqn
Fast Jet: BAe Hawk Lead In Flight Trainer x 4 Sqn
Rotary Wing Basic: Eurocopter EC-120B x 1 Sqn
Rotary Wing Advanced: Eurocopter EC-135 X 1 Sqn
Multi engine: Raytheon King Air 200 and Hawker 800
Officer training,
Leave it at 6 months, but maybe extra month with more emphasis on counter insurgency COIN and low intensity conflict and security
Flying Training:
6 weeks EFTS, 9 months basic (though rotary wing and multi engine can escape this route and go straight to rotary wing and multi engine)
Fast Jet: 1 .5 years include basic weapons application and delivery.
Rotary Wing Basic, 6 months
Rotary Wing Advance 6 months
Multi Engine: 8 months
OCU to Combat ready
Dependant on type but between 6 months to a year
Armament
Fixed wing
ASRAAM
AIM-120 AMRAAM
GAU-3M cannon
Paveway IV and JDAM
Maverick AGM-65
SLAM/Harpoon
CRV-7
Aden cannon
AGM-114 Hellfire
Brimstone
General purpose bombs
Depth charges
Rotary Wing
GPMG 7.62MM
M134 GAU rotary gun
Stinger twin launchers
For pure AA/AD
Patriot and Rapier and hand held Stingers.
Bases
Like the present structure but with more at each, and re open some disused such as Sculthorpe, Bentwaters (mix of SAR force and Support and maybe SF and F/A-18EF). More assets at places like Wyton, Wittering,
More Super Hornets deployed frequently to Germany, Iceland, Baltic Sates as well as Cyprus and Gib. Plus frequent training with USN for carrier ops and with USMC for Harrier ops and detach squadrons and assigned crews to a CVN or LHA
Uniforms:
Keep it the same, more encouraging for females to wear skirts (barely black hosiery as well or glossy) employed at duties in office, desk, level otherwise DPMs, preferably multi purpose...urban camou/ with hint of sand.
Wings; well sorry to say but like the USAF/USN/USMC/USN..can we have the NCO aircrew, WSops TO HAVE WINGS like their pilot brethren but with either the letter N, AE, IN for intel/linguistic) with the wings.
And of course grow bags as primary uniform for aircrews irrespective of role and be worn daily execpt for special occasions and important meets with the top brass from HQ.
*Within type squadrons always 1 x for conversion type training)
Multirole
8 x Sqn of F/A-18E/F (x 2 for AD, x 2 potentially to offer as coalition carrier ops on USN CVN and probably France Aeronavale so need crews to carrier trained) and 15 a/c per sqn.
CAS
8 x Sqn of x BaE/Boeing AV-8B Harrier II Plus and Harrier II preferably crews cross trained for carrier ops with rotations on carriers.
4 x Sqn of Hawk 100 for CAS
2 x Sqn of Reaper UCAV
Transport and Tankers
Mix and match of 10 x Sqn with Boeing C-17A and Lockheed C-130H/J (preferably 1 x SF Sqn and aforementioned a/c equipped with FLIR, advanced ECM fit and tanking capabilities for the Harrier and some rotary wing force)
5 x sqn Airbus MRTT
1 x Sqn of VIP with Airbus A340, Bombardier, Boeing 737BBJ, Bombardier Global Express and AW-101 and EC-135P2
Rotary Wing (my favourite!!)
10 x Sqn of AgustaWestland AW-101 Merlin with 2 x sqn assigned to SF and CSAR/JPR however in effect all be equipped with AAR
10 x Sqn of Sikorsky UH-60M Blackhawk for the shorter medium lift and SF support
2 x Sq of Eurocopter EC-635 for liaison, VIP, emergency response.
Maritime Role
5 x Sqn of Boeing P-8A and P-3C Orion
6 x Sqn of red/white/yellow/black painted DEDICATED to civilian and military SAR
ISTAR
3 x Sqn Boeing E-3D Sentry
1 x Sqn of Sentinel R.1
5 x Sqn of Raytheon King Air 200 ELINT
2 x Sqn Global Hawk
Training:
EFTS:Cessna 172 x 4 sqn
Basic: Pilatus PC-9M x 6 Sqn
Fast Jet: BAe Hawk Lead In Flight Trainer x 4 Sqn
Rotary Wing Basic: Eurocopter EC-120B x 1 Sqn
Rotary Wing Advanced: Eurocopter EC-135 X 1 Sqn
Multi engine: Raytheon King Air 200 and Hawker 800
Officer training,
Leave it at 6 months, but maybe extra month with more emphasis on counter insurgency COIN and low intensity conflict and security
Flying Training:
6 weeks EFTS, 9 months basic (though rotary wing and multi engine can escape this route and go straight to rotary wing and multi engine)
Fast Jet: 1 .5 years include basic weapons application and delivery.
Rotary Wing Basic, 6 months
Rotary Wing Advance 6 months
Multi Engine: 8 months
OCU to Combat ready
Dependant on type but between 6 months to a year
Armament
Fixed wing
ASRAAM
AIM-120 AMRAAM
GAU-3M cannon
Paveway IV and JDAM
Maverick AGM-65
SLAM/Harpoon
CRV-7
Aden cannon
AGM-114 Hellfire
Brimstone
General purpose bombs
Depth charges
Rotary Wing
GPMG 7.62MM
M134 GAU rotary gun
Stinger twin launchers
For pure AA/AD
Patriot and Rapier and hand held Stingers.
Bases
Like the present structure but with more at each, and re open some disused such as Sculthorpe, Bentwaters (mix of SAR force and Support and maybe SF and F/A-18EF). More assets at places like Wyton, Wittering,
More Super Hornets deployed frequently to Germany, Iceland, Baltic Sates as well as Cyprus and Gib. Plus frequent training with USN for carrier ops and with USMC for Harrier ops and detach squadrons and assigned crews to a CVN or LHA
Uniforms:
Keep it the same, more encouraging for females to wear skirts (barely black hosiery as well or glossy) employed at duties in office, desk, level otherwise DPMs, preferably multi purpose...urban camou/ with hint of sand.
Wings; well sorry to say but like the USAF/USN/USMC/USN..can we have the NCO aircrew, WSops TO HAVE WINGS like their pilot brethren but with either the letter N, AE, IN for intel/linguistic) with the wings.
And of course grow bags as primary uniform for aircrews irrespective of role and be worn daily execpt for special occasions and important meets with the top brass from HQ.
Chopper,
try telling Percy your binning the Chinook in favour of Merlin's/Blackhawks and Eurocopters.
All 3 are capable aircraft, but you have no heavylift capability. And also no mention of AH. Is that a deliberate ommission in order to leave them in the hands of the AAC? I could see the sense in that.
Or just an ommission?
How about.....
RAF
4 x Sqns CH47 (including 1 SF and a maritime flight of RM embedded for 3 Cdo Bde sppt)
4 x Blackhawk Sqns (including a maritime flight of RM embedded for 3 Cdo Bde Sppt)
2 x Merlin Sqns (202 and 22)
Army
6 x AH64 Sqns
2 x Blackhawk Sqns (replace Bell 212/LUH Lynx role +commonality with SH)
4 x Kiowa Recce
1 x Littlebird Sqn (SF Sppt)
Navy
2 x Merlin Pinger Sqns
2 x Merlin Utility Sqns (SAR)
And a fleet of military squirrels and increased fleet of Bell 412 for all 3 services use up to end of MEARW.
try telling Percy your binning the Chinook in favour of Merlin's/Blackhawks and Eurocopters.
All 3 are capable aircraft, but you have no heavylift capability. And also no mention of AH. Is that a deliberate ommission in order to leave them in the hands of the AAC? I could see the sense in that.
Or just an ommission?
How about.....
RAF
4 x Sqns CH47 (including 1 SF and a maritime flight of RM embedded for 3 Cdo Bde sppt)
4 x Blackhawk Sqns (including a maritime flight of RM embedded for 3 Cdo Bde Sppt)
2 x Merlin Sqns (202 and 22)
Army
6 x AH64 Sqns
2 x Blackhawk Sqns (replace Bell 212/LUH Lynx role +commonality with SH)
4 x Kiowa Recce
1 x Littlebird Sqn (SF Sppt)
Navy
2 x Merlin Pinger Sqns
2 x Merlin Utility Sqns (SAR)
And a fleet of military squirrels and increased fleet of Bell 412 for all 3 services use up to end of MEARW.
Last edited by minigundiplomat; 23rd Dec 2008 at 13:08.
Gainesy/Gee Ram,
"replicate the RAF of 1974 or 75?"
Are you mad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was a part of THAT Air Force. Seeing as it's principal task was to defend against a conventional Warpact thrust across Central Germany with all the UK AD and maritime associated tasks, I would say that it was woefully inadequate, FAR more inadequate for it's main role than the current lot.
NO hardened facilities, no HAS, all flight lines nice and neat for anyone who cared to take a pop.
NO war stocks; fuel, munitions, spares etc for about 4 days use. AAM etc even less.......
A strike force of tired Vulcans, 100% committed to tactical nuclear SACEUR use in the event of hostilities.
A small tactical strike force with 10% held back for theatre tac nuke use in RAFG.
A tiny AD force of 5 frightening and 1 solitary F-4 squadrons that would have been hard put to defend Lincolnshire let alone the UKAD.
NO heavylift SH, largest SH we had was the Wessex, 1 solitary Sqn per theatre.
Short range SAR Whirlwinds everywhere.
Finally, a tactical dogma that was an embarassement to all concerned.
Take off the rose tinted glasses, please!
"replicate the RAF of 1974 or 75?"
Are you mad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was a part of THAT Air Force. Seeing as it's principal task was to defend against a conventional Warpact thrust across Central Germany with all the UK AD and maritime associated tasks, I would say that it was woefully inadequate, FAR more inadequate for it's main role than the current lot.
NO hardened facilities, no HAS, all flight lines nice and neat for anyone who cared to take a pop.
NO war stocks; fuel, munitions, spares etc for about 4 days use. AAM etc even less.......
A strike force of tired Vulcans, 100% committed to tactical nuclear SACEUR use in the event of hostilities.
A small tactical strike force with 10% held back for theatre tac nuke use in RAFG.
A tiny AD force of 5 frightening and 1 solitary F-4 squadrons that would have been hard put to defend Lincolnshire let alone the UKAD.
NO heavylift SH, largest SH we had was the Wessex, 1 solitary Sqn per theatre.
Short range SAR Whirlwinds everywhere.
Finally, a tactical dogma that was an embarassement to all concerned.
Take off the rose tinted glasses, please!
Minigundiplomat
Havent mentioned the AAC and FAA yet!!
Anyhow I said the Eurocopter EC-135 for liaison/VIp never mentioned anything heavier. What on my list was the Merlin!!
More to come
Havent mentioned the AAC and FAA yet!!
Anyhow I said the Eurocopter EC-135 for liaison/VIp never mentioned anything heavier. What on my list was the Merlin!!
More to come
Originally Posted by pr00ne
Gainesy/Gee Ram,
"replicate the RAF of 1974 or 75?"
Are you mad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was a part of THAT Air Force. Seeing as it's principal task was to defend against a conventional Warpact thrust across Central Germany with all the UK AD and maritime associated tasks, I would say that it was woefully inadequate, FAR more inadequate for it's main role than the current lot.
NO hardened facilities, no HAS, all flight lines nice and neat for anyone who cared to take a pop.
NO war stocks; fuel, munitions, spares etc for about 4 days use. AAM etc even less.......
A strike force of tired Vulcans, 100% committed to tactical nuclear SACEUR use in the event of hostilities.
A small tactical strike force with 10% held back for theatre tac nuke use in RAFG.
A tiny AD force of 5 frightening and 1 solitary F-4 squadrons that would have been hard put to defend Lincolnshire let alone the UKAD.
NO heavylift SH, largest SH we had was the Wessex, 1 solitary Sqn per theatre.
Short range SAR Whirlwinds everywhere.
Finally, a tactical dogma that was an embarassement to all concerned.
Take off the rose tinted glasses, please!
"replicate the RAF of 1974 or 75?"
Are you mad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was a part of THAT Air Force. Seeing as it's principal task was to defend against a conventional Warpact thrust across Central Germany with all the UK AD and maritime associated tasks, I would say that it was woefully inadequate, FAR more inadequate for it's main role than the current lot.
NO hardened facilities, no HAS, all flight lines nice and neat for anyone who cared to take a pop.
NO war stocks; fuel, munitions, spares etc for about 4 days use. AAM etc even less.......
A strike force of tired Vulcans, 100% committed to tactical nuclear SACEUR use in the event of hostilities.
A small tactical strike force with 10% held back for theatre tac nuke use in RAFG.
A tiny AD force of 5 frightening and 1 solitary F-4 squadrons that would have been hard put to defend Lincolnshire let alone the UKAD.
NO heavylift SH, largest SH we had was the Wessex, 1 solitary Sqn per theatre.
Short range SAR Whirlwinds everywhere.
Finally, a tactical dogma that was an embarassement to all concerned.
Take off the rose tinted glasses, please!
Gainsey mentioned 1975, and I just posted my reply on a "you mean this?" basis....
I assumed he meant in terms of it's size then, not advocating using actual types and structure of the service of then, but today, which would of course be a bit nuts......
Army Aviation
1 x regiment = 4 Sqns Sqn = 3 Flights, Flight = 4 x a/c
10 x AH Regiments of AgustaWestland W/AH-64D Longbow
15 x Heavy Lift Regiments of Boeing CH-47F
20 x Utility Regiments of UH-60M or in revitalising the dead, WS-70 with RTM engines
10 x ISTAR Squadrons with Predator and Hermes and Watchkeeper and Firescout and King Air 200
1 x VIP Flt with Hawker 800XP and VIP plush interior EC-135
1 x Communications Liaison Regiment with King Air 200 and 1900D
1 x SF Regiment with MH-60, WS-70 and Predator and EC-635
3 x Training regiments with EC-635 and EC-120B and Cessna 172
1 x regiment = 4 Sqns Sqn = 3 Flights, Flight = 4 x a/c
10 x AH Regiments of AgustaWestland W/AH-64D Longbow
15 x Heavy Lift Regiments of Boeing CH-47F
20 x Utility Regiments of UH-60M or in revitalising the dead, WS-70 with RTM engines
10 x ISTAR Squadrons with Predator and Hermes and Watchkeeper and Firescout and King Air 200
1 x VIP Flt with Hawker 800XP and VIP plush interior EC-135
1 x Communications Liaison Regiment with King Air 200 and 1900D
1 x SF Regiment with MH-60, WS-70 and Predator and EC-635
3 x Training regiments with EC-635 and EC-120B and Cessna 172
Minigundiplomat
Of course in an ideal world and fantasy there would be a very large army!!
Last but not least Naval Aviation
8 x Sqn of AV8B and Plus II with the same armament as my air force
5 x Sqn of MH-60R for ASW/ASUW and general tasks, pref armed with Hellfire and Penguin all destroyer and frigate based
*sqn size = x 10 a/c*
10 x Sqn of MH-60S for Vertrep/ Special Ops, CSAR, Plane guard. equally armed with Hellfire and rotary cannon, and rocket pods
6 x Sqn of AW101 ASH for Marines support
3 x Sqn of AW-101 AEW
(The latter above same as what Italian Navy uses)
Fixed wing support in form of CN-235, King Air 200, and Guflstream V for VIP
Training, EC-120B and EC-135 and King Air 200 and Citation (latter for multi engine and NFO/TACO)
UAV; Firescout
Of course in an ideal world and fantasy there would be a very large army!!
Last but not least Naval Aviation
8 x Sqn of AV8B and Plus II with the same armament as my air force
5 x Sqn of MH-60R for ASW/ASUW and general tasks, pref armed with Hellfire and Penguin all destroyer and frigate based
*sqn size = x 10 a/c*
10 x Sqn of MH-60S for Vertrep/ Special Ops, CSAR, Plane guard. equally armed with Hellfire and rotary cannon, and rocket pods
6 x Sqn of AW101 ASH for Marines support
3 x Sqn of AW-101 AEW
(The latter above same as what Italian Navy uses)
Fixed wing support in form of CN-235, King Air 200, and Guflstream V for VIP
Training, EC-120B and EC-135 and King Air 200 and Citation (latter for multi engine and NFO/TACO)
UAV; Firescout
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You can have all the hardware in the world, but you need to look after the human interface that operates it first. Compared to the post march on Downing Street (By wives & familes) (1978ish) todays caring sharing heirarchy are pretty poor in the leadership, terms and conditions departments. As it happens, pre '78 was pretty punk to, and the halcyon days were but short lived before financial constraint set in at about the same time as Gulf War part one.
We are still some way off fighting wars with umanned computer operated gadgets that require no human involvement. I am sure a Sci-Fi writer would have a field day with the theory though.
We are still some way off fighting wars with umanned computer operated gadgets that require no human involvement. I am sure a Sci-Fi writer would have a field day with the theory though.
chopper2004,
"Of course in an ideal world and fantasy there would be a very large army!!"
What kind of wierd world do you live in? Surely in an ideal world there would be NO armies, anywhere?
I dread to think what you get up to if your FANTASY is, a large Army...........
"Of course in an ideal world and fantasy there would be a very large army!!"
What kind of wierd world do you live in? Surely in an ideal world there would be NO armies, anywhere?
I dread to think what you get up to if your FANTASY is, a large Army...........
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Theodore Roosevelt had it right: "Speak softly and carry a big stick."
When planning your perfect RAF - and, while you're at it, the Royal Navy and the Army - bear that in mind and you won't go far wrong.
When planning your perfect RAF - and, while you're at it, the Royal Navy and the Army - bear that in mind and you won't go far wrong.
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Gen J D R
F-117 was of course retired from the USAF earlier this year, but no doubt there are a few in good flying condition. I'm with you, there has to be something coming out of Area 51, "Aurora" having been the speculation for ~20years. More recently the "Bird of prey" was an interesting concept, advertised as a one-off, like we believe that story . Personally, my favourite that did provide excellent service is the SR-71 Blackbird.
Is it stated policy anywhere that the F117 IS being replaced by the F35? The USAF managed to keep the "Wobbling Goblin' secret for 10 years before they needed to admit its existence. How do we know that a 'Son of Stealth' isn't lurking around Groom Lake or Tonopah? The USAF constructed enough to make a squadron then, how can anyone say for definite that they haven't done it again?"
. Personally, my favourite that did provide excellent service is the SR-71 Blackbird.
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Overall, chopper2004's defence procurement plans are sensible policies for a happier Britain, but what's this?????
EFTS:Cessna 172 x 4 sqn
I ain't spending my working day sitting next to students in that piece of Spam scrap. It handles like a Routemaster bus and doesn't even go upside down... Must try harder!
How about the big-engined retractable Grob trainer instead? Oh hang on.....
EFTS:Cessna 172 x 4 sqn
I ain't spending my working day sitting next to students in that piece of Spam scrap. It handles like a Routemaster bus and doesn't even go upside down... Must try harder!
How about the big-engined retractable Grob trainer instead? Oh hang on.....